Josh and Anna 53: 151 Month Sentence

[Jacked]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:58 AM, SisterCupcake said:

I have thoughts, but don't know for sure.

My speculation would be that A) he saw the sinking IBLP ship for what it is, B. he wanted to make sure his family was taken care of with a steady income, and C) he was tired of waiting to become a big shot and decided to strike out on his own. But none of that is confirmed, it's just in my own head.

 

Thank you.

I never foresaw Waller leaving IBLP but under those parameters it fits his modus operandi.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Jacked

[SassyPants]

Does Waller have the background/experiences/field training , education and advanced degree generally required to be a legitimate pastor?

[Jackie3]

13 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

When will Mac or Michale get their own phones or un monitored access to the internet? Certainly Mac won’t until she is married off. 

They find a way to get online. Read the stories of ex-fundies who left their cult. 

[fundiefan]

1 minute ago, Jackie3 said:

They find a way to get online. Read the stories of ex-fundies who left their cult. 

Yup. Remember PP's boys who were forbidden from using the Internet / had no access? Yet...they were steeped in porn, violence & music. 

[Sops2]

The explanation at David Waller's induction service had a rather strange wording-

""- Brother Mike from the vacancy committee revealed-

"Brother David came to us on some interesting circumstances and initially resisted.

And then God  started working on his heart. And then  he went to the top of list for 4 of the committee members, "

Interesting circumstances and initial resistance? ie he walked before he was pushed

[livinginthelight]

4 hours ago, Freejin said:

Can someone explain the psychology of knowing you are guilty of a crime and sitting through a trial and sentencing pleading innocent? What is the criminology? What is the psychology?  Have there been studies about what happens to a person’s mental state when they lie to the world? And themselves?

A lot depends on whether the person has a conscience, or any type of moral compass. Those with complete absence of a moral compass might see it as merely another puzzle to be solved, as in "how do I make these events work in my best possible favor?" Others with a sliver of conscience might tell themselves the prosecutors are inflating what they did, and it wasn't that bad, or framing it as a war between themselves and "the system." Maybe  they rationalize "the system" owes them for other perceived injuries.

Or maybe their lawyers insist on the innocent plea while they want to plead guilty. I'm sure this happens sometimes, and those people are probably more tormented.

I don't know of any studies but I have to think that anyone who could like like Josh with a straight face is at least partially in the psychopath/sociopath category.

Edited May 27, 2022 by livinginthelight

[fundiefan]

 

7 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Does Waller have the background/experiences/field training , education and advanced degree generally required to be a legitimate pastor?

He "graduated" from ATI. That's about the extent of his education. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by fundiefan

[Jackie3]

10 hours ago, Pibblesmiles said:

For those who weighed in on the subject of "not-like-other-girls," would you consider Elizabeth Bennet a Regency example of this trope?  Elizabeth climbed trees as a child, and still enjoys long rambles by herself.  She walked 3 miles to Nether field, despite knowing her skirts would end up 6 inches deep in mud and she wouldn't be fit to be seen by polite company.  She prefers gowns with minimal lace and simple lines to the more frilly, "girly" designs preferred by others.  Her father allowed her access to his library, which she took advantage of to read books out of the ordinary to those normally read by young ladies.  She is accused (by Caroline Bingley, so take that for what it's worth) of having  "an abominable sort of conceited independence -- a most country-town indifference to decorum." And, she most definitely does not simper at, nor try to attract, the eminently eligible Fitzwilliam Darcy.

I don't recall anything in the book about Elizabeth climbing trees as a child, or a preference for simple clothing. Her clothes are probably simpler than her wealthy friends (as Mr. Collins observes) but I assumed that was a matter of cost. Does the book discuss her choice of clothing?

As for Caroline Bingley, she was just looking for a chance to diss her.

12 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I think if she asks, “what kind of bad things” she can be told more, until gradually she gets answers.  Initially, however, she doesn’t need the whole story.  The kids need the truth, but it should be given to them according to what they ask and what they can understand.

