Seewalds 48: Homophobia Now Mixed With Hypocrisy

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

So they’re all in denial and distancing mode now.

The thing is, none of the married daughters have gone to the family conferences in a long time. So it’s probably pretty easy for them to distance. You can still think all the things the cult taught you and never go to the events. Their minds can still be sucked into IBLP but never physically attend anything. So it’s pretty easy to deny.

I will use the example of a man named Sawyer who left Heaven’s Gate before the mass suicide. He’s done interviews over the years. He left 25+ years ago. But he is still totally in Heaven’s Gate. You can tell he regrets not being there when they all died. You can tell he wanted to be a part of that. Even today. Living a life outside of the cult for decades. He may never leave the cult mentally. 

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The thing is, none of the married daughters have gone to the family conferences in a long time. So it’s probably pretty easy for them to distance. You can still think all the things the cult taught you and never go to the events. Their minds can still be sucked into IBLP but never physically attend anything. So it’s pretty easy to deny.

I will use the example of a man named Sawyer who left Heaven’s Gate before the mass suicide. He’s done interviews over the years. He left 25+ years ago. But he is still totally in Heaven’s Gate. You can tell he regrets not being there when they all died. You can tell he wanted to be a part of that. Even today. Living a life outside of the cult for decades. He may never leave the cult mentally. 

If asked they’ll all claim to live by and obey the literal words of the Bible, but yet for each person that statement will mean something different. It’s probably easier for the girls as theoretically their husbands decide on the family’s belief system. 

[patsymae]

3 hours ago, ifosterkittens said:

I know the Rodrigues family has a printing ministry, so it isn't the same as a missionary, but I wish they had to be as transparent with their financial breakdown since they use the ministry to pay their bills. Jill does make some money with Plexus, but based on her ranking it isn't what they use to fund their lifestyle. 

I wonder if it something Derick would like to do in theory, but not in practicality. Why bother going to law school if the plan was to go back to being a missionary? Perhaps it is something he views as an option once the children are grown and he and Jill are empty nesters. 

I suspect Derrick thinks of his work as a "ministry," -- meaning how he will make an impact on the world--both in a nasty (right wing activist lawyer) and maybe good (prosecute the Joshlies of this world) way. I honestly don't think he does now, if he ever did, give a rat's patoot about bringing anyone except maybe his children to the realization that Jeebus is their savior. He's going to prosecute bad guys, lobby for disgusting laws and work his way up whatever he sees as the ladder. I wouldn't be surprised to see him run for DA, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him take a job as counsel for the FRC or similar. But I would really be surprised to see him go back to being a "missionary" outside the legal field.

[Giraffe]

7 hours ago, SassyPants said:

But that cost them money. How did they think they would care for their family?

Missionaries spend a lot of time pleading for money. My guess is they figured that would be them.
 

But it also sounds like being missionaries outside the states was a desperate attempt to put physical distance between JB and themselves while they figured out how to live their lives while also continuing as part of the Duggar “ministry.” It’s like why Jill drove him to and from work and school - they couldn’t figure out another way of getting real time together. 

[Idlewild]

@patsymae yes, I think Derick’s repeated desire to be a missionary is rather like Jessa’s ‘heart to adopt’- they thought about it, think it sounds good, but it won’t happen. Like you say, his ‘ministry’ will be his behaviour in his legal work or political office.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

I think it’s one of those things people talk about wanting but never get around to doing. I want to learn French and take a vacation to Paris but I never actually take the steps to do those things because life gets in the way. 

[CarrotCake]

I never really understand what missionaries do. In my mind they bring either goods or services to a place in need and use the dependence of the people their to indoctrinate them to their religion. But what are the goods and services the Dillards brought to El Salvador? I dont think Jill did any midwife practices there and I doubt they needed Derricks accounting skills.

Were they performaning non-professional dental care like that Bates boy? Or did Derrick attempt to build something? 

If you want to be a missionary, it makes sense to me to educate yourself in a field that is needed in poorer areas so you can be the white savior. The only Duggars I can think of that has those skills is Jill if she actually learned some midwife skills and JD who can fly in goods. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by CarrotCake

[eljayem]

7 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

I never really understand what missionaries do.

I've recently heard the term "church planting" and I think it's a better phrase than missionary in this day and age. Parts of the world are in desperate need of assistance with healthcare and infrastructure etc and people that go to help may be led by their faith to do so but have a professional skill that is their main reason to be there. Church planting is going somewhere to establish a church of a particular faith - the socio-economic needs of the area are not the primary reason they are there. The context where I heard of "church planting" was a team from a Christian denomination heading to northern Japan specifically to establish a church and following there.

