(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 51: An Unappealing Appeal

[apandaaries]

On 4/10/2022 at 5:21 PM, Snowless said:

Isn’t that basically a sociopath?  I’m no expert on mental disorders, but the lack of a moral compass and empathy seem like they’d describe a sociopath.  And on top of that, his religious community eschews psychiatric treatment and thus enables the damaging behavior.  Just my two cents.

Allow me to introduce one of my favorite articles, “When Your Child is a Psychopath.” It’s on the Atlantic and a long read, so I’ll attempt to post, but if my link is wonky, pls google if curious (I’ve run out of free views this month).  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/when-your-child-is-a-psychopath/524502/

The psychologists who work with people who show sociopathic/psychopathic traits under the age of 18 most often label them “callous and unemotional.” Obviously, labeling a young child can lead to severe consequences in their adult years, so they tend to identify them by those two traits.

Josh: anyone else remember that video still of Jill holding a drink for him on her palm, while he fucked around in his computer area? This of course was in the new home, after he’d molested her and been “rehabilitated.” Or when he joked about brothers and sisters dating one another, since they were from Arkansas? Again, after he’d violated four of his own sisters. Interesting moments to reflect upon. 

Then there are Anna moments, like when she was birthing and he was...napping?!? Or any other moment he pretended to be bonded to his family but portrayed his aloofness instead?

IDK if he’ll learn anything from the experience, but I’m very glad he’ll be locked up for hopefully a significant amount of time. 
I don’t trust that dude as far as I could throw him, and my upper body strength is awful. 🤷‍♀️

Edited April 12, 2022 by apandaaries
Details, links, etc.

[AussieKrissy]

37 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

No doubt the family pilots will be drafted into flying Anna (and probably a child or two at a time) to visit Josh in prison on a regular basis.

If the laws are like anything like Australia convicted child sex offenders are not allowed visitors under 18 

They would have to give pretty good evidence to have this overturned or have an exemption made

[Audrey2]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

That could get really expensive.  Wonder if JB would endorse frequent visits if it hits his budget.

Maybe he will try to get TLC to do a show about Anna visiting Josh?

?  😉😄😄😉 ?

I said it before and I'll say it again...Love During Lockup/ Life After Lockup

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

51 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

If the laws are like anything like Australia convicted child sex offenders are not allowed visitors under 18 

They would have to give pretty good evidence to have this overturned or have an exemption made

I can't find anything that automatically excludes inmates like Josh from visiting with their own children while in Federal prison.  

[Jackie3]

1 hour ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I can't find anything that automatically excludes inmates like Josh from visiting with their own children while in Federal prison.  

Although the rest of the world justifiably hates Josh Duggar, his kids probably miss him and want to see him. Kids are like that. This  decision must be made based on what is best for the kids. If he poses no danger to the kids in a prison waiting room, and they want to see him, the prison will probably allow it

[marmalade]

2 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I can't find anything that automatically excludes inmates like Josh from visiting with their own children while in Federal prison.  

I'm trying to recall what the laws were when the Guidices served time in the federal pen. I want to say that there was an age limit of 12 and up, but I could be mistaken.

[Cam]

If Josh ends up being incarcerated at a facility close to home, a lot of FreeJingers’s gonna be disappointed! 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Cam

[Jana814]

I think Anna is going to want to visit Josh as much as she can. 

[ophelia]

It is going to be interesting to see who else is going to visit Josh. His parents? Somehow I don't see Michelle in a prison visitation room.
Maybe Justin and his new mum Hilary Spivey?

The Pecan Thief might visit him as some form of ministry.

[nokidsmom]

6 hours ago, Jana814 said:

I think Anna is going to want to visit Josh as much as she can. 

Agreed, and I don't see distance as an issue for her.

 

[theotherelise]

7 hours ago, Cam said:

If Josh ends up being incarcerated at a facility close to home, a lot of FreeJingers’s gonna be disappointed! 

I don't think there are any facilities less than four hours away. 

[nokidsmom]

25 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

I don't think there are any facilities less than four hours away. 

I think there was some discussion earlier about where the closest ones were located and IIRC they would involve a considerable trip.   So it's not going to be a quick local visit. 

