Harry & Meghan 13: Doing the Dance of Deniability

[prayawaythefundie]

2 hours ago, viii said:

Doesn’t show a lot of planning on their end if that’s what they go with. They will live under a King William reign much longer than Charles. He’s making an enemy of the wrong man. 

That‘s what tells me Harry is blinded by pain and anger. For someone who should very well know how this institution works, he is acting so inapt.

Now William is said to be hot-headed himself. Someone (probably more than one person) must have been steadying his hand over and over again for the last three years.

Edited January 3, 2023 by prayawaythefundie

[apandaaries]

44 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

You don't get it? He's educating himself. YOu have to really stretch to find fault with someone educating themself about anti-semitism. I applaud it.

Not a lot of folks can meet with the head rabbi in a city.

Then again, not many need to do so to realize Nazi uniforms aren’t kosher, acceptable, nor amusing. 

[prayawaythefundie]

Oops, wrong thread.

Edited January 3, 2023 by prayawaythefundie

[noseybutt]

4 hours ago, viii said:

Doesn’t show a lot of planning on their end if that’s what they go with. They will live under a King William reign much longer than Charles. He’s making an enemy of the wrong man. 

There are many things that don’t make sense to me about H & M and this is one of them. Because of the rules of royalty, there is and always will be a significant and obvious power differential between Harry and his father and brother. That will never change no matter his popularity and publicity.

[klein_roeschen]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

You don't get it? He's educating himself. YOu have to really stretch to find fault with someone educating themself about anti-semitism. I applaud it.

Sorry, but what a pile of steaming bullshit. Harry is british and attended Eton school. The Nazis weren't some tiny local political movement and the Holocaust wasn't some local massaker forgotten in history by bigger events. With that background you wear a Nazi uniform, who in fact was the uniform of the African corps served under Rommel to be precise, to shock others and get attention. And you don't need to talk to a prominent Rabbi to educate yourself about anti- semitism. There are numerous books and docus out there about the history of anti- semitism, the Holocaust and even modern forms of anti- semitism. More than enough to educate oneself before deciding to wear a fucking Nazi uniform to a costume party.

[tabitha2]

A decent advisor or even savvy friend would have said to make it relatable  to the point and most of all humble. 
 

“I shamed myself and my family and our veterans by my stupid callous actions that night  and started working to be a better man and educating myself. I ask forgiveness from all those I hurt.”

No tears or name dropping. Just honest. 

 

 

[viii]

I think it’s important to remember that William also attended this party. This is a good example of how the firm tidied up things for William but left Harry out in the cold. Yes, Harry made the colossal stupid decision to dress up as a nazi but he didn’t act alone. Once again, William as the heir was cared for so no one knew his mistakes and growing up, it’s easy to see how deep that would plant a seed of bitterness in Harry. 

[tabitha2]

William was not his brothers keeper nor nanny He went to a party to have fun and did nothing wrong unless you wanna say he encouraged Harry and we have no evidence of that. 
 

Harry was the one doing drugs, Harry was the one using racial slurs, Harry was the one being drunk and naked in public.Not William. Oh but Harry should have been protected and tidied up for and he feelings are  hurt now! It’s not fair!!! They didn’t treat him the same!  
 
Yeah ok.  

[viii]

You’re a fool if you don’t think William was partying and doing drugs right beside him. It is well known that William’s partying behaviour was always cleaned up the palace, because he is the heir. There is a looooooong history and it’s easy to see why Harry is bitter. 

[tabitha2]

We have absolutely no proof William did drugs and it’s wrong to accuse him OTOH We know exactly  what Harry was doing and now he and apparently you believe  he should have been “covered up” for and “protected” as well. 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by tabitha2

[prayawaythefundie]

If I remember correctly, at least one story about William‘s partying in his St. Andrew‘s days did get out and it was something about how he was so drunk, he passed out in his dormitory floor or right before the house or something and his security taking care and telling students no photos. If someone here has a better memory, please correct me as mine is very vague and I may be getting some of the details wrong.

So yes, William did party hard and I‘m convinced the palace tried to cover up as much of it as they could. I think they tried with Harry as well but maybe not as hard and definitely not as successfully. Others might also be more cooperative when asked to keep silent if it‘s about the heir.

In the case of the Nazi uniform incident though, I suspect the palace didn‘t even have much work protecting William.  Harry drew so much attention with that, nobody cared much about William being there as well.

Edited January 3, 2023 by prayawaythefundie

[tabitha2]

And so what? He is was a young man who got drunk at university and it’s nothing stop the presses about. It’s not offensive or illegal  abd no one was hurt and was not indicative of a pattern of behavior like Harry was heading for. 
 

