Josh and Anna 57: Singing the I'm Stuck in the SHU Blues

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

 

[Hera]

I wouldn’t expect anything to change for Anna soon. Humans are remarkably able to adapt to new circumstances, even crap ones and Anna has no reason to make any changes now. (I mean, I know most people would think she does, but from her POV, she doesn’t think so.)

Maybe once Josh gets out? Especially if he’s  clear he’s checked out of their marriage and starts (openly) cheating or drinking or whatnot. But even then, Anna may just “accept the lot in life God have her” and be the long-suffering martyred wife of a sinner. 

[Coconut Flan]

WOACB had quite a bit to say about Josh yesterday and some of it is in contradiction to The Ashley's version of events:

https://www.theashleysrealityroundup.com/2023/03/20/exclusive-josh-duggar-released-from-prison-shu-early-after-living-with-transgender-cellmate/

 

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

The Ashleys article is confusing to me in the sense that they’re talking about ‘Joe Dirty’ who’s trans with he pronouns. The way I read it, I thought they were saying Joe is a trans man, but then in the next breath they’re talking about makeup being on the commissary list for trans inmates (I’m assuming they mean MTF).

WOACB reports Josh being close to a trans woman inmate (that it’s possibly a prison affair).

I realize this is all allegations and hearsay, but I find it interesting that Josh is now closely housed with people he didn’t believe existed (trans people). Sadly he’s likely to hold onto his smug hateful worldview and not learn anything.

Edited March 21 by VeryNikeSeamstress

[Satan'sFortress]

From @Expectopatronus last thread:

Quote

Preschool might not be an option. My daughter got her rejection letter from pre-k Friday. She’s three (Dec birthday) and they screened her in February for a September start. They think she’s not smart enough to start on time. My mom heart is breaking because she was so excited at the open house and really wanted to go to school. 

My mama heart breaks too. ❤️ Poor lamb. But I hope no one believes your daughter isn't smart enough for Pre-K.  They might have felt that she just wasn't ready quite yet based on criteria that have nothing to do with "smart."  September is so far away--I wonder if they'd consider doing a re-evaluation? Maybe you'll find some school-like activities she could do that will help make her feel like she's growing into big girl territory. 

[Cate32]

I thought the only requirement for preschool is that the child is potty trained. That seems very strange to me that a preschool would do a screening, I thought they only did that for kindergarten.

[patsymae]

3 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

From @Expectopatronus last thread:

My mama heart breaks too. ❤️ Poor lamb. But I hope no one believes your daughter isn't smart enough for Pre-K.  They might have felt that she just wasn't ready quite yet based on criteria that have nothing to do with "smart."  September is so far away--I wonder if they'd consider doing a re-evaluation? Maybe you'll find some school-like activities she could do that will help make her feel like she's growing into big girl territory. 

What distrurbs me most about this is a rejection letter--WTF? Reminds me of an old Tracey Ullman skit from back in the Yuppie days where all the kids auditioned for preschool and some did things like translate Shakespeare into French or something and hers sang "The Itsy Bitsy Spider."
But aside from that, there's nothing wrong with waiting. It's not about how "smart" you are. It can just be developmental appropriateness. I was born in December and went into first grade in a Catholic school in first grade at age 5 (no preschool) because the public school would have made me wait. I should have waited. Because no matter how smart you are, you're still the age you are. For example, when they changed the configuration of schools, I was a 9 year old, the youngest student in what was now a middle school--had to change classes, keep things in lockers, adapt to 6 different teachers every day. I floundered at times. At one conference the guidance counselor told my mother I was very immature for an 11-year-old. Well, duh? I was 9.
which is to say it's no matter how smart a kid is, doing things faster isn't always, or IMO often, the best way to go.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

7 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

From @Expectopatronus last thread:

My mama heart breaks too. ❤️ Poor lamb. But I hope no one believes your daughter isn't smart enough for Pre-K.  They might have felt that she just wasn't ready quite yet based on criteria that have nothing to do with "smart."  September is so far away--I wonder if they'd consider doing a re-evaluation? Maybe you'll find some school-like activities she could do that will help make her feel like she's growing into big girl territory. 

I got one of those letters too.  When I was five.  I still remember quite a few details of the whole experience.

