Maxwell 53: Escaping the Borg by Marriage. Who'd Have Thought Sarah?

[fundiewatch]

And Joseph’s first courtship to Elizabeth! That poor girl was going to move to a house she had only seen via pictures and FaceTime, AND Steve said in the comment section that hasn’t been scrubbed that the plan was for Elizabeth to join the family and travel with them on Uriah. Never having touched the man! Elissa may have had more power in the transitioning than we know. 
 

editing to add that it wasn’t even FaceTime. I’m pretty sure Steve was an asshole enough to say she saw pictures and the blog. Ugh. I hope Elizabeth/parents really really read the blog and realized what a small insular world they were picking for her. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by fundiewatch

[Caroline]

All of this exciting news about the Maxwell women makes me think of two other former SAHDs who have really evolved.

Does anyone remember the two Rebeccas?  One (Rebecca Kellum from Missouri) would often respond to the Maxwell blog and it was generally agreed upon that she was maybe interested in a Maxwell man but that Steve would never want someone as provincial as her to marry one of his dazzling specimens of godly manhood.  It was also agreed that she was way better off without a Maxwell prude.  I'm sure she's very happy for all of the female Maxwell escapees.

The other Rebecca (of Unusual Maiden fame) has really come a long way.  She seemed to let go of a lot of her former godly beliefs in favor of embracing real life and all kinds of people. She was very open about her own anxiety disorder and truly supportive of others.   She was not friends with the Maxwells as far as I now.  She lives far away from them in a notoriously blue New England state.  

[AnnaSofia]

10 minutes ago, Bethy said:

Also this is not a no-touch courtship, which I'm thrilled to see. It's nothing like Christopher's awkward no-touch engagement.

TRUTH! I never thought I'd see a photo like this one one from an unmarried Maxwell in a million years!

 

23 hours ago, Sops2 said:

 

[feministxtian]

From the videos and pictures I've seen, they are right comfortable with each other. I agree with the person who said that the engagement was a done deal but she just didn't know when he'd formally propose. I love how he did it. It was fun, not flashy or overdone (see Duggar/Bates engagements), around friends and their campers. Go Sarah Go!!!

[SPHASH]

I agree don't send gifts to Sarah.  It is creepy and why spend your hard earned money on a fundie.  Donate to Planned Parenthood in Steve's name instead.

[gracegrace]

51 minutes ago, Bethy said:

Go back a few pages in this thread. I think things started rolling on page 3. He's 43, works in agriculture, is from a large family where all their names start with K, and was ordained as a deacon in his (Southern Baptist) church last month. Works with youth/kids at church. No evidence of a previous marriage - I'd be surprised if he had been, given his church leadership, but some opinions vary on that possibility. There's a link to the proposal as it's part of the church's camp report video. (Wow, the FJ sleuths are FAST!)

And to think, two weeks ago we were all abuzz trying to figure out if that was Anna in a pic wearing shorts and jewelry with highlighted hair, like that was going to be the most exciting Maxwell event of the summer...

He works for the federal government. He’s a technician at a U.S. Department of Agriculture research facility in Oklahoma. After all the Maxwell focus on raising sons who would work in a family business!

[treemom]

3 hours ago, Bethy said:

I know we all feel like we "know" the Maxwells, because some of us have read every single word they posted for a decade or more, and the vibe here is 100% rooting for Sarah which is awesome, but aside from whoever it was crashed their conference in like 2011 (when Mary made the heart hands and said "I love my daddy" and then the gatecrashers went out and humped Uriah and I think they also might have signed the guestbook "Jinger Freed"...forgive me, I don't remember who that was) they don't know any of us.

I wonder if the girls ever think back on that interaction, though. Obviously they acted like they felt very threatened by it at the time, as it went against everything they'd been trained to think and believe and say. If my memory/timing are correct, it was late winter/early spring 2011 so Anna had just published the "Am I Going To College?" post. Now, a decade later, Anna and Mary ARE in college, living their best lives, and Sarah has forged her own path as well.

I have tried so hard to outrun that interaction.  I wouldn’t say they know me.  Nor would I have the same interaction now many years older and wiser.  And we didn’t sign our name.  I introduced myself using my actual name.  I didn’t feel a need to hide who I was.  The guestbook was a different interaction by someone else. 
 

I think the rules FJ have put in place since then are the right things.  And it would be creepy and uncomfortable for anyone to have any contact with them now.  Especially since they haven’t been part of a dog and pony show for a long time.