ETA:  I think the main thing is that Josh is away from his kids since it's obvious that the kids' other parent doesn't seem to get that he's a risk to them.   And that holds true whether he's locked up 9 miles away or 900.

Edited April 12, 2022 by nokidsmom
Addition

[EmCatlyn]

9 hours ago, Cam said:

If Josh ends up being incarcerated at a facility close to home, a lot of FreeJingers’s gonna be disappointed! 

I think it was said there is only one federal facility at the right level in Arkansas.   Wherever he ends up, Anna will do her best to “be there for him” through visits, phone calls, etc.  

[Dandruff]

If Anna's goals are (1) to have Josh back with her and the kids asap and (2) to remain in their fundie circle, then what could be expected to happen when a daughter is ready to court?  Imagine Josh grilling a potential beau with hundreds of questions to test the guy's integrity, purity, good intentions, and ability to support a family.  What guy (and his family) would be willing to put up with that nonsense?  I suspect many fundie families now view Josh as kryptonite and might only be willing to consider allowing marriage to an M-kid if he has been out of the picture for a good long while.  It isn't fair to the M's, but none of this is.

 

[SassyPants]

5 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

If Anna's goals are (1) to have Josh back with her and the kids asap and (2) to remain in their fundie circle, then what could be expected to happen when a daughter is ready to court?  Imagine Josh grilling a potential beau with hundreds of questions to test the guy's integrity, purity, good intentions, and ability to support a family.  What guy (and his family) would be willing to put up with that nonsense?  I suspect many fundie families now view Josh as kryptonite and might only be willing to consider allowing marriage to an M-kid if he has been out of the picture for a good long while.  It isn't fair to the M's, but none of this is.

 

Best thing he can do is to wean away from the family while in prison, and eventually file for divorce. It would be the best case scenario for all concerned. I doubt he was ever much of an engaged father or wonderful husband-

[HereComesTreble]

I wonder (just wonder—I have no idea about this…), would CPS get involved if Anna did bring the kids to visit Josh, a convicted sex offender, in jail?  It seems fundamentally wrong to expose kids to a person like him—even if he is their father.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

35 minutes ago, HereComesTreble said:

I wonder (just wonder—I have no idea about this…), would CPS get involved if Anna did bring the kids to visit Josh, a convicted sex offender, in jail?  It seems fundamentally wrong to expose kids to a person like him—even if he is their father.

It's not Anna's call whether the kids are allowed to visit. That's up to the facility, so no, I can't imagine CPS would get involved because kids are visiting their father in a prison visiting room.

[Smee]

Putting my "addiction researcher"* hat on for a moment to say that how we define addiction is cultural, context-specific, and differs from country to country and medical system to medical system. If your definition limits it to chemical dependence (i.e. withdrawal symptoms that are felt in the body and may pose a danger to someone's health) then cocaine isn't addictive. Many drugs also cause withdrawal symptoms/chemical dependency and shouldn't be stopped abruptly for that reason (e.g. most antidepressants), but people taking those medications rarely crave them or have a compulsion to seek them out, or desire to escalate in their use. Some people drink alcohol in moderation for decades and never develop an addiction, for many others it's life-ruining. It's complicated, and what a person is addicted to is only one factor.

One of the most interesting things for me is how the rise of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous changed Western cultural perceptions of addiction despite having pretty much no basis in any science or medicine. We have "shoplifters anonymous" groups but psychologists would be more inclined to liken kleptomania to a presentation of OCD than to a substance abuse disorder like alcoholism. Someone mentioned upthread problem gambling as a non-substance-related addiction, and in my country there are free government-funded crisis lines and counselling support for those with gambling problems. The lines between chemical dependency, dopamine withdrawal, "normal cravings", compulsions and poor self-control are all much blurrier than we'd like to think. The argument about whether sex addiction and porn addiction are "real" is a philosophical one, not one that can be scientifically answered (at least, not currently) because it depends largely on the semantics of how we define addiction. 

That said, I agree with whoever it was that said fundie Christians of Josh's ilk like to blame any sexual activity outside their strict repressive boundaries on "sex addiction" and will call it porn addiction if the person is watching and masturbating like twice a month. And that regardless of whether Josh felt a compulsion to keep seeking out worse and worse content, he's legally and morally culpable for what he downloaded and the impact that supply & demand chain has. 