We moved from an area where first grade started at age five to a small town where first grade started at 6 with no kindergarten. So I had to see the district school psychologist. I still remember the room, the tests, some of the questions. We got a letter saying I was lacking leadership qualities (at age 5) and I would have to wait a year to start school.  (He missed the fact that I was also lacking follower qualities.)  

It was the right decision in my case, but it was communicated poorly. I should never have known what was going on and should not have grown up thinking I would never be a "leader" - whatever that means.  Some of it may have been on my parents, but I could read well enough at age five to puzzle some things out myself.

So it's probably not about intelligence; it's about maturity.  And the adults involved in such situations should keep in mind that little pitchers have big ears.

[SoSoNosy]

My brother and I were both November babies.  My mother started me in first grade at 5, and I flourished; the administration even wanted me to skip either third or fourth grade (which she didn't allow).  But she should have waited with my brother, he struggled all the way through and until we moved when he was in sixth grade, he had to put up with being compared to me.

[mango_fandango]

Damn, being rejected from preschool/pre-K sounds harsh!!

[Expectopatronus]

5 hours ago, Cate32 said:

I thought the only requirement for preschool is that the child is potty trained. That seems very strange to me that a preschool would do a screening, I thought they only did that for kindergarten.

Nope. They interviewed her and asked if she could accurately print all of her letters (she can’t), quizzed her on shapes and colours (she made two errors), asked about the ages of peers she plays with, extracurricular activities and separation anxiety. Um, my kid has a diagnosis of anxiety so yes, she cries in new environments. They won’t re-screen her. So we are out the $100 application fee. I can’t afford Montessori preschool and if I send her out of division to pre-k, it’s half time and $530/month. Daycare is about $500/month and I can’t afford $1000 every month in total. 

[Mama Mia]

8 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

Nope. They interviewed her and asked if she could accurately print all of her letters (she can’t), quizzed her on shapes and colours (she made two errors), asked about the ages of peers she plays with, extracurricular activities and separation anxiety. Um, my kid has a diagnosis of anxiety so yes, she cries in new environments. They won’t re-screen her. So we are out the $100 application fee. I can’t afford Montessori preschool and if I send her out of division to pre-k, it’s half time and $530/month. Daycare is about $500/month and I can’t afford $1000 every month in total. 

Honestly, and no offense if this is the type of education you had your heart set on — but there is no way in hell I’d want my kid, any of my kids, going to whatever school that is. The expectations are entirely developmentally inappropriate, and it won’t get better once they jump these hoops. Even  If you had a naturally academic, self-contained, extra focused child - they’ll be stressed by the pressure and won’t develop the other parts of their personality that come from play — and every other type of kid will just flounder. Not healthy at all and IMHO you dodged a bullet.  She’s a tiny child. Having tea parties, running outside, building with blocks and singing  along to silly songs  are FAR  more important activities for her long term development than rote memorization of anything. Throw in numbers and shapes and colors and letters as part of play, gradually, at home and daycare and you’re good. 

The importance of being developmentally ready for any particular thing is such a hard concept to not put a negative connotation on. But so incredibly important. There’s absolutely nothing innately “better” about being ready for school at 5 than needing an extra year and waiting until 6 (or whatever ages/situations apply). Currently we have a bunch of  kids in my family who had cusp birthdays —all are now tweens/teens . 1 had an absolutely nightmare time of it at full-day Kindergarten, mutually decided to have her do a year at the TK program — now does wonderfully. 1 completely thrived, and would have been a really bad decision to wait the year. 1 absolutely should have waited the year and struggles with school. 1 really could have gone either way and does ok. All just unique individuals as all people are. 

Even in other areas - like walking to the park, going into a store, sleepovers, using the stove, staying home alone — whatever it is — kids will be ready at different points - and sometimes you just need to try it out and see - but conveying that “ not ready quite yet, we tried, we’ll try again when you’re a little older”  isn’t a bad thing, it’s just neutral, is hard!  We give so much praise and feel so much pride when kids do anything early that it’s easy to forget that there’s nothing wrong with doing x thing later.
 

