(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[zee_four]

@SassyPants For your comment in the last post, for language specifically the cutoff is about age 7. Its a big deal in Deaf education because if a child isn't exposed to a full natural language by age 7 the pathways cutoff. So the old system of forcing oral language on Deaf children which is something they can't be exposed to naturally because they can't hear it and that's how spoken language is learned, is why the average Deaf reading level was like 2nd grade and still isn't much higher because if Deaf adults who grew up that way. If a Deaf child learns ASL/Auslan/BSL which they can the way a hearing g child learns English then they can pick up second languages. 

Its also much harder to pick up a second or third language after age 7 for the same reasons of brain plasticity in the language areas becoming more concrete.

 

And great comments @Antimonyabout how not everything called "addiction" is full blown chemical dependency like alcohol, opiates, meth, etc. The DSM V did away with "addiction" and calls it substance use disorder or SUD but that's more about people first language to help overcome stigma. 

[Jackie3]

On 4/7/2022 at 12:59 AM, SorenaJ said:

Maybe he is in denial about his guilt, and as long as he is not sentenced, it is not "real". Once he has been sentenced, it'll all probably be more real to him. 

Lawyers don't file motions for reasons like that, and judges don't grant delays for that reason either.

[Jackie3]

 

12 hours ago, zee_four said:

Even if she goss to the jail which night not be allowed because of COVID, she is not seeing him face.

Hard to believe, but  at least some federal prisons have allowed in-person visits during the pandemic (with masks, physical distancing, etc).

"As a modification of the BOP's Phase Nine Action Plan, and in accordance with specific guidance designed to mitigate risks, social visits are being reinstated, where possible to maintain the safety of our staff, inmates, visitors, and communities." November 2020

https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/covid19_status.jsp

Here's a covid questionaire visitors had to fill out as of last August:

https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/docs/staff_contractor_visitor_screening.pdf

I dont' know much about prisons, so feel free to tell me if I'm wrong.

On 4/4/2022 at 11:11 AM, Antimony said:

All answers are on a spectrum, but Josh's answer to 1 and 2 put this in the "not addiction" field for me for me. You could imagine scoring this on like a 4x10 grid or Likert Variant. 

I could care less if they call Josh's behavior an addiction or not. It doesn't bother me if they say he had a "porn addiction" as long as he is locked away where he cannot hurt anyone.  Who cares if a tiny (fundie) portion of the population thinks he "couldn't help it" because he was an "addict"? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, I can't see inside his head (thankfully). However, the justice system has decided he is culpable, and that's enough. 

In our society, if you watch CSA you are culpable, no matter whether you claim addiction "status" or not. Similarly, a heroin addict who steals a catalytic converter goes to jail, addict or not.

 

[Antimony]

14 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

I could care less if they call Josh's behavior an addiction or not. It doesn't bother me if they say he had a "porn addiction" as long as he is locked away where he cannot hurt anyone.  Who cares if a tiny (fundie) portion of the population thinks he "couldn't help it" because he was an "addict"? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, I can't see inside his head (thankfully). However, the justice system has decided he is culpable, and that's enough. 

In our society, if you watch CSA you are culpable, no matter whether you claim addiction "status" or not. Similarly, a heroin addict who steals a catalytic converter goes to jail, addict or not.

 

Numerous, non-Fundie people here have posted about porn addiction and it's clearly a narrative that has a hold beyond small Fundie communities. In fact, it's so mainstream that the wife of a Law and Order producer with a CSAM conviction has given multiple interviews on perfectly mainstream outlets with this narrative. 

Also, a heroin user who steals a catalytic converter goes to prison for theft not for heroin addiction so I have no idea what your point is, but for the record, imprisoning people solely for drug use is antithetical to recovery and perhaps one of the worst features of our carceral system (but it's hard to choose, between the literal slave labor or psychological torture or medical neglect or...)

Edited April 8, 2022 by Antimony

[EmCatlyn]

12 hours ago, Dandruff said:

Wonder what he was researching.

😄

Apparently he was hired as a spokesman (gendered term intentional).  He was supposed to go out and bring money to support the projects of the FRC.  

There was an AMA on Reddit a while back from someone who had worked for the FRC around the same time who said he was kind of clueless, came up with obvious suggestions as though they were revelations, and that he had boasted that he would bring in donations/participation from a number of contacts that never materialized. (I don’t remember the details, but I got the impression the FRC wasn’t too thrilled with him even before they heard of the molestations.)

[anjulibai]

8 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

😄

Apparently he was hired as a spokesman (gendered term intentional).  He was supposed to go out and bring money to support the projects of the FRC.  

There was an AMA on Reddit a while back from someone who had worked for the FRC around the same time who said he was kind of clueless, came up with obvious suggestions as though they were revelations, and that he had boasted that he would bring in donations/participation from a number of contacts that never materialized. (I don’t remember the details, but I got the impression the FRC wasn’t too thrilled with him even before they heard of the molestations.)