 

*to clarify, I'm not a medical researcher, I'm a PhD student in English looking at representations of addiction in literature, and in the course of my research have had to look at different definitions of and understandings of addiction at different times in history and across various cultures. In particular, I'm looking at the relationship between addiction and agency, and how people understand "free will" as something that can be taken from them by a non-sentient substance.

[imokit]

The issue for Anna is money.  If she's as controlled by JB as we think she is, then her actions are going to depend on what he's willing to fund.  Josh has been a money sink, big lawyer money, loosing the show, then the 2nd show (which wasn't officially JBs, but JB clearly got money from), loosing lots of endorsements and publicity money, now financially supporting them.

Its one thing for JB to pay lawyer money, its another for him to pay for a separate out of state household and rent/housing costs for Anna and the Ms.  Likewise the costs of flying the plane regularly.

I can't see him being willing to pay that.

Also are visitor logs public record?  Because that may effect who goes.

[Cam]

15 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Best thing he can do is to wean away from the family while in prison, and eventually file for divorce. It would be the best case scenario for all concerned. I doubt he was ever much of an engaged father or wonderful husband-

This will never happen.

 

[SassyPants]

59 minutes ago, Cam said:

This will never happen.

 

IDK, he’s never been incarcerated and truly separated from his parents and their influence. Even in DC he was still part of his family’s show. Perhaps he’ll learn to make his own decisions and formulate his own life plan-

[Alisamer]

22 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

IDK, he’s never been incarcerated and truly separated from his parents and their influence. Even in DC he was still part of his family’s show. Perhaps he’ll learn to make his own decisions and formulate his own life plan-

IMO it could go a million different ways. He might double down, play up the "reformed sinner" thing, stay with Anna and the family and do his best to milk money out of his experiences. He might actually use his prison time to educate and better himself, seek therapy, and come out a better person with a potential career path ahead of him. He might find "worldly" things he enjoys and might decide to dump the whole fundamentalist thing when he gets out, and Anna will either come along or divorce him. He might get sucked into a different religion or cult entirely, converting to Islam and changing his name, or deciding the fringe Mormons have the right idea with the polygamy thing. He might get involved in shady stuff in prison and come out worse than he went in, and embark on a life of crime. He might get a prison penpal, fall in love with them, and run off with them after he's out. He might decide to go into a prison ministry, and drag Anna along with him. All of these assume he even survives prison, which I would expect him to but it's not a guarantee, necessarily. Those places are petri dishes for diseases and there's a risk of violence. 

Most likely, I think, he'll slog along through his sentence, somewhat enjoy not having to deal with the children all the time, and be welcomed back into the fold as a reformed and re-born sinner cleansed by God, whereupon he goes back to doing whatever Jim Bob assigns him to do as a "job" in order for the Duggar cash cow to keep supporting his family. He'll take advantage of Anna's joyful availablity but cringe whenever she manages to get knocked up again. And if he's very careful and very lucky, he won't get caught for any more criminal activity. 

If he's smart (which he's not), he'll look into getting a vasectomy on the down-low.

I don't really expect anything dramatic or interesting. I think he'll serve his sentence in prison then come out and serve his sentence being married to Anna and just keep slogging through life as boringly as he can manage, trying not to get caught being pervy, and hoping that mansion in heaven is worth the crap he's living through on earth.

[fundiewatch]

A big big moving piece to me is women who will write to him in prison. He has enough notoriety that women will, and it will feel forbidden and risky. It may be too much for Josh. 

[Cam]

I’m doubling down on my no way will he divorce opinion. No way will he reform. No self-improvement educating himself. No vasectomy. No going Mormon. If anything, once his sentence is done, he will have more ways to con his family into believing prison somehow reformed him. But that’s just me. 

[Alisamer]

24 minutes ago, Cam said:

I’m doubling down on my no way will he divorce opinion. No way will he reform. No self-improvement educating himself. No vasectomy. No going Mormon. If anything, once his sentence is done, he will have more ways to con his family into believing prison somehow reformed him. But that’s just me. 

I do think that's the most likely scenario.

But still, going to prison is going to give him wide-open horizons, ironically. 

He likely won't change, at all. But he could. He has options.