TLDR - that school sounds terrible. Your kid is fine
 

 

 

Edited March 22 by Mama Mia

[NoseyNellie]

@Expectopatronus I work in administration at a preschool and I field a lot of questions around registration.  We are PRE-school.. the goal is to help them prepare for SCHOOL!  So if you want a child to enroll in our 3 year old class the requirements are they must be 3 by Sept1 and they must be FULLY potty trained and wearing underwear( can handle all aspects-ups/downs of pants, wiping etc).  When people push me for more *requirements* I always tell them if you can teach your kid to blow their own nose into a tissue and cough into their elbow you will already be on the top of the teacher favorite list!  lol   NOW, we are a *typical* only preschool.  Our teachers are not specifically trained/educated to work with children with special needs, learning or behavioral disorders.  When we tour/register our 3 year olds and parents bring up concerns etc we are very upfront that we are open to and willing to enroll.  We start enrolling for fall in Jan/Feb so there is a LOT of developmental growth and change by the first week of September.  We are always upfront with parents about our limitations and are frank with them.  IF we have concerns or feel there may be things going on that we are not able to meet the educational needs of we will discuss them with the parent and walk along side you to get you in contact with the local school district and to advocate with you to get your child assessed and evaluated to see what services might be better for them.  When I tour parents I tell them that this is all about the best for the child.  Us encouraging parents to get the child into a different program only takes money away from us... our goal is the best for any/all children.  

 

[Cate32]

@Expectopatronus I’m sorry you are dealing with that, it sounds so stressful! I don’t think I’ve ever met a 3 year old who can print all their letters, that just seems like such a weird requirement. 

Edited March 22 by Cate32

[Bastet]

10 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

Nope. They interviewed her and asked if she could accurately print all of her letters (she can’t), quizzed her on shapes and colours (she made two errors), asked about the ages of peers she plays with, extracurricular activities and separation anxiety. Um, my kid has a diagnosis of anxiety so yes, she cries in new environments. They won’t re-screen her. So we are out the $100 application fee. I can’t afford Montessori preschool and if I send her out of division to pre-k, it’s half time and $530/month. Daycare is about $500/month and I can’t afford $1000 every month in total. 

  This is infuriating to me not just because of the trouble it is giving your family but because it is both ignorant and far too typical. Because American students weren’t doing well in academic achievement tests, the decision was made to just start academics earlier. First of all, many students are not developmentally ready for academics any earlier, and second,it contradicts international experience—all those countries that surpass us academically are not starting their students out earlier. Meanwhile, we under emphasize the things that really do help children be truly ready for academics. Grr!

[Gobsmacked]

First son was born on the cut off date. He was 10 days early. We kept him back so he started school with the other spring babies. Some crunchie Mums thought I was terrible and going to ruin his future!!!  He went off to school with 3 others from nursery so ended up with a ready made friend group also as one of the eldest in his year not the youngest. The best decision we made for him. Trust your own instincts. You know your child far better than an official with a tick form. 

[Coconut Flan]

It's outright crazy to expect three year olds to be writing their letters.  The majority aren't developmentally there.  Knowing colors is what three year old pre-school is there to BEGIN teaching.  Your child is probably better off not being in that pressure cooker.  

[viii]

18 hours ago, Cate32 said:

I thought the only requirement for preschool is that the child is potty trained. That seems very strange to me that a preschool would do a screening, I thought they only did that for kindergarten.

I live in Canada, so I think we do pre-school differently here from the US (and likely different from province to province). Where I live, our pre-k is ministry funded, which means the province pays for the spot. There are only sixteen spots available in each school, and there is an application form to fill out and then a committee meets and selects the students. 

Here, it's typically a good thing if your child is denied entrance into a school pre-k program. The pre-k spots here at the schools are typically for the students that are behind, in the hopes of catching them up in time for kindergarten. So those with behavioral issues, or speech delays, etc are given more of a priority. Of course, there is a great demand and so sixteen spots per school is not enough. There are a ton of private pre-schools and you have to pay for those. 

It's so interesting to see how different places work. 

[medimus]

What on earth do they plan to do in the preschool that needs a 3 year old to already be able to write letters before hand?

