Maxwell 53: Escaping the Borg by Marriage. Who'd Have Thought Sarah?

[Bethy]

2 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

Remember how we always remarked that Sarah's smile never reached her eyes? That is the most joyful expression we have ever seen her with.

Riding the idle speculation bus:

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This happened quickly enough that I can't help but wonder if Kory and Sarah didn't meet years ago. Perhaps the attraction was mutual, Kory asked Steve for permission to court Sarah and was refused. Fast forward to last year with Sarah moving out. She may have gotten in touch with Kory, and the flame was rekindled, but no need to ask Steve this time.

 

If that was a novel, I'd totally read it.

Though outside of John having a connection through his irrigation business, I don't have a clue how their paths would have crossed. Their churches are very dissimilar (though I don't know if Trinity is where Kory grew up) and someone upthread mentioned that he attended public school so they'd not have had need of a homeschool convention. I went back through John and Chelsy's wedding pictures searching to see if he'd pop up in the background somewhere but came up empty. (I did discover - and I'm sure this came up when we discovered Jesse and Anna's engagement - that the Craigs did the music for John and Chelsy's wedding. Also spotted John-Marie's sister in the reception at John and Chelsy's wedding.) Nor did I find anything in any of the Oklahoma conference reports from 2011 or 2014.

[treemom]

I think it’s possible they met on a Christian dating app/site.  She is living a much more mainstream life now. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, MamaJunebug said:

May their marriage be  healthy, happy and no closer to the czar*  than they want it to be!

*Yep, a “Fiddler” reference   Life is a song cue! 

So that thoughtful won’t have to, here’s the lines as I recall them:

TOWNSPERSON: Rabbi, is there a proper blessing for the czar?

(All on stage fall silent)

RABBI: A blessing for the czar? Of course! (He sings) May God bless and keep the czar — (he speaks) far away from us!  

One of the most memorable moments in Maxwell was John finding it "spooky" that Chelsy and his grandma Gigi both said "Tradition' in the same way. They both said it as a Fiddler reference. Poor John had never seen Fiddler on the Roof.

The Bontragers are still worse than Steve, even if they have more fun. (Several members of the family including Josh and Marlin Bontrager were at the outdoor part of the failed coup.)

 

[nelliebelle1197]

For those of you who are calling for @Palimpsest I have her contact information and just emailed her!

[HereticHick]

I wonder if Kory has possibly gone on mission trips--perhaps John Maxwell met him on a mission trip that involved agriculture?

[Sister Mozz]

33 minutes ago, treemom said:

I think it’s possible they met on a Christian dating app/site.  She is living a much more mainstream life now. 

This is my guess. 

[FloraKitty35]

I wish Sarah well and I hope that's she's getting to live the kind of life that she wants for herself.  

[theologygeek]

2 hours ago, treemom said:

Oh no worries.  I mean I did it.  I came for head pats.  Eventually people expressed their real feelings about it and it made me reconsider my actions and grow.  It is part of my life and the board culture.  I just like to correct the story sometimes because it has been repeated incorrectly and also used to specifically harm me (contacts with my employer, a package sent to my divorce attorney).  But I’m in a different place now.

Oh geez, people from here did that to you?  Where was I when all that happened?  I always liked you for what it's worth.  

[hoipolloi]

4 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

Kory asked Steve for permission to court Sarah and was refused

This is possible and there is at least one precedent in fundiedom. Years ago, Marcus Serven refused to allow his oldest daughter, the adult Rebecca, to be courted by her now-husband, Steven Loomis. Several years later, Steven tried again and he and Rebecca were finally allowed to marry. IIRC, they first met in 2003 or so, Steven tried to court her in 2005 & was refused, and they finally married in 2009. Somehow, this did not strike me as being an example of "Godʻs perfect timing."

In Sarahʻs & Koryʻs case, a Christian app or dating site seems more likely, especially since Sarah has been living on her own for the past year or so. 

[theologygeek]

2 hours ago, Bethy said:

If that was a novel, I'd totally read it.