If you, or anyone else, has a link to that, please post. That would be an interesting read. 

[TuringMachine]

On 4/7/2022 at 12:59 PM, patsymae said:

Isn't this the jail where they did the experimental Covid injections on prisoners that Kristin Nicole Whatever thought was such a great idea?

Yeah looks like it:

https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article257436912.html

The jail doctor gave ivermectin to inmates without consent. According to KNY it was a great injustice that he was punished instead of given a pat on the back because the people he experimented on didn't die. 

[BadMurphy]

KNY sucks.

[EmCatlyn]

56 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

If you, or anyone else, has a link to that, please post. That would be an interesting read. 

I think this is it.Reddit AMA —Dodged a Bullet

[zee_four]

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

 

Hard to believe, but  at least some federal prisons have allowed in-person visits during the pandemic (with masks, physical distancing, etc).

"As a modification of the BOP's Phase Nine Action Plan, and in accordance with specific guidance designed to mitigate risks, social visits are being reinstated, where possible to maintain the safety of our staff, inmates, visitors, and communities." November 2020

https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/covid19_status.jsp

Here's a covid questionaire visitors had to fill out as of last August:

https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/docs/staff_contractor_visitor_screening.pdf

I dont' know much about prisons, so feel free to tell me if I'm wrong.

I could care less if they call Josh's behavior an addiction or not. It doesn't bother me if they say he had a "porn addiction" as long as he is locked away where he cannot hurt anyone.  Who cares if a tiny (fundie) portion of the population thinks he "couldn't help it" because he was an "addict"? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, I can't see inside his head (thankfully). However, the justice system has decided he is culpable, and that's enough. 

In our society, if you watch CSA you are culpable, no matter whether you claim addiction "status" or not. Similarly, a heroin addict who steals a catalytic converter goes to jail, addict or not.

 

Well he is in jail and there are no face to face visits. Those haven't been around in most jails since pre COVID.

And "addiction" isnt a status you claim or don't claim. Its a medical disease, I dont just claim I'm diabetic because I feel like that. Yes in most places (but not nearly enough sadly) they're realizing for non violent drug crimes for first time offenders who have substance use disorder, it's a mitigating circumstance which is looked at in sentencing and even in plea deals in some places. Most areas with large populations have special drug courts for this purpose alone because they've finally caught up to the idea that just putting someone in the system and doing nothing for their addiction, they're only going to become a lifelong "criminal" especially for survival based and drug based crimes to fuel their addiction. For people who have no empathy, well it saves them tax dollars too, incarceration is super expensive compared to drug court and probation and what have you. 

[anjulibai]

29 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I think this is it.Reddit AMA —Dodged a Bullet

Thanks!

[Father Son Holy Goat]

That AMA was hard to read. I’m so glad the woman didn’t become another Josh Duggar victim.

[Jackie3]

On 4/8/2022 at 2:34 PM, zee_four said:

Well he is in jail and there are no face to face visits. Those haven't been around in most jails since pre COVID.

 

Are you sure? The link I provided upthread seems to indicate in-person visits are OK in federal prisons. And Arkansas definitely allows in-person visits. In fact, children and nonfamily members are also allowed, as of January, when the Covid numbers hit a certain point.

https://doc.arkansas.gov/correction/visitation-updates/

 

11 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

That AMA was hard to read. I’m so glad the woman didn’t become another Josh Duggar victim.

I know! I'm so glad for her.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Jackie3

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

Are you sure? The link I provided upthread seems to indicate in-person visits are OK in federal prisons. And Arkansas definitely allows in-person visits. In fact, children and nonfamily members are also allowed, as of January, when the Covid numbers hit a certain point.

https://doc.arkansas.gov/correction/visitation-updates/

 

Josh is in jail, specifically the Washington County Detention Center.  According to their website, there are no in-person visits.  Anna can go to the jail, but she'd still have to visit via video.

https://www.washingtoncountyar.gov/government/departments-f-z/sheriff/detention-information/schedule-detainee-visitation

Pretty sure he'll be allowed in-person visitation once he gets to prison, but no matter where he lands, it's likely going to be a long way from Tontitown.

[SPHASH]

4 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Josh is in jail, specifically the Washington County Detention Center.  According to their website, there are no in-person visits.  Anna can go to the jail, but she'd still have to visit via video.

https://www.washingtoncountyar.gov/government/departments-f-z/sheriff/detention-information/schedule-detainee-visitation

but no matter where he lands, it's likely going to be a long way from Tontitown.

Which is why I want him sentenced soon.  The sooner he is farther away the sooner Anna can reassess her life.