I like how they do it in Belgium (where I grew up). Primary school has two parts, you start at 2.5 years old, but don't really do anything explicitly academic until 6 when you start 1st grade (leerjaar, literal translation: learning year). The first 3-4 years (depending on when your birthday is) you learn practical skills, do lots of play based learning, drawing, singing, learning poems etc to develop oral language skills, attention, fine and gross motor skills, social skills, all those good things. The littlest kids start throughout the year as they turn 2.5, the only requirement is potty trained and even then obviously they expect some accidents. You can tell a 2 year old who goes to school from one who hasn't started yet by watching them put on their coat. The not yet at school child struggles to put its arms in and an adult helps, a school going child puts the coat down on the ground in front of them, puts their arms in the sleeves and flips it over their head. You don't have to start at 2.5, as it isn't compulsory until 5, but more than 95% of kids go (it's full days like the older kids too). I also likes that it takes the worry about when to start school away a bit as your child has already been in the school for years before going up to the academic classes, so it can be more of a discussion with the parents at any point. 

I think they're a bit more flexible now, but when I was in school my parents were actively discouraged from teaching me the alphabet or how to write or anything like that so it wouldn't interfere with the school teaching methods. We didn't even write our name before first grade or learn letter names (actually we never learnt letter names, just letter sounds). Though I still don't think any parents expect their children to be able to do any sort of reading or writing before 1st grade (at the start of the school year the youngest child would be 5y8m and the oldest 6y8m). It's fine, you're doing your job of being a child at that point.

Sorry that was really long!

[Alisamer]

They expected a THREE YEAR OLD to be able to write all the letters? That seems crazy to me. I think a lot of three year olds' fine motor skills aren't quite there yet, and they should be developing them by like playing with blocks and play-doh and coloring stuff. When you look at it in months they've not even been talking that long!

What is the pre-K teaching if they are expected to already know and be able to write the letters, and know all the shapes and colors? Isn't that stuff the majority of the "academic" part of pre-K? Along with teaching the things kids need to master to participate well in kindergarten - how and when to sit quietly, raising your hand to ask questions, following the school's schedule, sharing, taking turns, etc. 

When I taught daycare my kids were 6 weeks to 2 years, generally. We'd read to them, and name things, and point out colors and shapes and stuff, but it was in the course of play and everyday activities. 

[Bastet]

 Competitive parenting has played a role in bringing academics into preschool. If your friend has a three year old who is reading, you might worry if your own doesn’t recognize letters, and when it comes to choosing a preschool, you’ll want one that focuses on academics so your child does not “fall behind.”Schools have a role to play in educating parents about what kids really need, but instead they tend to knuckle under the pressure of parental expectations. 
  Historically Head Start has taken a developmental approach because it started in the educational establishment  of the the sixties which took as a given that poor and disabled children would benefit most from a range of developmental experiences and a rich verbal environment more than a narrow set of academic goals.  (This may have changed since I worked in Head Start, and likely always varied from school to school.)

[Cults-r-us]

On 3/21/2023 at 12:01 PM, VeryNikeSeamstress said:

The Ashleys article is confusing to me in the sense that they’re talking about ‘Joe Dirty’ who’s trans with he pronouns. The way I read it, I thought they were saying Joe is a trans man, but then in the next breath they’re talking about makeup being on the commissary list for trans inmates (I’m assuming they mean MTF).

WOACB reports Josh being close to a trans woman inmate (that it’s possibly a prison affair).

I realize this is all allegations and hearsay, but I find it interesting that Josh is now closely housed with people he didn’t believe existed (trans people). Sadly he’s likely to hold onto his smug hateful worldview and not learn anything.

I suspect the stories are getting mixed up. WOACB said Josh was the stinky, poor hygiene person. She alluded his "crush" was a trans person in another building that he is no longer allowed to see. She said even other inmates are disgusted by the way Josh  treats/talks about Anna.

 Anybody else feel cringey hearing KJ talk about stalking the jail and publishing gossip from inmate's family members? I bet Gil Bates thanks his lucky stars KJ latched onto the Duggars instead of his family.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

7 minutes ago, Cults-r-us said:

I suspect the stories are getting mixed up. WOACB said Josh was the stinky, poor hygiene person. She alluded his "crush" was a trans person in another building that he is no longer allowed to see. She said even other inmates are disgusted by the way Josh  treats/talks about Anna.

