Maxwell 53: Escaping the Borg by Marriage. Who'd Have Thought Sarah?

[Bethy]

12 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

OMFG. Talk about a goldmine of snark.

How are you able to see anything? I'm getting turned away because I'm not logged in.

[nokidsmom]

On 7/6/2022 at 4:59 PM, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I just realized that not only is Sarah moving out of the neighborhood, she's moving out of town and 5 hours away out of state.

Woo and hoo for her. She'll be too far away for Steve to bother. Too far to be expected to babysit her nieces/ nephews.  Too far to take care of Stevehovah and Teri, which I always thought was their plan for Sarah.

And this is another reason why I am happy for her.   She's not just getting married but she will moving enough of a distance where it's not going to be convenient for family to call on her for more free labor than she already has given them.   

[hoipolloi]

18 minutes ago, Bethy said:

How are you able to see anything? I'm getting turned away because I'm not logged in.

I am not logged in either. Not sure why you're unable to see anything.

[theologygeek]

1 hour ago, Bethy said:

How are you able to see anything? I'm getting turned away because I'm not logged in.

Don't click on the moth board.  That one is private.  The moms board posts are visible.  Some other ones are too.  

[caitrona]

3 hours ago, Bethy said:

Wow...I had managed to forget that whole site (it was still linked on the Titus2 page when I first discovered the Maxwells.) Interesting things I found today via Wayback Machine:

• The modesty screed wasn't there until 2004. It wasn't even mentioned until then. But it stayed there, front and center, until the end of the site. I feel like the early 2000s were a time in Evangelical/fundie-lite circles where people were getting their proverbial knickers in a twist about modesty for some reason. The Harris brothers (The Rebelution) launched that icky modesty survey in late 2006. People were literally having debates over whether an ankle-length skirt with a knee-high slit was more or less modest than a knee-length skirt (a surprising number believed the slit was inherently less modest, even if it actually revealed LESS leg than a knee-length skirt. Sarah mentions slits and the "peek-a-boo effect" on the Daughters site.) Many folks were dogmatic about the fact that anything sheer or flesh-colored counted as nudity - or possibly was WORSE than nudity. A whole lot of fundie bloggers from that era that I've kept track of here and there over the years were strictly skirts-only then, but dress more normally now.

A lot of this may track with Fox News et. al. losing their minds over Michelle Obama wearing sleeveless outfits, along with more women lawmakers wearing more fashionable/less-Nancy Reagan-ish clothes. Lots of pearl clutching over what was "appropriate" for a powerful/public woman to wear. 

[fundiefan]

12 minutes ago, caitrona said:

A lot of this may track with Fox News et. al. losing their minds over Michelle Obama wearing sleeveless outfits, along with more women lawmakers wearing more fashionable/less-Nancy Reagan-ish clothes. Lots of pearl clutching over what was "appropriate" for a powerful/public woman to wear. 

While at the same time, they praised Melania Trump for being "classy". 

Fundies have right & wrong entirely confused. 

The Obamas were well educated, upstanding citizens, one marriage, two kids. No skeletons in their closet. But he wore a tan suit & she wore a sleeveless dress! He wasn't born here (he was). He is Muslim (No, He's not). (Ie: they are black). 

tRump on wife #3, having cheated on all wives. Reputable abuse accusations. Liar. Cheater. Narcissist. Gluttonous. Selfish pig. Wife #3 posed nude & contributres nothing to society. Hallelujah praise tRump He is forgiven, he's sent by god. He's a Christian (because he says so). (ie: he's white & gives them permission to say the quite parts outload & hate openly).

[Bethy]

5 hours ago, theologygeek said:

he really thinks he's God with the confession.  

In one of the Moody books (which I think we are all in agreement are Sarah's recollection of childhood, repackaged with all "M" names) one of the older children goes to the other to confess that he'd had a bad attitude in his heart toward her. She of course forgives him. So I'm sure they needed to set aside family time to confess every negative thought.

Really unhelpful, that. I was on the receiving end of a few "fauxpologies" in my fundie-lite church. "I need to ask your forgiveness for the resentment I've harbored against you." Well thank you very much, I had no idea, but now my natural curiosity has me asking "Why?" and you now have carte blanche to unload and guilt-trip me for every time I looked at you wrong for the last decade.

If it happened solely in your heart you should probably just deal with it there.

[Caroline]

4 hours ago, theologygeek said:

Here you go @hoipolloi  I found the moms board.  https://web.archive.org/web/20030401115635/http://titus2.com/forums/  

I got a little too caught up on a few discussions on that board.  There was an intense one about what books your precious children should be allowed to read and another lengthy one about the evils of Halloween, including a long screed about a writer's involvement in what she implied was sacrificing a baby on Halloween.  They all sound nutty and all had young children in 2002/2003.  I'd love to know how many of them left their crazy ways and now live normal lives.  I also wonder how many of there kids kept the crazy going.  We know that at least three of the children of the forum's organizer seem to be on their way to a more normal existence.  

I mentioned a while ago that I'd be reading a book this summer about Generation Z (all of the teachers and staff in the building are reading it). I'm almost finished with it and one thing that occurs to me is that these religious nervous Nellies who homeschooled their kids in the early 2000's have created a lot of the problems we're seeing in Gen Z.  The author theorizes that all of the protectionism has led to very anxious kids who are anxious because they don't want to do things wrong or encouraged to do normal things (getting jobs, going out to play alone, getting a driver's license at 16, etc.).  They've not been allowed to make mistakes and have always had others making all of their decisions and planning every aspect of their lives , and now as adults they don't know how to make ordinary decisions in the world. And of course you'd be anxious if someone else controlled every aspect of your life.  It's easier, but it doesn't feel right since teenagers are hard-wired to seek independence.  What is going on in that forum is a perfect recipe for anxiety.  That's what makes the escape of S, A, and M even more remarkable.  

I've simplified some aspects of the book because you all don't want me to record it all here, I'm sure.  Thank you for posting a link to the forum.  Fascinating reading.

[Bethy]

JACKPOT! I found the airport trip mention in a Teri Maxwell article shared by @MamaJunebug back in 2011:

 

Whoo, bonus! Thanks to the folks over at "Teri maxwell on Modesty" I've discovered that in 1999 they were still going to a church where there were people the kids' ages!

  Quote

Here are two articles by my Mom that I thought you girls would enjoy! These were written in 1999.

~Sarah~

I am going to share with you two posts I once wrote to the MOMYS digest on the issue of modest dressing..

In addition to what is in the posts, we also discovered this year that necklines in the back were a concern for us. I purchased two dresses of a similar style that were just on the border of okay for us at the front neckline. However, the back neckline was just a bit deeper than I would normally wear. No big deal, I thought. My hair will cover it up. What I didnt consider was how a dress with a rather large neck shifts. It wanted to come forward because of the larger back neck. I did discover this in my family style show before I had worn the dresses so that they could be returned.

The first post I am copying here had to do with how we have tried to teach our daughters to dress modestly. The second one was in response to another post asking for specifics on eye traps that I mentioned in the first message.

Trusting in Jesus,

Teri Maxwell

Modest Dressing

Post 1

It is interesting for me to look back on how we have passed on the idea of modesty to our oldest daughter (our other girls are young enough to still be in the learning stages in this area). As with so much of our parenting we have no plan, simply a continual crying out to the Lord for His wisdom and direction.

For the last ten to twelve years of my walk with the Lord, I have been more aware of the issue of modest dress for women. Because of this, it has been something Sarah and I have regularly talked about as I share with her the choices I make in clothing and why I make them. She has readily accepted these same standards.

One of the most helpful things we did was when we had a school assignment on dressing modestly. There were some very specific examples with drawings given of eye traps. These were styles of womens clothing that draw the eye away from the face and to other parts of the body. Some were a revelation to me! I had to go to my husband and ask, Steve, if you see a woman with a slit in her skirt does it draw your eyes to her legs? We went through each of the examples and he confirmed that they were eye traps for men. We also went to the airport and sat the family in a busy spot. We watched the people specifically watching mens eyes as they looked at women with some of these clothing styles on. Ugh! What a lesson for our daughter!

Sarah and I discuss our clothing when we are shopping, sewing, or something is given to us in light of its modesty and how it looks on us. We style show for Steve getting his opinion as a man and the head of our home on something we might wonder about. We have some styles that we know we would not wear; no discussion or decisions there. Other things will sometimes depend on how the outfit actually fits.

Sarah has come away with a great modest- but-lovely way of dressing. She is out of vogue with some of the girls in our church. Quite often this is a topic of conversation between she and I that she will bring up after church. It will go something like this, Mom, did you notice what so and so had on today? I dont understand how she can choose to dress like that. I wonder why her parents dont encourage her to dress modestly. She and I are quite aware of this because we know that my husband, twenty-three year old and twenty year old sons are sitting there in church with us, easily able to observe any clothing (and the one wearing it) that isnt modest.

Not dressing the way others do, even within our church, has given Sarah and I many opportunities to discuss the importance of her knowing why she does what she does. If she is simply following what Steve and I want her to do, then she will not have a strong testimony when others question her on her standards. If, on the other hand, she understands that the choices I make are out of my love for Jesus Christ and how I interpret following Him and His Word and she makes her choices based on the same, then she will gain a hearing and perhaps even the respect of those who question her. Let me tell you; they do question her! When she helps out at the home of a family with young children, almost always the parents will ask her many, many questions about what our family is really like behind the scenes even concerning our dress standards!

I love seeing the beauty and radiance of the young ladies in our church who have chosen to dress modestly. It brings such delight to my heart as I observe them.

Trusting in Jesus,

Teri Maxwell

[JermajestyDuggar]

12 minutes ago, Bethy said:

JACKPOT! I found the airport trip mention in a Teri Maxwell article shared by @MamaJunebug back in 2011:

 

Whoo, bonus! Thanks to the folks over at "Teri maxwell on Modesty" I've discovered that in 1999 they were still going to a church where there were people the kids' ages!

  Quote

Here are two articles by my Mom that I thought you girls would enjoy! These were written in 1999.

~Sarah~

I am going to share with you two posts I once wrote to the MOMYS digest on the issue of modest dressing..

In addition to what is in the posts, we also discovered this year that necklines in the back were a concern for us. I purchased two dresses of a similar style that were just on the border of okay for us at the front neckline. However, the back neckline was just a bit deeper than I would normally wear. No big deal, I thought. My hair will cover it up. What I didnt consider was how a dress with a rather large neck shifts. It wanted to come forward because of the larger back neck. I did discover this in my family style show before I had worn the dresses so that they could be returned.

The first post I am copying here had to do with how we have tried to teach our daughters to dress modestly. The second one was in response to another post asking for specifics on eye traps that I mentioned in the first message.

Trusting in Jesus,

Teri Maxwell

Modest Dressing

Post 1

It is interesting for me to look back on how we have passed on the idea of modesty to our oldest daughter (our other girls are young enough to still be in the learning stages in this area). As with so much of our parenting we have no plan, simply a continual crying out to the Lord for His wisdom and direction.

For the last ten to twelve years of my walk with the Lord, I have been more aware of the issue of modest dress for women. Because of this, it has been something Sarah and I have regularly talked about as I share with her the choices I make in clothing and why I make them. She has readily accepted these same standards.

One of the most helpful things we did was when we had a school assignment on dressing modestly. There were some very specific examples with drawings given of eye traps. These were styles of womens clothing that draw the eye away from the face and to other parts of the body. Some were a revelation to me! I had to go to my husband and ask, Steve, if you see a woman with a slit in her skirt does it draw your eyes to her legs? We went through each of the examples and he confirmed that they were eye traps for men. We also went to the airport and sat the family in a busy spot. We watched the people specifically watching mens eyes as they looked at women with some of these clothing styles on. Ugh! What a lesson for our daughter!

Sarah and I discuss our clothing when we are shopping, sewing, or something is given to us in light of its modesty and how it looks on us. We style show for Steve getting his opinion as a man and the head of our home on something we might wonder about. We have some styles that we know we would not wear; no discussion or decisions there. Other things will sometimes depend on how the outfit actually fits.

Sarah has come away with a great modest- but-lovely way of dressing. She is out of vogue with some of the girls in our church. Quite often this is a topic of conversation between she and I that she will bring up after church. It will go something like this, Mom, did you notice what so and so had on today? I dont understand how she can choose to dress like that. I wonder why her parents dont encourage her to dress modestly. She and I are quite aware of this because we know that my husband, twenty-three year old and twenty year old sons are sitting there in church with us, easily able to observe any clothing (and the one wearing it) that isnt modest.

Not dressing the way others do, even within our church, has given Sarah and I many opportunities to discuss the importance of her knowing why she does what she does. If she is simply following what Steve and I want her to do, then she will not have a strong testimony when others question her on her standards. If, on the other hand, she understands that the choices I make are out of my love for Jesus Christ and how I interpret following Him and His Word and she makes her choices based on the same, then she will gain a hearing and perhaps even the respect of those who question her. Let me tell you; they do question her! When she helps out at the home of a family with young children, almost always the parents will ask her many, many questions about what our family is really like behind the scenes even concerning our dress standards!

I love seeing the beauty and radiance of the young ladies in our church who have chosen to dress modestly. It brings such delight to my heart as I observe them.

Trusting in Jesus,

Teri Maxwell

They are so judgmental. I would never go to an airport and point out every article of clothing I think is immodest. And Teri wanting her teen daughter to degrade a girl at church for her outfit is gossipy and mean spirited. I am not a Christian but I’m pretty positive Jesus wouldn’t have done something like that. How nasty their conversations about others must’ve been every Sunday after church. 

But what I will say is that I bet Sarah would cringe so hard if she read that today. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[MamaJunebug]

Teri’s grammar are so badly. 
 

SERIOUSLY: It’s a miracle any of her children write and speak intelligently enough to earn professional livings after being home schooled by her. 
 

And the “family style show?” In which they dressed and moved about for Steve’s judgmental review?  Cree-P with a capital “creepy.”

Those skinny jeans Sarah wore in the proposal — it’s more miraculous every time I think about it, that she wore them 

Y'know what else? I love that as she saw Kory on one knee, she didn’t cover her mouth in (feigned or genuine) surprise, as seems de rigueur for GYMs at that point in the script. She tucked her hair behind her ears with both hands and gave her man a big Ole HUG!

Love ya, Sarah! 

[MomJeans]

To me this settles that the Maxwells studied Gothard teachings - most of us have seen the “ eye traps” worksheet before. The image of Terri asking Steve if each eye trap illustration was a problem just made me gag a bit.

I also just gained a new appreciation for how isolated Sarah was as the only girl in the older sibling group. 

[SoSoNosy]

I didn't know they ever actually shopped for clothes; I thought they shopped for fabric and had ever so much fun making their clothes.  I remember one birthday post that was such an exciting fabric shopping trip.

 

 

[Bethy]

6 minutes ago, SoSoNosy said:

I didn't know they ever actually shopped for clothes; I thought they shopped for fabric and had ever so much fun making their clothes.  I remember one birthday post that was such an exciting fabric shopping trip.

There's speculation that they started to enjoy the sewing a little TOO much (idolatry!) so it was stopped. From old blog posts it looks like they had a mix of homemade and store-bought (with the slits dutifully sewn up if they happened to accidentally acquire a jumper that had one) way back in the day. Then there was a hodgepodge of different jumper patterns (and poor Mary, because she was still growing, usually had a contrast band sewn around the bottom of hers to keep it ankle length.) By 2009 they were All About The McCalls 3129 (the one with the princess seams that flared at the hem) which was their go-to matchy jumper in green paisley (2009) and then the red paisley with the birthday shopping trip to get more to make outfits for NR-Anna and Mel (2010.) But they didn't limit their McCalls jumpers to just the annual matchy-matchy set for conferences and the carefully-scheduled fall family portrait. They all had scads of them in a bunch of (mostly light-colored) calicos. There were a few years there where literally all you ever saw them in was jumpers and then bam! Button-downs/polos (layered with another shirt underneath, always) and long denim or khaki skirts. Then the hemlines crept from shoe-top to upper-mid-calf. After that it was the age of the puffer vests. The last Christmas they posted on the blog there were a lot of blankets over laps in the immediate-family pics which in hindsight has me wondering if they were wearing *gasp* PJ pants at home. Now they're out in public wearing shorts and skinny jeans and shirts with logos across the front. What a long, strange trip it's been!

[anjulibai]

It was Mary that really liked sewing. She used to sew a lot and was apparently very good at it. Teri even had post about how had been surprised by how quickly Mary took to sewing and taughter herself techniques, despite Teri not really liking to sew.

Then Mary seemed to stop sewing, and took up "art". 

I suppose it became an idol, the way John was good at a particular instrument and was made to stop to do one he didn't enjoy. 

Anything the kids displayed any hint of passion for was banned, and replaced by things they weren't really interested in. 

I hope Mary can start sewing again, now that she's away from Steve. 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by anjulibai

[SoSoNosy]

Someone should find an activity that Steve absolutely despises, and find a reason that would force him to repeat this activity at least twice a day.

[theologygeek]

2 hours ago, Bethy said:

JACKPOT! I found the airport trip mention in a Teri Maxwell article shared by @MamaJunebug back in 2011:

Thank you!  It was driving me crazy lol  

[ElizaB]

I believe a lot changed for them when they stopped touring. The matching jumpers were "necessary" when they did conferences because they wanted to match. I think it also made packing/laundry easier. 

I often wonder if some of their choices were made in order to fit the "brand" they had made for themselves. I think several years ago they were making good money on the conference circuit and selling books. It was super important to them to keep their image in order to continue doing what they were doing. Now, I am not saying they didn't believe in everything they were doing. However, I think they were also carefully presenting an exact image that they wanted the world to see. 

Eventually, Steve and Teri probably realized they had enough money for retirement so they stopped touring and then eventually stopped caring too much about selling their books. None of their kids wanted to take over titus2 so it stopped. They've let the "brand" go now. 

[Captain Obvious]

1 hour ago, ElizaB said:

I believe a lot changed for them when they stopped touring. The matching jumpers were "necessary" when they did conferences because they wanted to match. I think it also made packing/laundry easier. 

I think it was a mixture of practicality and always standing on the more modest side of whatever other fundies were wearing.

they were still wearing frumpers when other fundies had moved on to long denim and khaki skirts.

Then they moved to long skirts when fundies were wearing knee- and midi- skirts. At that point (early/mid-2010s) the girls were probably at their busiest with conferences, product sales and helping out with the children so it no longer became practical to sew stuff - so long skirts were also the most modest outfit they were able to buy.

Once other fundies were all wearing jeans, they no longer had the ministry so there was no need to pretend any more. 

Steve would never admit to going along with trends but it can’t have escaped him or the rest of the family that all their friends - and I’m not even talking the Duggars, but their closest homeschooling families that that they have known for 20+ years - have all switched to pants as well.

For example, consider the Buckingham family. Jim Buckingham is probably one of Steve’s closest and longest-standing friends and the Buckinghams featured heavily on the MOTH boards and website back in the day. That family was just as strict about long skirts as the Maxwells were - but now all the daughters wear pants, and Lolly (Buckingham) Hale, who is a close friend of Sarah, posted a photo on Insta the other day of herself in an (albeit modest) bikini.

I don’t know what has happened, but seemingly most fundies have simultaneously decided that women can be modest in pants. Maybe the men all got together and decided, who knows?

I do think that for the Maxwells, practicality was a factor. Once you’ve started doing DIY/gardening/physical labour in pants, there’s no way you’re going to convince yourself that it’s just as easy in a skirt, no matter how hard you try. And I think when it comes down to it, I think that Steve values hard work, and being able to do that hard work, slightly more than he does performative modesty.

[hoipolloi]

3 hours ago, Bethy said:

By 2009 they were All About The McCalls 3129

Thank you for this -- I totally laughed out loud after looking up that pattern!

 

47 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

I don’t know what has happened, but seemingly most fundies have simultaneously decided that women can be modest in pants. Maybe the men all got together and decided, who knows?

True. We'll never know for sure because being a fundie Christian means never having to explain, apologize, or otherwise tell your loyal leghumpers followers that you have actually changed you mind because you used the brain the Lord gave you.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I do think fundies are heavily influenced by one another. They can act like they are above the mainstream influences. But they are very much influenced by other fundies they fellowship with. You can see them all choosing the same things one by one. Frumpers seemed to die out amongst all of them around the same time. Now that Josh Harris is no longer a Christian, his book is never mentioned. So many have stopped saying “courtship” and just now say relationship. And pants are no longer as taboo as they used to be. Like I’ve said on another thread, JillRod is the only hold out. She’s pissed the fundies are changing over time. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[gracegrace]

Just looking at Lolly Buckingham Hale’s insta makes me mad again at Steve and how much he restricted his daughters as adults. Lolly is in Hawaii in a bikini top, taking swing dancing lessons with her husband, enjoying having teenaged kids. A year ago, Sarah was thanking her dad for his help in *gasp* buying her first car.

 

 

[SassyPants]

Their lifestyle was all about control. Control for Steve because he is a dictator and control for Teri to help soothe her mind. Their children were just collateral damage. Beyond ChrisTOPHER, none of the others give off either dictator or overly anxious vibes, so I think we might have seen the end of the over the top controlling ways.

I do wonder if Sarah had moved out a decade ago, if she would have found a partner at age 30 vs 40. If so, damn you S AND T!

[NoseyNellie]

I don't buy for a minute that any of the past posts by *the girls* were their own independent thought.  They NEVER had any freedom to create that thought.  I HIGHLY doubt they had the opportunity to actually dress casually to determine they preferred dresses.  I don't believe the girls were unbiasedly offered the opportunity to attend * the worldly college education* before they created a manifesto of WHY that life is not for them.  They had been insulated and isolated from pretty much any influences their whole lives.  Perform in churches with the same lifestyle, beliefs and thoughts, socialize with people who attend the religious programming taught by their father.  No socializing, sports, entertainment that is not father sanctioned.  They were brainwashed to his line of thought and likely fearful of the WHAT IFS... Then slowly, ever so slowly life lines start to open up and they were exposed to more people and were able to realize that Not everything outside of their bubble IS evil.  Their brothers married and that exposed them to the fact that the new sisters came from more progressive backgrounds and were not bursting into flames.  Anna#2 was diagnosed with Cancer and that is proof that any and everyone is vulnerable.. this is not the result of a sin.. and they were forced to rely on the help and care of EDUCATED professionals.... and that was not all that bad...
My speculation is the nursing home was fine with morning services.. it provided a great outlet for the residents at no cost to them.  But the evening service was not happening so they had to go somewhere else which is why they went to a brick and mortar.  The pandemic forced them out of the  nursing home building and into the other church... Possibly at one time that was closed and it was easy to stream services online in addition to whatever Steve pushed.... But by then the girls were already connected and that has helped them slowly help them develop their newer identities! 

[CTRLZero]

8 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

Steve would never admit to going along with trends but it can’t have escaped him or the rest of the family that all their friends

I’ve been thinking about this lately, trends I mean.  My former neighbors were fundies. They had the frumpers, Gothard-approved hair, and a new baby every other year.  They socialized with like-minded folks who had lots of children, with the daughters being assigned as a “little mommy” to a younger sibling.

Fast forward to today.  This family is still church going, but short hair, jeans, and none of the children have more than a couple children of their own.  The women all have jobs outside the home.  I don’t know how I’d feel once I realized that I was born into chaos because large families were a fad dictated by someone wanting to make money off books and workshops.

I’m probably not articulating this well, but I’m happy the next generation is starting to figure it out.