[Meggo]

14 hours ago, patsymae said:

Derrick was a major dick (Whatever he was doing in Nepal, the SA grifting, the infamous cat incident) and he's now just a political dick, so he definitely has grown up a lot. He has achieved things that actually take hard work and discipline, which I doubt any Duggars even recognize, he supports his family, and most important, he seems to have been and continue to be a really good husband to Jill -- at first I thought it might just be about money for him but I don't think so.

In a way this situation reminds me of the Willis family--from what I understand, it was Jessica's now-husband who figured out what was going on and supported her to speak out and start to get healthy.

Derrick is not somebody I would want to know, but I don't think you can fault him as a supportive husband.

Agreed. I don't want to know him - but I do admire that he seems to be a good and supportive husband to her, seems to have helped open her eyes to a crappy situation, supported her looking to get real therapy. And that he has a backbone. It's not easy to go against family - especially one as manipulative as JB. So... for that. Good on him. 

[Alisamer]

I am kind of friends with a couple who are missionaries. They began working with an existing organization that creates and supports essentially group foster homes for abandoned children in Peru. The foster homes have local families as the "house parents", local tutors, local cooks. They care for the children, assist them in getting an education, and assist them in transitioning out once they graduate high school. I know one boy who grew up in one of the homes who was able to move from the jungle area to Lima and attended university there, and now I think may work in the tourism industry there, using the English he learned and practiced with the church groups the organization would have come in to assist with essentially grunt work - basic maintenance and such. Bringing in church groups brought in money for the organization, and also got them farther reach in getting support from churches in the US.

Now this couple are more focused on a mentoring program for the older children and young adults. They host training for the house parents of the homes with a focus on assisting children healing from trauma, but also work in creating networks of mentors for the children aging out of the homes, including help in applying for and attending university, finding work, etc. They have a scholarship program as well. Basically helping kids who were abandoned by their families to establish the support networks that many people take for granted. They also are doing trauma care training work with the staff of a very old children's home there. 

They do have a religious focus, as that's how they got started, but they don't "plant churches" or anything like that - they work with existing local churches as those are groups who largely are able and interested in the sort of mentoring and community the young adults they are helping need. They do have a lot of "helping adolescents find God's purpose for their lives" language in their fundraising, but day to day and in person the focus is on meeting the needs of the people they serve. They live in Peru, their kid was born there and goes to a public school there, they speak fluent Spanish, and the husband has become a naturalized citizen there. 

I know they aren't totally non-problematic, I mean ideally these sorts of services would be available without any religious baggage attached. But I do feel like they are more of what missionaries should be... focused on filling existing needs, helping people to help themselves, living in the community, and respecting and honoring the culture there. Working with existing local churches and groups assisting with a real need, rather than coming in like "Oh, you're the wrong sort of Christian. Here, let's build you a CORRECT sort of church to go to!"

I get the impression that Derrick and Jill's sort of missionary was more of the "live in a white enclave and preach at people occasionally" variety. 

[GreenBeans]

16 hours ago, SassyPants said:

If asked they’ll all claim to live by and obey the literal words of the Bible

That in itself is fundamentalist. It may not be IBLP, but it’s still fundamentalist.

8 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

and JD who can fly in goods. 

Wait… does that mean JD is a PILOT? I had no idea!

[Mama Mia]

13 hours ago, Giraffe said:

Missionaries spend a lot of time pleading for money. My guess is they figured that would be them.
 

But it also sounds like being missionaries outside the states was a desperate attempt to put physical distance between JB and themselves while they figured out how to live their lives while also continuing as part of the Duggar “ministry.” It’s like why Jill drove him to and from work and school - they couldn’t figure out another way of getting real time together. 

If I remember the timelines right, they announced they were going to go be missionaries right before the first Josh scandal broke, so they likely had higher expectations of how much support would come in based on the family name and reputation. 

I could see them still going to be missionaries in their late 50’s/early 60’s for a few years. After the kids have grown and if they are able to retire early and self-fund. 

 

 

 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I suspect that Derick and Jill have enough self-awareness (now) to realize that they are not good at being missionaries. The book didn’t say much about the end of their time with SOS Ministries, but they may have been fired. (I don’t have it with me at the moment.) They don’t have language skills, they’re both socially awkward, and Jill seems to be very anxious. Plus they wanted more kids and Jill has had dangerous deliveries. Derick seems to have enjoyed being not-a-missionary in Nepal (where it’s illegal) as a single guy, but I don’t think he wants to be in the field with his wife and kids.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I am against missions in general but I especially take issue with the giant missionary families. If I was donating, I can pretty much say I would donate to a single person or a married couple without kids over a family with 12 kids. Because you are just supporting those kids in another country and not an actual mission. I can’t help but think of John Schrader. What’s his mission anyway? He just gets donations so he can feed and house his ridiculously large family without doing any work himself.