Though outside of John having a connection through his irrigation business, I don't have a clue how their paths would have crossed. Their churches are very dissimilar (though I don't know if Trinity is where Kory grew up) and someone upthread mentioned that he attended public school so they'd not have had need of a homeschool convention. I went back through John and Chelsy's wedding pictures searching to see if he'd pop up in the background somewhere but came up empty. (I did discover - and I'm sure this came up when we discovered Jesse and Anna's engagement - that the Craigs did the music for John and Chelsy's wedding. Also spotted John-Marie's sister in the reception at John and Chelsy's wedding.) Nor did I find anything in any of the Oklahoma conference reports from 2011 or 2014.

Someone with the last name Bollinger commented on the Bontrager blog a few times.  I don't think it's a common name.  

[Bethy]

2 minutes ago, theologygeek said:

Someone with the last name Bollinger commented on the Bontrager blog a few times.  I don't think it's a common name.  

Maybe I was looking with the wrong guests. I was only looking on the groom's side at John and Chelsy's wedding, assuming it was a connection through John.

1 hour ago, treemom said:

I think it’s possible they met on a Christian dating app/site.  She is living a much more mainstream life now. 

That could explain the intentionality, if they really connected for the first time within the last year. If that's the case, I hope she's taken the time to get to know him (as well as her own mind) and isn't just taking the first non-widowed, non-divorced guy near her age.

[treemom]

32 minutes ago, theologygeek said:

Oh geez, people from here did that to you?  Where was I when all that happened?  I always liked you for what it's worth.  

I don’t know who did it, but I do know that was the driving thing because it was literally printed off pictures and postings.  The last time it resurfaced was about 5 years ago in the middle of my endless unfortunately messy and heartbreaking divorce.  
 

I always tense up when it gets brought up again because I worry it will show it’s face in my real life again.  I’ve tried over the years to be more mindful and kind.  And hopefully they have moved on too.  

[Coconut Flan]

I have a reasonable idea of who likely did it not that it will help now.  I'm sure someone will remember the name.  There was a blog that hated FJ, hated Raising Ruth, and seemed determined to track down trolls and anyone they decided not to like.  They printed off all their research on Raising Ruth's entire internet presence under all her identities and sent it to Chris's now ex-husband and it was used in his divorce case.  

Edited July 7, 2022 by Coconut Flan

[DonutWench]

I don’t think I’ve every actually been HAPPY about a fundie engagement or marriage while they were still anywhere “in it” (as opposed to having already obviously rejected the more toxic beliefs) but I can’t help but be genuinely happy for Sarah.

I hope she spends the rest of her life getting to experience everything that she wants to that was so cruelly and unfairly denied or taken taken from her for most of her life until recently, and if she and her future spouse have children, that it’s because they truly want them and that they do so much better by them. 
 

 

[treemom]

10 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

I have a reasonable idea of who likely did it not that it will help now.  I'm sure someone will remember the name.  There was a blog that hated FJ, hated Raising Ruth, and seemed determined to track down trolls and anyone they decided not to like.  They printed off all their research on Raising Ruth's entire internet presence under all her identities and sent it to Chris's now ex-husband and it was used in his divorce case.  

I don’t want to poke the bear by speculating.  Everyone has moved on.  I have tried to keep the ample valid critical feedback in mind as I grow as a human and I think I have made Sarah’s engagement enough about me at this point.  
 

[Bethy]

4 hours ago, Sister Mozz said:

I really can't get over Sarah's involvement at church camp. She always seemed separate from her nieces and nephews, always behind the camera while Anna and Mary helped. She seemed quiet, reserved, and uncomfortable in general. Do you know how comfortable you have to be to play games on stage in front of teenagers? Especially physically active games? I've been involved with the youth at my church for over a decade. I'm the "bake the cookies, talk about your day, help you with your homework, take pictures, assistant driver to activities" kind of youth worker. I wouldn't be up on the stage playing games, it's not my personality. And I never would have thought Sarah would either! This is amazing and wonderful. Way to go, Sarah!