 

She can hear if from Anna, or she can hear it from her peers.

Of course you want to shield a 12-year old from terrible things. I do too. But the truth is, it's worse to hear it from peers or the internet or a tabloid. Kids overhear things, read things, talk to others. It's a nasty conundrum, but it's better Mac hear it from her mother and then have a chance to ask questions. It opens a line of communication, so the subject can come up again and again, and allow her to heal.

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

Glad he got what he got, obviously was hoping for more - even though no sentence is too big for what he did- but from my humble non-lawyer perspective, I thought the judge was thorough and balanced, and (my speculation) he realized long ago that Josh is a POS. I stand by my thought that, if anything, he saw right through the "character letters" from Anna, Meech & co. 

Josh, or JB, never received any real consequence for anything they did. It must be a tough wake up call to see that you can't just sweep this under the rug anymore, and that you can't just pray it away. The real world does not work like that, and the bubble they all have been living in has burst at last - hopefully for good. 

I won't be sad if I don't ever see their smug faces ever again. 

💜

I think the character letters were for the most part incredibly underwhelming. The only ones that seemed genuinely supportive in a substantial way were the ones from the neighbors. Weird diarrhea lady and I assume it’s her conspiracy loving husband ? Those two letters were very detailed.
Anna’s was what you would expect from a wife who is hanging on for dear life, The one from his mom was one from a mom- and not that passionate a plea. The rest were all very formulated “ tell something about yourself and how long you’ve known Josh, describe his good qualities, give specific examples of him doing something good, describe why he should get a short sentence. Sign here” And most of the examples were pretty sad “ he built a deck once” “ he helped pay for a transmission” The only one who even implied innocence was the whack job Q-annon neighbor. 

[nausicaa]

10 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

A lot depends on whether the person has a conscience, or any type of moral compass. Those with complete absence of a moral compass might see it as merely another puzzle to be solved, as in "how do I make these events work in my best possible favor?" Others might tell themselves the prosecutors are inflating what they did, and it wasn't that bad...

I've discovered a large number of adults have a stunning capacity for denial as a coping mechanism. If you get into the habit of lying to yourself and immediately searching for a way to blame others, I think it becomes easier each time. Likewise, personal responsibility is a muscle you have to work. 

[Jackie3]

42 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

Or maybe their lawyers insist on the innocent plea while they want to plead guilty. I'm sure this happens sometimes, and those people are probably more tormented.

 

Lawyers can't force someone to plea one way or another. If they try that, get another lawyer!

[Freejin]

47 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I think the character letters were for the most part incredibly underwhelming. The only ones that seemed genuinely supportive in a substantial way were the ones from the neighbors. Weird diarrhea lady and I assume it’s her conspiracy loving husband ? Those two letters were very detailed.
Anna’s was what you would expect from a wife who is hanging on for dear life, The one from his mom was one from a mom- and not that passionate a plea. The rest were all very formulated “ tell something about yourself and how long you’ve known Josh, describe his good qualities, give specific examples of him doing something good, describe why he should get a short sentence. Sign here” And most of the examples were pretty sad “ he built a deck once” “ he helped pay for a transmission” The only one who even implied innocence was the whack job Q-annon neighbor. 

The main thing that must have been noted in all of these letters is that they didn’t address the crimes themselves. Further denial of wrongdoing. I imagine the letters actually backfired and had the reverse effect - the judge probably noted that no one indicated the Josh would need serious counseling in order not to reoffend (I actually don’t think this would have worked, for the record, but the fact that the letters didn’t address it didn’t help Josh’s case). 

Also - which siblings do you think will visit Josh? Will Michelle go?