Edited July 7, 2022 by treemom

[Foursquare]

Unless Sarah has asked him not to, Steve should acknowledge her engagement, at least in a Seriously column if not on the blog. And he needs to update her bio since that "right guy" has arrived. 

[divadivine]

Sarah Maxwell is getting married.  Maybe there’s still hope for me?

[Bethy]

17 minutes ago, Foursquare said:

Unless Sarah has asked him not to, Steve should acknowledge her engagement, at least in a Seriously column if not on the blog. And he needs to update her bio since that "right guy" has arrived. 

I'm almost afraid he WILL mention the engagement in Seriously. And make it all about rebellious daughters who go out from under their father's umbrella of protection and don't do things God's way, and how God won't bless them and their marriage. I mean, consider what we know about Steve's priorities for his children/their spouses:

• Boys need to buy their house in cash
• College is unnecessary and a financial/spiritual burden
• Be your own employer/don't work for (and therefore answer to) anyone else
• No-touch courtship is the way to go
• Nursing home church (with himself as "pastor") is superior to a traditional congregation
• Modest dress (long skirts, no contrasting buttons, etc.) for the ladies, 24/7

The only "rule" that we don't KNOW Kory has broken is #1, because he's definitely been to college, works for someone else (the government, no less!) the proof is all over that church camp video that they haven't been no-touch, Kory is heavily involved in a somewhat contemporary church - in its separate youth ministry, no less! - and is in leadership there, and Sarah has been seen in jeans both in "active" settings (like camp) and "sedate" settings (like that concert in Branson in the winter.)

I don't know that he sees the disconnect, where Christopher followed every single one of those rules and still ended up with a wife who was fighting for her life after a cancer diagnosis in her early 30s, but I really hope he doesn't bash/guilt Sarah over this, or predict gloom and doom on her future as a result of not following all of rules 1-6 above.

I say this as a child of fundie-lite parents who wield guilt/shame/fear like a sword. I KNOW how much that would hurt and make me doubt myself. And I've had years of therapy to help me sort it all out. I don't think Sarah has had time for that level of growth/healing yet.

[Black Aliss]

1 hour ago, AnnaSofia said:

TRUTH! I never thought I'd see a photo like this one one from an unmarried Maxwell in a million years!

Remember how we always remarked that Sarah's smile never reached her eyes? That is the most joyful expression we have ever seen her with.

Riding the idle speculation bus:

Spoiler

This happened quickly enough that I can't help but wonder if Kory and Sarah didn't meet years ago. Perhaps the attraction was mutual, Kory asked Steve for permission to court Sarah and was refused. Fast forward to last year with Sarah moving out. She may have gotten in touch with Kory, and the flame was rekindled, but no need to ask Steve this time.

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I bet all three daughters will marry a man who went to college. We already know Sarah and Mary probably will since Sam is in his senior year. Anna will either marry a guy attending her same college or associate with guys who went to college because their families let their daughters go. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[Alisamer]

Skinny jeans and a T-shirt with an image right across the chest. Clearly NOT a no-touch courtship. He's been to college. He works for the government. A church camp with youth groups. 

Steve must be weeping over his 2 animal crackers under a dusty ceiling fan. Good. 

[harkasquirrel]

So much change in such a short amount of time - I wonder if any of the Maxwell brothers are starting to loosen up and letting their children have more fun than they did growing up. We’ve already seen some of the granddaughters and wives in pants, I am sure some of the kids are saying “I want to go to Aunt Sarah and Uncle Kory’s camp.” If we see a kid on a sports team, that would be the cherry on top of Steve’s crumbling teachings.

[danvillebelle]

Just got through reading through all the posts.  As someone who has known about/followed (I actually owned some of their books in the early 2000's) the Maxwells since around 1999, I thought this day would never come.  I couldn't be happier for her!  You go, Sarah!  Live your best life and cut your joyless, soul-sucking parents right on out of your life even more if you want to!  

[JermajestyDuggar]

I always thought the “No college” thing made no sense in Maxhell. Steve had a good job because he went to college. Teri and Steve MET at college. There would be no Maxwell family without college! Steve and Teri may not have been amazing homeschoolers. But they were better than a lot of these huge fundie homeschool families. You can see the huge difference by looking at Sarah’s writing and then looking at Nurie’s writing 😬Steve seemed like the type that could possibly allow a local Bible college for his boys to commute to back in the day. But he didn’t even allow that! Now that’s strict and controlling. It’s crazy how different it is now. 

[sableduck]

If we get any kind of engagement acknowledgement from Steve, I expect it to be passive aggressive, like John and Chelsy’s.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

2 hours ago, SPHASH said:

I agree don't send gifts to Sarah.  It is creepy and why spend your hard earned money on a fundie.  Donate to Planned Parenthood in Steve's name instead.