If you think about her upbringing, and what was valued...I'm almost 100% positive there was Gothard/ATI influence at least early on. They value large families with a row of children walking in step behind the parents (think early Duggar specials.) She was raised in modesty culture, taught to sit like a lady and keep her legs covered. "Meek and quiet spirit" was undoubtedly sought and praised (I mean, it's part of one of her mom's book titles) She wouldn't have received approval/positive reinforcement if she wasn't toeing that line. Maybe she didn't receive approval/positive reinforcement anyway. Then fast-forward to this setting - she's loved (the kids' testimonies and Kory's remarks make that clear) and feels safe to be herself. There's no praise/reward for sitting quietly in the corner, no need to be overly humble and avoid the spotlight. No one expects her to take all the pictures and keep the blog up to date so that mental load is gone. Maybe there was depression or anxiety that's being treated for the first time ever - no way to know that last part for sure, but her body language says she's comfortable here.

[Mela99]

Unless Sarah has asked him not to, Steve should acknowledge her engagement, at least in a Seriously column if not on the blog. And he needs to update her bio since that "right guy" has arrived. 

Even if she asked him not to, I don’t believe he would defer to her.

[fundiefan]

I think when Sarah left the blog, the "business" and the house, she did so for many reasons. And I think privacy was a part of that. Her entire life was online, the dog & pony shows, Titus2. All ventures of her parents, none of her own. When she made the giant leap of living on her own, I would bet my her privacy was brought up and made an issue. I don't think Steve or Teri will make a blog post about her. Two of her younger brothers succeeded at keeping their lives off the blog & private - Joseph & Jesse. Both only had minimal mentions & only as part of the family events; no personal posts after Jesse's new house for either brother. Sarah seems to want to follow them in that regard. I think Anna & Mary too. They are all done with the dog & pony show, in every possible way now and I'd be wiling to bet the blog is 100% dead. And that's not a bad thing. I hope they live their lives without anymore public propaganda for their parent's sake. 

[MamaJunebug]

6 hours ago, Bethy said:

So I apologize again if that was uncomfortable for either of you that I brought those visits up.

Not at all embarrassing to me, but thank you for being so gracious. I’d do it all over again, except I’d sign it Katerina Luther.  

3 hours ago, theologygeek said:

Someone with the last name Bollinger commented on the Bontrager blog a few times.  I don't think it's a common name.  

It’s actually fairly common in eastern and southeastern Missouri, oddly enough. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by MamaJunebug

[Cults-r-us]

3 hours ago, DonutWench said:

I don’t think I’ve every actually been HAPPY about a fundie engagement or marriage while they were still anywhere “in it” (as opposed to having already obviously rejected the more toxic beliefs) but I can’t help but be genuinely happy for Sarah.

I hope she spends the rest of her life getting to experience everything that she wants to that was so cruelly and unfairly denied or taken taken from her for most of her life until recently, and if she and her future spouse have children, that it’s because they truly want them and that they do so much better by them. 
 

 

I can't help it: I am so happy for Sarah Maxwell!

[Captain Obvious]

11 hours ago, Howl said:

The SAHD movement required that the daughter stay under the father's protection (and roof) until the actual wedding where that supervision was transferred to the new husband.   

Do we know that the Maxwells actually subscribe to that though? 

I know its easy to assume that, because fundies, but there were several blog posts that stated that the girls had been given the option to move out previously, but chose not to, and also that they had been given the option to consider whether they would attend college, but also 'chose' not to. Sure, it was pretty obvious that Steve was heavily influencing them to stay at home, so maybe those choices weren't real choices, but I don't think those options would even have been mentioned on the blog if the rule actually was that the girls couldn't leave home until marriage.

Also - I've said this before and I'll say it again - I don't think what has happened with Sarah, Anna and Mary over the past 12 months necessarily indicates a change in Steve's views. This is because we don't really know what his views are on what adult daughters should be allowed to do in the first place. There's an assumption they will marry but other than that - not much.

The Maxwell books are primarily about raising sons, and how adult sons are supposed to behave (work hard, buy a home debt free on one income, raise children in the same way), not about raising daughters specifically. The key focus of the Maxwellian way is to promote the idea that the world is dangerous and children need to be isolated from it, otherwise they won't grow up to be conservative evangelical Christians.