[Rosie]

59 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I think the character letters were for the most part incredibly underwhelming. The only ones that seemed genuinely supportive in a substantial way were the ones from the neighbors. Weird diarrhea lady and I assume it’s her conspiracy loving husband ? Those two letters were very detailed.
Anna’s was what you would expect from a wife who is hanging on for dear life, The one from his mom was one from a mom- and not that passionate a plea. The rest were all very formulated “ tell something about yourself and how long you’ve known Josh, describe his good qualities, give specific examples of him doing something good, describe why he should get a short sentence. Sign here” And most of the examples were pretty sad “ he built a deck once” “ he helped pay for a transmission” The only one who even implied innocence was the whack job Q-annon neighbor. 

What struck me most about the letters was the lack of any content about Josh acknowledging what he had done, taking accountability, being remorseful, speaking of doing better, apologizing to Anna, etc.  There was absolutely zero acknowledgement of any response by him to being convicted of the crime.

Tangentially related topic:  Is it possible that Anna is pregnant?  I saw a video of her leaving the courthouse and walking to her car, and I swear she has a bump.

[fundiewatch]

She’d be at least six months along because Josh has been locked up since December. With her eighth baby, I think she’d be showing more. 
 

I think Josh can only have ten people on his visitation list. I’d bet he has little contact with his siblings. 

[Giraffe]

5 minutes ago, Rosie said:

Tangentially related topic:  Is it possible that Anna is pregnant?  I saw a video of her leaving the courthouse and walking to her car, and I swear she has a bump.

There was one picture where I thought the same thing. When I went and watched video the picture came from it looks less like “omg, is she pregnant???” and more like “she gave birth to her seventh child during a stressful time and hopefully it’s just her body after giving birth to her seventh.”

[Mama Mia]

6 minutes ago, Rosie said:

What struck me most about the letters was the lack of any content about Josh acknowledging what he had done, taking accountability, being remorseful, speaking of doing better, apologizing to Anna, etc.  There was absolutely zero acknowledgement of any response by him to being convicted of the crime.

Tangentially related topic:  Is it possible that Anna is pregnant?  I saw a video of her leaving the courthouse and walking to her car, and I swear she has a bump.

I suppose it’s possible, but very unlikely. That’s just how she carries her weight. I know we’ve talked about it before, because she’s always getting early speculation long before any pregnancy. I carry my weight the same way, and whether skinny, in the middle, or plump - always got asked if I was pregnant. Plus she’d have to be 6+ months, and she’d definitely have more than a pooch.

[Cam]

Quote

3 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

 but from my humble non-lawyer perspective, I thought the judge was thorough and balanced, and (my speculation) he realized long ago that Josh is a POS. I stand by my thought that, if anything, he saw right through the "character letters" from Anna, Meech & co. 

 

 

Not only did he see through the character letters, but when the judge referenced the letters during the sentencing, he brilliantly used it as a teaching point by quoting Hall of Fame coach John Wooden, saying “The true test of a man’s character is what he does when no one is watching.”

That’s the quote these fundies should have hanging in their homes. 

Judge Brooks was an excellent role model for anyone in the Duggar circle to observe. He represented something completely different from their fundie church-devised reporting  of wrongdoing, investigations and punishment. 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Cam

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, livinginthelight said:

Or maybe their lawyers insist on the innocent plea while they want to plead guilty. I'm sure this happens sometimes, and those people are probably more tormented.

We'll never know for sure but I suspect that Josh's legal team at least suggested a guilty plea if not recommended it at first because attorneys have a duty to provide what they think is their best advice. I also suspect that Jim-Bob & Josh vehemently opposed any mention of a guilty plea. 

I can't imagine being on that legal team and seeing what the feds had against Josh and the expert witnesses lined up to testify on the evidence. Then again, they're apparently going to appeal the sentence which will probably not succeed or change anything.

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

We'll never know for sure but I suspect that Josh's legal team at least suggested a guilty plea if not recommended it at first because attorneys have a duty to provide what they think is their best advice. I also suspect that Jim-Bob & Josh vehemently opposed any mention of a guilty plea. 