Thank You!

I also was uncomfortable with the idea that people should buy Sarah gifts.

I recommend donating to PFLAG, the Trevor Project, GLAAD, or any organization that supports gay rights. Most churches even mainstream ones still are anti-gay rights. Sarah and Kory are most likely homophobic.

[Sister Mozz]

I really can't get over Sarah's involvement at church camp. She always seemed separate from her nieces and nephews, always behind the camera while Anna and Mary helped. She seemed quiet, reserved, and uncomfortable in general. Do you know how comfortable you have to be to play games on stage in front of teenagers? Especially physically active games? I've been involved with the youth at my church for over a decade. I'm the "bake the cookies, talk about your day, help you with your homework, take pictures, assistant driver to activities" kind of youth worker. I wouldn't be up on the stage playing games, it's not my personality. And I never would have thought Sarah would either! This is amazing and wonderful. Way to go, Sarah!

[MamaJunebug]

5 hours ago, Bethy said:

I know we all feel like we "know" the Maxwells, because some of us have read every single word they posted for a decade or more, and the vibe here is 100% rooting for Sarah which is awesome, but aside from whoever it was crashed their conference in like 2011 (when Mary made the heart hands and said "I love my daddy" and then the gatecrashers went out and humped Uriah and I think they also might have signed the guestbook "Jinger Freed"...forgive me, I don't remember who that was) they don't know any of us.

I wonder if the girls ever think back on that interaction, though. Obviously they acted like they felt very threatened by it at the time, as it went against everything they'd been trained to think and believe and say. If my memory/timing are correct, it was late winter/early spring 2011 so Anna had just published the "Am I Going To College?" post. Now, a decade later, Anna and Mary ARE in college, living their best lives, and Sarah has forged her own path as well.

Hi. There were two separate Interactions mentioned here, and the details listed above have some details confused. I’m not chiding - it’s an easy mistake to make. 
 

I attended a conference in 2010, if memory serves.  Abigail was about 2 and Melanie was pregnant with Bethy (?) but hadn’t announced yet.  I spoke briefly to other conference-goers at the sales table and exchanged a smile and hello with Anna when she approached me from behind the sales table, as any good clerk would do. 
 

They sponsors had, as a gift to the family, a professionally calligraphed prayer (or Bible verse?), beautifully framed but without the glass. It was  available for attendees to sign the mat before the glass was to be added and the artwork presented to the family. I signed Jinger Freeh, very unobtrusively.

Other than that, I touched nothing but my chair in the audience. In my defense, also, there were no rules against FJ … leave-behinds at the time, or I never would have.  Junebug shells are deceptively fragile when hand-slapped. 

Of course I don’t know any of them personally.  But the memory of Sarah scurrying around,

— supervising A & M (who weren’t in any hurry to stop playing with Abby and go onstage),

— searching slightly frantically for Steve’s “lost” prop Bible (I do believe rascally John had hid it, he just had WAAY too big a grin on his face when he strode onstage, holding it aloft to cheers & applause, LOL),

— and looking mostly miserable to be there, even though she put up a very professional front as she moved around the venue, during her self-introduction at the beginning of the concert, and later as she sat upstage with Teri during the concert, not playing the prop guitars they held,

— make me feel like I saw her less than complete complacency within the narrow and unsuitable roles her parents had decided for her. She was, what? 28 at the time? And all the usual thoughts of, “Gosh, when I was 28 I had a career and a home of my own…” ran thru my head, followed by, “And this poor chick has yet to go on a date?! And won’t hold hands until her wedding ceremony?”
 

So no, I don’t know her, not one whit  But having observed, again …. I am as delighted for her as I was for any young person in my family, to know she’s found Love  May their marriage be  healthy, happy and no closer to the czar*  than they want it to be!

*Yep, a “Fiddler” reference   Life is a song cue! 

So that thoughtful won’t have to, here’s the lines as I recall them:

TOWNSPERSON: Rabbi, is there a proper blessing for the czar?

(All on stage fall silent)

RABBI: A blessing for the czar? Of course! (He sings) May God bless and keep the czar — (he speaks) far away from us!  

 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

8 hours ago, NoseyNellie said:

@Bluebirdbluebell re-The engagement
I did  not take her actions as uncomfortable with the engagement.  The photos of them together- piggy backing him, next to each other in the group of kids and the on stage game seem very natural and comfortable.  My thought was they had likely already had conversations of a future together.. and the proposal timing was just the surprise.  It looked kinda like she nodded and laughed and agreed to it and then did not know what to do- kiss/hug/fist bump being that they were on stage in front of who knows how many teens.  