 Anybody else feel cringey hearing KJ talk about stalking the jail and publishing gossip from inmate's family members? I bet Gil Bates thanks his lucky stars KJ latched onto the Duggars instead of his family.

I'm not cringy about this specifically because we don't know who the alleged other inmates are and Josh gave up his right to personal privacy when he broke the law and was sent to prison.  

Which is not to say I respect KJ because she says questionable stuff that has not been vetted and her sources are rarely public.

Which is not to say Josh doesn't smell (he's looked like he does for a long time now) or that he's found romance with a trans woman (possible, but I tend to doubt it) or that he talks sexual smack about his wife and other women (I can see this for sure).

What bothers me is that she has unnamed sources that cannot be checked and then "news" outlets repeat what she says in other places on the world wide web, thereby giving KJ's suspect stories unjustified credibility. And it all becomes a vicious circle of possible/probable bullshit and no one ends up knowing what the truth really is.

[Cam]

I worked as an aide in an elementary for over ten years, including preschool for 3 year olds and 4 year olds (two separate groups of classes). For us, the main thing was teaching students to do things independently and learn to follow verbal instructions. At that age, many cannot put on their coat or take it off by themselves or zip/unzip their bookbags and get materials in and out of it, or open various items in their lunchbox. They develop self confidence as they master these simple skills. They are taught to recognize their name on their bin or cubby hole and put their school work in it, then at the end of the school day, get their bookbag, then put things from their cubby in it. They’re taught socialization, how to get along with others, how to sit, listen and pay attention at “carpet time” when the teacher uses large, colorful interactive charts to go over days of the week, months of the year, colors and shapes, and they learn to be quiet when she reads a book. They learn words to songs and how to take turns. There is emphasis on developing large motor skills, so lots of running, jumping, climbing tho the kids only know it as “play time”. Sure, letters and numbers are introduced and each student is taught to write their name, but not all are capable of it at that age. But, as one of my favorite sayings goes, “There are three ways you learn: repetition, repetition, repetition”. All of these things are helping children become comfortable within a school environment so they are better prepared for more structured school learning by the time they are older and entering kindergarten. “Pre” school. Self explanatory!

 

Edited March 23 by Cam

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

I worked as an aide in an elementary for over ten years, including preschool for 3 year olds and 4 year olds (two separate groups of classes). For us, the main thing was teaching students to do things independently and learn to follow verbal instructions. At that age, many cannot put on their coat or take it off by themselves or zip/unzip their bookbags and get materials in and out of it, or open various items in their lunchbox. They develop self confidence as they master these simple skills. They are taught to recognize their name on their bin or cubby hole and put their school work in it, then at the end of the school day, get their bookbag, then put things from their cubby in it. They’re taught socialization, how to get along with others, how to sit, listen and pay attention at “carpet time” when the teacher uses large, colorful interactive charts to go over days of the week, months of the year, colors and shapes, and they learn to be quiet when she reads a book. They learn words to songs and how to take turns. There is emphasis on developing large motor skills, so lots of running, jumping, climbing tho the kids only know it as “play time”. Sure, letters and numbers are introduced and each student is taught to write their name, but not all are capable of it at that age. But, as one of my favorite sayings goes, “There are three ways you learn: repetition, repetition, repetition”. All of these things are helping children become comfortable within a school environment so they are better prepared for more structured school learning by the time they are older and entering kindergarten. “Pre” school. Self explanatory!

 

  Socialization and following directions, listening in a group are great! This is all fine as far as it goes, but what seems to have disappeared from preschool are more open ended discovery activities like a water table, sand table, dress up corner, and various kinds of blocks— a recognition that play is the real work of children. Adults have can increase verbal abilities (yes,shapes! colors!) by their commentary and can help children extend imaginative situations. Lots of the above activities provide pre-math experiences too: full, half full, more than, equal to, etc. and the kind of hand/eye coordination necessary for writing and so many other things. Art projects are important, but open ended ones, not “today we will all make Easter bunnies.” Adults can add written commentary, the child’s own words, which we hope would  be echoed at home by an important adult. 
  These are not newfangled ideas—they are very old ones that have proven their value.  I understand why they are not reflected in American preschool classes, but it’s a shame, especially now when ever- present screens mean that too many children don’t even know how to play. 

Edited March 23 by Bastet