I can't imagine being on that legal team and seeing what the feds had against Josh and the expert witnesses lined up to testify on the evidence. Then again, they're apparently going to appeal the sentence which will probably not succeed or change anything.

This truly could be seen as taking the case for a paycheck. It’s not like the attorneys can say they didn’t have a choice(Public Defender). These folks chose to accept this job. Wonder if they had any prior knowledge of this family and how they operate? 
 

 

[Alisamer]

22 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

What is problematic about not like other girls?

 

9 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Almost all heroines are “not like other girls” or else they wouldn’t be interesting enough to be heroines.  Austen makes fun of this in Northanger Abbey where she makes a point of how “ordinary” Catherine is.

The problem with the “not like other girls” trope of romance is that it becomes repetitive and predictable.  

I know this has been gone over and explained better than I could, but the simplest way I know to explain it is that "not like OTHER girls" is sexist in the same way "not like OTHER black people" is racist. It assumes that the person being talked about is a singular exception and all the others of that gender/race are all the same, in a bad way. Plus it's boring and bad writing. 

19 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I don’t think the younger siblings and the older M’s need to know the full details.   I think, “Josh was caught with some very naughty pornography which is against the law,” is enough for Josh’s kids and the other minors.  They do not need to hear about the rape and torture of children before they are at least 16–preferably 18.

To be sure, the same children ought to be warned about “funny stuff” that adults may want to do with children.  They need to be told that no one (not an uncle or aunt, not a parent or grandparent, not an older sibling) may touch them or ask to be touched in any private part of the body.  They need to be told what to do, whom to tell, etc.  They need to know that when a man feels inappropriate desire it is the responsibility of the man, not the object of his desire.  And so on.

Unfortunately, I would guess that all the kids are getting is, “Josh/Daddy made a mistake and the government made a big deal out of it because they hate Christians, so now he is going to do God’s work in prison until things are straightened out.”

 

16 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

The best way to empower those children is to give them information. Otherwise, they will learn the ugly details from other people (or the internet) and have to process it all alone. 

As soon as Mackynzie or Michael have access to the internet, they are going to google their father's name. Of course they will. They will learn he wasn't convicted of "very naughty pornography" but something horrific and evil. They will know their mother did n't tell the full truth, and they will be alone with their feelings.

The Ms, and the younger Duggars, are going to overhear things. Or they'll be told things by their peers. It's impossible to keep them away from other kids their own age (they go to conferences, etc) and those peers will tell them some pretty terrible things. They'll know their mother wasn't honest with them, and that will make it all much worse. 

Hiding things from children never goes well. Those kids have suffered enough, and deserve honesty. "Naughty pornography" can mean so many things, and kids will have no idea what it means. So they'll fill in the blanks with their imagination, and that will cause a lot of worry and anxiety.  Especially with the crazy Duggar "nike" rules. They think all pornography is "naughty." I wouldn't want an M to think they are going to jail because they looked at a racy picture.

I'm not saying the five-year old needs to hear the details of the videos, but they do need an abbreviated version of the absolute truth, that can be built upon later ("Daddy has a terrible problem that makes him want to watch movies about bad people doing mean things.")

The older Ms, and the young Duggars, deserve to know it all, because otherwise they are being left alone to deal with the reality by themselves. And they will find out about it. They'll find out from peers, or a sneaky internet search, or from the tabloids at the market. They'll be alone with their shock and their fear, and have no one to talk to. 

 

I think they should be given more info than "he watched a movie that wasn't legal" or whatever.

I don't think the children need to hear the filthy gory (literally) horrible details. (I do think the adults in the family should absolutely know exactly what sort of things he was looking at, because they have or likely WILL have children who will need protecting. And because the details will likely shock any of them still thinking he's just being wronged.)

But I think the children should be told that the "bad stuff" he was watching involved children being hurt and touched inappropriately, and should know what inappropriate touching IS. They need to know that, in an age appropriate way. And continue to have that taught and explained as they age, to make sure they continue to understand what is OK and what is not.