But Sarah, Anna and Mary are no longer children and have repeatedly demonstrated that they are dedicated to their faith and to Christian ministry/missions work. Steve couldn't make the argument that they needed to be isolated to protect their faith once they reached adulthood and were still obviously the right kind of Christians - and I'm not sure he even did. All the girls have been able to travel independently, A & M did mission trips overseas, and they've got friends all over the country whom they visit. It might have actually been the case that A & M's decision not to move out might have been more financial than anything - unlike Sarah, I don't think either of them work full time and any money they earned was probably going on their mission trips and now on their college (which is cheaper anyway since they're on scholarships).

I also think that - though he would never admit it publicly - it would have been a source of shame for Steve that none of the daughters had married, because it is the crowning glory for a fundie father to have his child marry, as a virgin, to another fundie. I'm absolutely sure that Teri would have dealt with many other moms commiserating with her, offering to pray for her and the girls as if they were source of pity, and that Teri would have relayed that back to him. So while Steve would also never admit that he allowed the girls to move out to find husbands, I'm absolutely sure it was an unspoken reason at the back of his mind.

But it would still also be within Maxwellian thinking that girls can move out and/or attend college if they've established themselves to be the right kind of Christians, if it doesn't cost Steve too much money and if it's for ostensibly for religious or family reasons (missions/ministry work or to better serve the local church and the family businesses).

Edited July 8, 2022 by Captain Obvious

[ElizaB]

Is it possible they could have met at a joint church event? I think Sarah had been getting more and more involved in the church they were going to. It’s possible that they could have crossed paths at an event both churches were participating in. There could have easily been a conference, some sort of rally for life, or other event that people from various churches were at. 

[Captain Obvious]

8 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I always thought the “No college” thing made no sense in Maxhell. Steve had a good job because he went to college. Teri and Steve MET at college. There would be no Maxwell family without college! Steve and Teri may not have been amazing homeschoolers. But they were better than a lot of these huge fundie homeschool families. You can see the huge difference by looking at Sarah’s writing and then looking at Nurie’s writing 😬Steve seemed like the type that could possibly allow a local Bible college for his boys to commute to back in the day. But he didn’t even allow that! Now that’s strict and controlling. It’s crazy how different it is now. 

No college for the boys makes sense in Maxwellian thinking. They have to start working and saving to buy a home debt free from a young age - college costs money and would ruin those plans. (Ironically, it also means that becoming a pastor or missionary is almost frowned upon for a boy, because those careers also interfere with earning capacity and the ability to buy a house debt free - there's not a lot of money in them,)

I actually think women have slightly more freedom to attend college in Maxwellism, and always have - because they don't have the same obligation to buy a house, any money they earn is theirs to spend. And they're also more free to explore ministry and missionary options in their unmarried years, because they don't need to be limited to money-earning activities. So provided that college is for religious purposes only, and doesn't cost too much money, it can be an option. 

Steve just needed to be persuaded that there was a college that met his extremely high standards. Since he has been effusive about their church being Biblical enough for them, he obviously highly values their pastor's opinion (and the pastor has a doctorate himself) and the pastor's endorsement of ABC would have been a key factor, 

[MomJeans]

9 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

Remember how we always remarked that Sarah's smile never reached her eyes? That is the most joyful expression we have ever seen her with.

Riding the idle speculation bus:

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This happened quickly enough that I can't help but wonder if Kory and Sarah didn't meet years ago. Perhaps the attraction was mutual, Kory asked Steve for permission to court Sarah and was refused. Fast forward to last year with Sarah moving out. She may have gotten in touch with Kory, and the flame was rekindled, but no need to ask Steve this time.

 

As a lifelong fan of Jane Austen's Persuasion, I would love if this was true!

[Jackie3]

Oh my goodness, there is a God! I am so happy for Sarah. I don't follow the Maxwells that closely so I didn't see this coming, but I am so happy for her. Her father stole the early part of her life, but there is still time for her to. have fun (and love!)