[gobucks]

16 hours ago, eljayem said:

The context where I heard of "church planting" was a team from a Christian denomination heading to northern Japan specifically to establish a church and following there.

Judah from Our Tribe of Many?

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I think people still want to believe J & D got fired.  Unless we have any actual proof, the kind of mission that sends white evangelicals to preach who don't already speak the local language is probably not firing them due to personality.  They also seem to say that they were funding themselves through the fund raising and were basically out of money when they came home.

It sounds really scary, talking about their friend's boyfriend disappearing and their former guard being murdered.  I would not blame anyone for not wanting to go right back esp once she got pregnant again and had the zika risk.

[eljayem]

9 hours ago, gobucks said:

Judah from Our Tribe of Many?

yep!

[Alisamer]

11 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

I think people still want to believe J & D got fired.  Unless we have any actual proof, the kind of mission that sends white evangelicals to preach who don't already speak the local language is probably not firing them due to personality.  They also seem to say that they were funding themselves through the fund raising and were basically out of money when they came home.

 

Yeah I think maybe "fired" is not the right word? Because that kind of implies it's a job, and the whole point of it is that it's not. It's a "mission" and a "sacrifice" and something "God put on their heart" to do. They could have been "encouraged to return home" however. Likely with many thanks for their time with the organization and receiving frequent fundraising emails from that organization to this day.

I think most likely they just found it wasn't for them. It wasn't the sort of romantic adventure with an element of "triumphing through hardship to share God's word" like they'd read about in missionary bios and heard "testimonies" of from other missionaries who were out fundraising. Day to day it was being in an unfamiliar environment away from familiarity dealing with a completely different lifestyle than they were used to with very little support system where they didn't speak the language much, all while still being pretty new to each other despite being married and having a baby already.

As a comparison, my friends who are missionaries? She majored in Spanish in college, spent summers interning in Peru during that time, and was effectively fluent in the language before moving there full time. He had a very similar path, just a year or so ahead of her. Both had been doing shorter stints of a few weeks or months in Peru each time for about a decade before making it their full time "calling." They later returned to the states for a brief time so he could get a masters degree in Marriage and Family Therapy (at a Christian, but accredited, college) as they were shifting their focus to working with young adults. Other than that time, they live in Peru full time, it is their home. 

I feel like ALL the Duggars, as well as Derrick, had this romantic notion of mission work as going and sharing "the good news" with people who had never heard of Jesus, setting up a church where people would be just like they are in their churches at home, just with some "exotic" and "adventurous" additions to make life more exciting. They'd go, stay a while, and come back with a lovely story of all the people they'd saved and lives they'd changed for the better and how they had new "friends" in another country who they had brought around to their version of Christianity.

In reality, mission work is work, for most people who do it seriously. Like my friends' jobs as full time missionaries for an organization involves a LOT of accounting work, coordinating people, dealing with paperwork (both governmental and organizational), and also drudge work like cleaning and basic maintenance stuff that has to be done but that a missionary organization might not be able to pay someone to do. They had the fun stuff like playing Uno with the kids and helping them practice English for their school homework, but there was a lot of just plain WORK to be done. And, all the everyday necessary stuff like housework and cooking and all that doesn't disappear either, just because you're in another country. Just now you might have added levels of difficulty, like less reliable plumbing and electricity, appliances you aren't familiar with, your usual products and brands might be different or not available, and there might be really gigantic bugs. And to actually help people, you need to meet them where they are, as they are. Being "saved" is nice but it's hard to focus on intangibles like God if you are hungry and homeless. 

[SassyPants]

5 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Yeah I think maybe "fired" is not the right word? Because that kind of implies it's a job, and the whole point of it is that it's not. It's a "mission" and a "sacrifice" and something "God put on their heart" to do. They could have been "encouraged to return home" however. Likely with many thanks for their time with the organization and receiving frequent fundraising emails from that organization to this day.

I think most likely they just found it wasn't for them. It wasn't the sort of romantic adventure with an element of "triumphing through hardship to share God's word" like they'd read about in missionary bios and heard "testimonies" of from other missionaries who were out fundraising. Day to day it was being in an unfamiliar environment away from familiarity dealing with a completely different lifestyle than they were used to with very little support system where they didn't speak the language much, all while still being pretty new to each other despite being married and having a baby already.

As a comparison, my friends who are missionaries? She majored in Spanish in college, spent summers interning in Peru during that time, and was effectively fluent in the language before moving there full time. He had a very similar path, just a year or so ahead of her. Both had been doing shorter stints of a few weeks or months in Peru each time for about a decade before making it their full time "calling." They later returned to the states for a brief time so he could get a masters degree in Marriage and Family Therapy (at a Christian, but accredited, college) as they were shifting their focus to working with young adults. Other than that time, they live in Peru full time, it is their home. 