BUT

How freaking wonderful that she had THIS type of engagement- in her jeans and blouse, phone in her pocket, hair flying around doing some dance game, laughing, touching other adults and appearing for all intents genuinely engaged in her environment.  This is SO MUCH MORE than any of us ever imagined.  This appears to be a guy her age, engaged in his church and family, is educated and appears to be gainfully employed.  I think we all feared she would eventually marry some old widower and be stuck brewing his daily coffee and rearranging his linen closet and tending to his children/grandchildren.  

For all we know his parents are breathing a sigh of relief that their son has finally found a lovely young woman who loves the lord and her family, has her own life and interests and has caught his eye and they might get a few grandkids out of them.  

I love that they are getting married SOON!  Get this show on the road!  Time to mark your bingo cards for Baby Max Bollinger #2023 ( not that I want them to have a honeymoon baby but with being older I assume baby sooner than later!)

I agree that lots of anonymously sent gifts would look creepy, but I would love to see a post on the website about it and how it would crash under the weight of the well wishes!  People HAVE talked about you over the years, but Sarah it was with worry FOR you, for your emotional well being, 

The proposal timing was the point! I hope Sarah had a say in whether or not it was public proposal. She should have the right to say whether they did that in public on stage or not. I was worried she looked uncomfortable at the proposal, not before or after. 

It is a major red flag IF he didn't at least try to get her opinion on proposing in public like that. She already had one man in her life (Steve) who forced her to be a public person regardless of how she felt.  Public proposals are always at least a little emotionally manipulative. I hope she had a say, but she was raised to cater to the man's decisions. I worry for fundie girls in that regard. 

I hope no one asks Sarah about having a baby at the wedding, reception, etc. They might not be able to have kids.

[Bethy]

3 hours ago, treemom said:

I have tried so hard to outrun that interaction.  I wouldn’t say they know me.  Nor would I have the same interaction now many years older and wiser.  And we didn’t sign our name.  I introduced myself using my actual name.  I didn’t feel a need to hide who I was.  The guestbook was a different interaction by someone else. 
 

I think the rules FJ have put in place since then are the right things.  And it would be creepy and uncomfortable for anyone to have any contact with them now.  Especially since they haven’t been part of a dog and pony show for a long time.

 

23 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

Hi. There were two separate Interactions mentioned here, and the details listed above have some details confused. I’m not chiding - it’s an easy mistake to make. 
 

I attended a conference in 2010, if memory serves.  Abigail was about 2 and Melanie was pregnant with Bethy (?) but hadn’t announced yet.  I spoke briefly to other conference-goers at the sales table and exchanged a smile and hello with Anna when she approached me from behind the sales table, as any good clerk would do. 
 

They sponsors had, as a gift to the family, a professionally calligraphed prayer (or Bible verse?), beautifully framed but without the glass. It was  available for attendees to sign the mat before the glass was to be added and the artwork presented to the family. I signed Jinger Freeh, very unobtrusively.

Other than that, I touched nothing but my chair in the audience. In my defense, also, there were no rules against FJ … leave-behinds at the time, or I never would have.  Junebug shells are deceptively fragile when hand-slapped.

My apologies for blending the two events into one in my mind. @treemom I hadn't realized this was something you wanted to leave behind. Perhaps the timing wasn't the best (not all of the children were of legal age to make a break for it, so planting that seed back then might have been a bit premature, though I know your heart was in the right place) but as both of you have stated, there were no official FJ rules preventing that sort of thing. And I agree that it's for the best that we have poop-touching prohibitions in place, and that contacting them NOW would be out of place given that they've voluntarily exited the spotlight. (Showing up at a conference was fair game when they were putting themselves out there and publicly announcing it. Shoot, I thought about it when they came to a homeschool convention in my state - I had even sewed the jumper featured on their blog by then, though it didn't look nearly as good on my lumpy frame as it did on the skinny Max ladies - but there were too many people I knew in real life actually ARE homeschoolers and would've likely blown my cover.)

So I apologize again if that was uncomfortable for either of you that I brought those visits up. I do still wonder if the girls ever thought about that in the years that followed, especially as (if I'm recalling correctly - and now I'm doubting myself!) it seems @treemom wanted to convey that Steve was overly controlling, and was clearly right on the money with that.

[treemom]

42 minutes ago, Sister Mozz said:

I really can't get over Sarah's involvement at church camp. She always seemed separate from her nieces and nephews, always behind the camera while Anna and Mary helped. She seemed quiet, reserved, and uncomfortable in general. Do you know how comfortable you have to be to play games on stage in front of teenagers? Especially physically active games? I've been involved with the youth at my church for over a decade. I'm the "bake the cookies, talk about your day, help you with your homework, take pictures, assistant driver to activities" kind of youth worker. I wouldn't be up on the stage playing games, it's not my personality. And I never would have thought Sarah would either! This is amazing and wonderful. Way to go, Sarah!

Steve hated the teen youth groups more than he hated any sort of youth/child program.  He thought separating anyone from the parents was bad but he had a special ire for youth groups.  Probably because teens are even more likely to be influenced by peers over parents.  With a seven year old parents probably win most of the time.

 

I take a special sort of schadenfreude of how much Steve hates this internally. Even if his mouth is closed.  And I look forward to reading his anger in future seriously dads.

 

I am so happy for her.  She lived on her own which is really a bigger thing in escaping her controlling father than getting married.  She seems happy and she seems to be making choices on her own.

5 minutes ago, Bethy said:

 

My apologies for blending the two events into one in my mind. @treemom I hadn't realized this was something you wanted to leave behind. Perhaps the timing wasn't the best (not all of the children were of legal age to make a break for it, so planting that seed back then might have been a bit premature, though I know your heart was in the right place) but as both of you have stated, there were no official FJ rules preventing that sort of thing. And I agree that it's for the best that we have poop-touching prohibitions in place, and that contacting them NOW would be out of place given that they've voluntarily exited the spotlight. (Showing up at a conference was fair game when they were putting themselves out there and publicly announcing it. Shoot, I thought about it when they came to a homeschool convention in my state - I had even sewed the jumper featured on their blog by then, though it didn't look nearly as good on my lumpy frame as it did on the skinny Max ladies - but there were too many people I knew in real life actually ARE homeschoolers and would've likely blown my cover.)

So I apologize again if that was uncomfortable for either of you that I brought those visits up. I do still wonder if the girls ever thought about that in the years that followed, especially as (if I'm recalling correctly - and now I'm doubting myself!) it seems @treemom wanted to convey that Steve was overly controlling, and was clearly right on the money with that.

Oh no worries.  I mean I did it.  I came for head pats.  Eventually people expressed their real feelings about it and it made me reconsider my actions and grow.  It is part of my life and the board culture.  I just like to correct the story sometimes because it has been repeated incorrectly and also used to specifically harm me (contacts with my employer, a package sent to my divorce attorney).  But I’m in a different place now.

 

I will admit I have thought of that interaction and how the three women view it now.  I highly doubt it did anything much, and because it was a little creepy/deranged probably made it easier for Steve to control them longer.  But who knows.  It was a ten minute interaction with the whole family and a 45 second one with Mary selling the books in the lobby. (I can’t remember exactly what my long monologue was in the sanctuary but I do know I swore and and I said he was crippling his kids and that they had already suffered pain because of this.  With Mary I know exactly what I said and that interaction is burned in my mind.  I told her she had Stockholm syndrome, her dad was a controlling narcissist, and that there were people out there, people who were members of that very church who would help her.  It’s important to remember that this was at  church I regularly participated in events at and this event was publicly put up on the Panera down the street which was also the Panera a block from where I worked.  I knew women in that church who weren’t bus humping heathens like me that would help her.  Mary was never going to be able to be helped by a me anyhow.  She needed a Christian, probably conservative Baptist woman.)

I mostly hope they are happy.  And I hope the people in their lives support and love them.

 

 

eta to add a rambly paragraph.  I don’t want to cause my self issues again, and I believe my critics were very accurate about a lot of things.  But I have thought about that interaction a bit as the Maxwells found freedom over the last year

Edited July 7, 2022 by treemom

[Caroline]

44 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Thank You!

I also was uncomfortable with the idea that people should buy Sarah gifts.

I recommend donating to PFLAG, the Trevor Project, GLAAD, or any organization that supports gay rights. Most churches even mainstream ones still are anti-gay rights. Sarah and Kory are most likely homophobic.

If Sarah has come as far as she has in just a year, maybe she'll keep on evolving into a more accepting person in time.  

I've known a few people (not fundies like the Maxwells) who've come a long way in terms of accepting the changes in society and the many different kinds of people with whom we live.  I hope they'll evolve anyway.

[treemom]

And I know Sarah was and I think Anna was over 18.  The only minor I spoke directly to was Mary.