They could not protect Harry from himself, he is still his own worst enemy and for some of the things he did covering up and protecting him would have been not only a huge wrong but a crime 

[louisa05]

On 12/26/2022 at 12:02 AM, Mama Mia said:

I’m not a Diana acolyte ffs. I just find it —- ironic—- that Charles, who quite infamously was drug through the press for being a notorious cheater, after being a 30 something grown man pressured into marrying a certified pure virgin by his mother, is quite willing to let his daughter in law be violently threatened and hounded by that same press.  It’s very disturbing.  

His mother never pressured him to marry anyone. Don’t get history lessons from Netflix and the sellers of Diana Mythology.

Louis Mountbatten pressured him to marry a virgin because he wanted him to marry his granddaughter Amanda Knatchbull. Having influenced George VI and Queen Elizabeth to allow the romance then marriage of their daughter to his penniless stateless nephew, he hoped for a repeat with the next heir. If either parent can be blamed for “pressuring” him to marry Diana, it would have to be Philip but biographers believe that his advice was misinterpreted by his son  as most of their interactions when Charles was a young man. That misinterpreted advice had absolutely nothing to do with virginity. And the virginity test story was false. 

[Mama Mia]

22 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

His mother never pressured him to marry anyone. Don’t get history lessons from Netflix and the sellers of Diana Mythology.

Louis Mountbatten pressured him to marry a virgin because he wanted him to marry his granddaughter Amanda Knatchbull. Having influenced George VI and Queen Elizabeth to allow the romance then marriage of their daughter to his penniless stateless nephew, he hoped for a repeat with the next heir. If either parent can be blamed for “pressuring” him to marry Diana, it would have to be Philip but biographers believe that his advice was misinterpreted by his son  as most of their interactions when Charles was a young man. That misinterpreted advice had absolutely nothing to do with virginity. And the virginity test story was false. 

I am a couple years younger  than Diana, and got married within a couple weeks of her.  As a contemporary, planning a wedding at the same time, believe me I noticed all the news regarding her and Charles in real time.  Her own uncle (ew!) proclaimed to the media that she was a virgin. In a public statement. There had been speculation because it was the 1980’s not the 1680’s, and it seemed weird that there were actual virgins in storage for 30 something year old men. This isn’t new gossip brought up by Netflix ffs. It’s recent enough that people remember it in real time. Along with the interviews. Along with the tampon call. And remember Charles getting lots of media speculation about when he would finally settle down with someone “appropriate”. These peoples entire reason for existing as a monarchy is breeding, and order and hierarchy and politics of breeding,  I can’t fathom why all of a sudden people are acting like they engage in relationships in a remotely normal way. 
I went and did a search for an article from the time regarding her virginity.  Not from a gossip rag. 
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/07/11/Lady-Diana-Spencer-Princess-of-Wales/8839363672000/

[prayawaythefundie]

I don‘t think anyone is denying that Charles was or felt pressured into marrying Diana or someone else „appropriate“ (with virginity being one criterion). The dispute is over where exactly the pressure came from, I believe.

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

William was not his brothers keeper nor nanny He went to a party to have fun and did nothing wrong unless you wanna say he encouraged Harry and we have no evidence of that. 
 

Harry was the one doing drugs, Harry was the one using racial slurs, Harry was the one being drunk and naked in public.Not William. Oh but Harry should have been protected and tidied up for and he feelings are  hurt now! It’s not fair!!! They didn’t treat him the same!  
 
Yeah ok.  

I thought we were all in agreement that with royal protocol they were of course treated differently. Did I miss something?

[noseybutt]

26 minutes ago, prayawaythefundie said:

I don‘t think anyone is denying that Charles was or felt pressured into marrying Diana or someone else „appropriate“ (with virginity being one criterion). The dispute is over where exactly the pressure came from, I believe.

Would this be an answerable question? 

We know the BRF is an institution with rules and traditions and duties. The BRF is also a family with emotions and attachments and relationships. 

Historically QE2 opted for duty and the institution over other priorities. 

I don’t doubt that was often a difficult position to be in.

 

[louisa05]

46 minutes ago, prayawaythefundie said:

I don‘t think anyone is denying that Charles was or felt pressured into marrying Diana or someone else „appropriate“ (with virginity being one criterion). The dispute is over where exactly the pressure came from, I believe.

I find it particularly fascinating that people who seem to hate Charles also refuse to hold him accountable for his own decisions. He chose to ghost Camilla during a deployment early in their original relationship. He chose to date and propose to Diana. He was a grown man with his own agency. I like him in general and I think he takes a lot of blame he doesn’t deserve or deserve all on his own when it comes to his first marriage . But marrying her and not marrying Camilla before were both decisions he made all by himself. 