I feel like ALL the Duggars, as well as Derrick, had this romantic notion of mission work as going and sharing "the good news" with people who had never heard of Jesus, setting up a church where people would be just like they are in their churches at home, just with some "exotic" and "adventurous" additions to make life more exciting. They'd go, stay a while, and come back with a lovely story of all the people they'd saved and lives they'd changed for the better and how they had new "friends" in another country who they had brought around to their version of Christianity.

In reality, mission work is work, for most people who do it seriously. Like my friends' jobs as full time missionaries for an organization involves a LOT of accounting work, coordinating people, dealing with paperwork (both governmental and organizational), and also drudge work like cleaning and basic maintenance stuff that has to be done but that a missionary organization might not be able to pay someone to do. They had the fun stuff like playing Uno with the kids and helping them practice English for their school homework, but there was a lot of just plain WORK to be done. And, all the everyday necessary stuff like housework and cooking and all that doesn't disappear either, just because you're in another country. Just now you might have added levels of difficulty, like less reliable plumbing and electricity, appliances you aren't familiar with, your usual products and brands might be different or not available, and there might be really gigantic bugs. And to actually help people, you need to meet them where they are, as they are. Being "saved" is nice but it's hard to focus on intangibles like God if you are hungry and homeless. 

Also, the Dillards were both really young when they became missionaries in El Salvador. He had worked at WM for what, a year? And Jill had never had a job outside of the home. When you work for others, your time is no longer your own. You have to show up on time and carry out all the tasks assigned to you on a schedule. I am sure that was a very foreign concept to Jill, plus she had an infant to also care for. 

I’m not sure why neither Dillard ever attained a decent proficiency in Spanish.

I bet if they could have had a real, independent relationship before marrying, they would have never conceived a honeymoon baby, and perhaps might have gone a mission before ever having a child.

[Cam]

There’s nothing wrong with changing your mind. They did the missionary work for a couple years and then decided to move on to something else. They both went through a lot of changes in a few short years, individually and as a couple.

[SassyPants]

4 hours ago, Cam said:

There’s nothing wrong with changing your mind. They did the missionary work for a couple years and then decided to move on to something else. They both went through a lot of changes in a few short years, individually and as a couple.

Absolutely! BUT…we have to also acknowledge that for a young family having the option to explore different life paths without really worrying about how you would fund those different experiences is extremely entitled/privileged. Now should JB have payed Jill and eventually the couple for working the show? Absolutely. It’s all so dysfunctional and to think JB was given a platform to sell this BS as a wholesome lifestyle is absolutely absurd. 

[Alisamer]

3 hours ago, Cam said:

There’s nothing wrong with changing your mind. They did the missionary work for a couple years and then decided to move on to something else. They both went through a lot of changes in a few short years, individually and as a couple.

I agree. They'd been led to believe that being a missionary was an important high "calling" and they'd seen the highlights of people's missionary work and read the carefully edited bios of missionaries of the past. But the reality wasn't like that, and they changed their minds about it. Which is totally OK. 

Frankly the way Jill was raised I feel like she just didn't get much opportunity to even think about what she might want to do with her life. She had a tiny short list of potentially "acceptable" things a fundie woman could do, and "missionary" was one of them that Derrick was interested in as well, so there they went. 

I could absolutely see them going with a church group on a short-term mission trip every year once the kids are all a bit older. 

[Cam]

41 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Absolutely! BUT…we have to also acknowledge that for a young family having the option to explore different life paths without really worrying about how you would fund those different experiences is extremely entitled/privileged. Now should JB have payed Jill and eventually the couple for working the show? Absolutely. It’s all so dysfunctional and to think JB was given a platform to sell this BS as a wholesome lifestyle is absolutely absurd. 

I don’t know. I’m in the middle of reading the book, and it sounds like the Dillards actually were worried about money when they chose to move on from the missionary work. 

I know plenty of young couples and older ones too who move on from a chose field of work to explore different life paths. It seems to be more common these days, and I don’t see them as extremely entitled/privileged. There’s a certain swath of people who make the choice to move in a different direction and if anything, I admire them.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

5 hours ago, Cam said:

There’s nothing wrong with changing your mind. They did the missionary work for a couple years and then decided to move on to something else. They both went through a lot of changes in a few short years, individually and as a couple.

It could simply be that they, to borrow Jill’s phrase, counted the cost of continuing in the mission field and decided to go elsewhere. If seeing the legal side of Duggar trouble inspired Derrick to become a lawyer that could just be where their path led them.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

So it turns out this is Jessa’s thread! She had already announced her very obvious pregnancy, correct? She just posted on Facebook that it’s a rainbow baby - had she previously mentioned a miscarriage since her last baby?