 

[Snowless]

On 4/4/2022 at 1:38 PM, EmCatlyn said:

That being said, whatever is going on with Josh seems to be more than just a belief that he is special and can get away with things.  He seems driven to go deeper into forbidden areas. Maybe it is the absence of empathy plus no personal moral compass plus the weird message of his religious community that all sins are equal.  In any case, I suspect that he is driven by some compulsion no lesser than the compulsion people who identify as “porn addicts” would feel.  What makes him different (definitely worse) is that his compulsion extends to viewing brutal sexual acts against children.

Isn’t that basically a sociopath?  I’m no expert on mental disorders, but the lack of a moral compass and empathy seem like they’d describe a sociopath.  And on top of that, his religious community eschews psychiatric treatment and thus enables the damaging behavior.  Just my two cents.

[EmCatlyn]

45 minutes ago, Snowless said:

Isn’t that basically a sociopath?  I’m no expert on mental disorders, but the lack of a moral compass and empathy seem like they’d describe a sociopath.  And on top of that, his religious community eschews psychiatric treatment and thus enables the damaging behavior.  Just my two cents.

I don’t know.  Most of us only know what he has done, not why he has done it or how he felt about his actions.  It may seem he has no moral compass when in fact he does— it may just be a little skewed (“watching CSAM is not a big deal because it is just watching”) or it could be totally missing.  Who knows?

I have never seen signs of empathy, but that just makes him a narcissist, imho,

Whatever he is, I think he is a very sick individual, and his parents are to blame.

[AussieKrissy]

2 hours ago, SPHASH said:

Which is why I want him sentenced soon.  The sooner he is farther away the sooner Anna can reassess her life.

 

I dunno. I think once she gets the opportunity for in person visits she is going to live there. Those kids are never going to see their mother she is always going to be in transit back or forth to see their father. I think that is going to give her something to cling too not let go. 

[Guanabana]

14 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

I dunno. I think once she gets the opportunity for in person visits she is going to live there. Those kids are never going to see their mother she is always going to be in transit back or forth to see their father. I think that is going to give her something to cling too not let go. 

I think they have times and limits on visits. The felon is no longer at the Rebers. Once he is in prison it will be even more difficult for Anna to visit, if he is shipped out of state. Or he can pull a Bill Cosby and not add Anna to the visitor list (JK).

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, Guanabana said:

I think they have times and limits on visits. The felon is no longer at the Rebers. Once he is in prison it will be even more difficult for Anna to visit, if he is shipped out of state. Or he can pull a Bill Cosby and not add Anna to the visitor list (JK).

Even if she is only allowed to see him face-to-face once a week, I can imagine Anna getting herself there once a week if it was within 8 hours or so driving distance.

In between visits, I am sure she will continue regular phone calls and video chats if permitted.  Her life is probably going to revolve around giving comfort to Josh.  I feel so sorry for those children.

 

[Antimony]

Because this is a Federal crime, we're a little bit lucky Speculation Bus wise because the BOP makes their rules way more clear than any state incarceration facility ever will. Now, they did change visiting guidelines for COVID but assuming that the BOP is operating as normal right now, in 2016 they did not limit a number of visits on a monthly basis. (For COVID, it's limited to 2/month). However, some later records (~2017) indicate 8 visits/month, so like many things, it's kind of whim-based on the part of the prison, whoever is writing the directives, demand for visits, whatever. 

By law, Josh is entitled to four hours of visits per month but this is usually, as far as I can tell, granted plus way more. That could change if chooses protective custody because that makes visits like...logistically problematic. Technically, they're still entitled to those hours but visiting rooms are not generally private, so you can just imagine the logistical issues. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

No doubt the family pilots will be drafted into flying Anna (and probably a child or two at a time) to visit Josh in prison on a regular basis.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:47 PM, AussieKrissy said:

I dunno. I think once she gets the opportunity for in person visits she is going to live there. Those kids are never going to see their mother she is always going to be in transit back or forth to see their father. I think that is going to give her something to cling too not let go. 

This is part of why I hope they place him somewhere far away, forcing Anna to either move across the country to follow him this getting a break from Duggar authority or forcing Anna to remain in Arkansas getting a break from Josh.

[EmCatlyn]

13 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

No doubt the family pilots will be drafted into flying Anna (and probably a child or two at a time) to visit Josh in prison on a regular basis.

That could get really expensive.  Wonder if JB would endorse frequent visits if it hits his budget.

Maybe he will try to get TLC to do a show about Anna visiting Josh?

?  😉😄😄😉 ?

[Jackie3]

On 4/10/2022 at 11:13 AM, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Pretty sure he'll be allowed in-person visitation once he gets to prison, but no matter where he lands, it's likely going to be a long way from Tontitown.

OK, then my reading of the federal guidelines is correct, he'll be allowed inperson visits. Some other posters thought he would not be allowed this.