[just_ordinary]

The party was 20 years ago. And while everyone involved should have known better, it’s not as if those kind of „jokes“ were as shunned as they are today. Wiliam attending the same party is actually pretty offensive. Because of its motto. I am not sure how we know he was there too, though. But H blew it out of the park. Wearing a Nazi uniform was extremely dumb even then. So, even if the RF was intending to shield W, they really didn’t have to. We have no outright proof for W being just as bad. I don’t doubt it, but if the RF was always covering up there is no proof, so it’s still in the realm of gossip. Maybe he was just too smart to get photographed? He wasn’t in this ski resort after his wedding though. So, even if the institution covered up for W, because he is constitutionally significant, and it’s rational but unfair, I still don’t think him whining about it is the right direction. Because he actually says he wanted to be able to pull this shit as well. Not very woke. Instead he should rather say that his misdemeanours were not covered up, which urged him to grow and he wishes the Institution would stop covering up anyway because morals and ethics. That would sound like an reflective adult and still deliver an underhand hit at the RF. 
 

I find it really interesting that “stripping” of titles is a regulated process but the option of giving it up kind of isn’t. That should be such an easy thing to put into writing.

[prayawaythefundie]

1 hour ago, noseybutt said:

Historically QE2 opted for duty and the institution over other priorities. 

Most of the time, yes. But when it came to her own marriage, she chose a groom considered unfit by some. The palace had to make some arrangements (about last names, titles and emphasis of heritage) to make him look a better candidate than he was.

If Elizabeth got away with choosing love over appropriateness, it would have been particularly mean of her to pressure Charles. It‘s still a possibility though.

[noseybutt]

41 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

I find it particularly fascinating that people who seem to hate Charles also refuse to hold him accountable for his own decisions. He chose to ghost Camilla during a deployment early in their original relationship. He chose to date and propose to Diana. He was a grown man with his own agency. I like him in general and I think he takes a lot of blame he doesn’t deserve or deserve all on his own when it comes to his first marriage . But marrying her and not marrying Camilla before were both decisions he made all by himself. 

Because it goes back to the fact that these people are part of an institution and, as such, they do not make decisions like mere mortals. They seem not to have agency (or to believe they don’t have agency) in the same way as regular people. Personal decisions are weighed against the needs of the institution.
 

2 minutes ago, prayawaythefundie said:

Most of the time, yes. But when it came to her own marriage, she chose a groom considered unfit by some. The palace had to make some arrangements (about last names, titles and emphasis of heritage) to make him look a better candidate than he was.

If Elizabeth got away with choosing love over appropriateness, it would have been particularly mean of her to pressure Charles. It‘s still a possibility though.

She was young and not yet queen when she chose her husband, yes? It would make sense that her sense of duty would have morphed over the years.

Also I do agree that Charles is and was a grown ass man. I am not consistent on any of this. 😂

[Jackie3]

On Anderson Cooper, Harry says he never plans to return to "work" as a British royal. The British media and the royal family must be disappointed. But they made their bed.

Why would he want to return to a rule-bound, protocol-driven life? Or watch their wife being bullied in the papers every day?  Even worse,  why would he want his kids growing up, seeing their mom bullied? He's better off where he is, and his kids are too.

[prayawaythefundie]

Why would the royal family want him to return? Working together apparently didn‘t go well for the brothers and their wives.

[Jackie3]

4 hours ago, louisa05 said:

I find it particularly fascinating that people who seem to hate Charles also refuse to hold him accountable for his own decisions. He chose to ghost Camilla during a deployment early in their original relationship. He chose to date and propose to Diana. He was a grown man with his own agency. I like him in general and I think he takes a lot of blame he doesn’t deserve or deserve all on his own when it comes to his first marriage . But marrying her and not marrying Camilla before were both decisions he made all by himself. 

I'd thought he could not marry Camilla or any other divorced woman, due to the fact that as King he'd be head of Church of England. Then something changed and he could.

I was around in the 80s,  and I remember there was a lot of talk about how important it was for him to marry a virgin. So there wouldn't be any boyfriends coming out of the woodwork to make trouble.

Though that never made any sense to me. If anything, it was important for Charles to be a virgin so there wouldn't be the chance of any illegitimate children coming up and claiming ties to the royal family. While it wouldn't have mattered if Diana had had a child before marriage since that child would not be royal.

He could have given everything up for her, I suppose, but he didn't love her enough for that.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Jackie3

[viii]

Yeah, I don’t think anyone is disappointed. Harry clearly doesn’t enjoy work as a royal so sounds like him not returning is the best option for everyone involved. The media can still talk about him whether he’s working or not so I doubt they care either.