Kids can't report inappropriate behavior if they don't understand it's inappropriate. And even kids who KNOW what is OK and what is not can have things happen to them that in the moment seem OK or accidental, and only are apparent as molestation long afterward. Hopefully there's nothing else to know, but the Duggar children of all people definitely need to be taught about that sort of thing.

Madison is not going to be allowed alone with her father when he gets out. She's going to need to understand why. It's likely Mack will have a kid of her own by the time Josh gets out of prison, she needs to know what he did because she will need to protect her own children. 

[Freejin]

Meanwhile, where is JB and Michelle’s statement??? They absolutely owe the public a statement. 

[Antimony]

34 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

We'll never know for sure but I suspect that Josh's legal team at least suggested a guilty plea if not recommended it at first because attorneys have a duty to provide what they think is their best advice. I also suspect that Jim-Bob & Josh vehemently opposed any mention of a guilty plea. 

I can't imagine being on that legal team and seeing what the feds had against Josh and the expert witnesses lined up to testify on the evidence. Then again, they're apparently going to appeal the sentence which will probably not succeed or change anything.

Almost certainly suggested it. There's a real likely client control issue here. 

There's also the fact that even though Jim Bob is paying, they don't work for him, so if there is a client control it must Josh. Legally, ethically, lawyerily (a word, now), Jim Bob only gets to tell Gelfand what to do in that Josh will do what Jim Bob tells him to do, or won't. 

On another note, and I'm sure we'll talk about more about this over the next 12.5 yrs, I'm curious about what Josh's mail experience will be like. We all know that I am penpals with some number of incarcerated people. For the record, I don't penpal with people with sex offenses because that's just my personal line. Some activists do, some activists don't look up crimes because they have feelings about how that might bias them and their activism, etc. It's a toss-up. 

But this isn't really who I think Josh will get mail from. Some, maybe, but there's a real shortage of people who do this only because of prison activism reasons. I will be shocked if Josh puts up a profile on WriteAPrisoner. I'm suspecting perhaps he'll get a lot from Prison Ministry people, and I wonder if he'll get like....weird Duggar-leg-humper fan mail. I would not be surprised if he got correspondence requests from less than ethical online journalists and on the other hand, I wonder if he'll get any hate mail. When he is put into the BOP, his mailing address in the prison will become public information (and so will the expected earliest release dates and latest release dates, by the way) and I would be shocked if that didn't lead to some weird mail situations. 

7 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I know this has been gone over and explained better than I could, but the simplest way I know to explain it is that "not like OTHER girls" is sexist in the same way "not like OTHER black people" is racist. It assumes that the person being talked about is a singular exception and all the others of that gender/race are all the same, in a bad way. Plus it's boring and bad writing. 

 

I think they should be given more info than "he watched a movie that wasn't legal" or whatever.

[snip for space]

You've got my agreement with this argument that I've so rudely snipped re: "bad movies". However, I wonder if this all a pipe dream because the Duggars, Anna included, have never been really like...fans of bodily autonomy or telling their children proper words for things so that they can describe them, etc. So um, in conclusion, it's a fucking mess. 

[Dandruff]

17 minutes ago, Freejin said:

Meanwhile, where is JB and Michelle’s statement??? They absolutely owe the public a statement. 

I imagine they'll be considering any wording very carefully.

[Freejin]

3 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I imagine they'll be considering any wording very carefully.

Doesn’t matter. They’ll screw it up. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I'm a little shocked by how many people thought Anna might be pregnant. 

She gave birth to Madyson in October. All of Anna's kids are at least 18 months apart and most of them are more than 18 months apart. Josh has been in lock-up since November/December so she would have to be at least 6 months pregnant, which means she probably would have said so by now.  Most humans I know tend to pack extra weight in the stomach and she's had 7 babies!

It just feels like this is unnecessary scrutiny of her body and some irrational speculation. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell