(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 46: Counting On - 16 Weeks Until Sentencing

[BensAllergies]

Hasn’t there been evidence that Jill still has a relationship with her mom but not her dad? She’s said that she hasn’t been to the TTH for years, but I think Michelle has come over for kids’ birthdays.

I think that exiling daughters (and subsequently, their kids) may have a greater negative impact on Michelle than the fact her oldest son is in prison. I think she would be willing to keep the peace with any adult child who supports Josh being in jail, but JB won’t allow that so instead the family will be divided.

[Ilovebrownies]

I have a question about the letter for all you experts.  The letter that was found in a book....why would someone (from what we know now, maybe Bobeye) write a letter about the accusations then hide the letter in a book?  Is this the book that was stolen by a fan?

[nokidsmom]

19 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

They are just going to miss the charade of having a father.  Any man capable of doing what he did isn't capable of the love and empathy that it takes to be any kind of a father.  Sure, in a perfect world they'd have a father worth missing but they don't.

This.  While I feel bad for the M'kids, I think they are honestly better off without Josh around, obviously they need to be safe from him considering what he did but I don't think they ever had a truly loving Dad.   Sure, they will miss him and will feel that way for long time, perhaps always, while he's gone.   But I get the feeling the kids love Dad a lot more than he loves them.  

One thing I said after seeing the body language analysis video is that I don't think Josh treated Anna that well in private. And I don't think he was Wonder Dad in private either.   In spite of the upset around Joshley's incarceration, I suspect life in the warehouse is going to be a lot calmer without Josh's toxic presence but they won't necessarily see that.  Maybe when he's about to return then maybe they might realize it though there might be fewer M'kids at home if Josh does significant time.  Mackenzie is what, 12?  Six years she will be an adult, that's not that far off and easily she could be gone as well some of the others by the time Joshley is let out.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

9 hours ago, forgetmenow said:

John MacArthur's church and seminary has a record for minimizing abuse and mistreating victims. 

A GCC newsletter referred to a convicted pedophile who taught music and Bible at the school on church property (conviction held up on appeal) as a "missionary" to the prison in which he was doing his time.  They then shunned the guy's wife for then seeking "worldly" counseling for their kids.

  Reveal hidden contents

Wartburg Watch also ran the horrific story of a rape victim who was horribly treated and ultimately punished for her rape at TMU.

All that to say, MacArthur's church and seminary seem like a more than toxic place for the Vuolos.

ETA: Apologies if this has been covered extensively in the Jinger threads (I'm only generally a Duggar reader when there's Big Breaking News), but I think MacArthur and GCC need to have spotlight on their abusive behavior as often as possible.

Perhaps the minimization of abuse is currently working for Jinger. With my own abuse it helped me to believe it was my fault because it gave me the illusion of control; it was easier than seeing the world as a randomly violent place and my parents as evil. It kept me somewhat held together until it didn’t. 
 

Denial and minimizing might be where she is right now and if so, that’s okay.

[Jana814]

I have to say Josh being convicted has been the highlight of my week!  

[lizzybee]

I was in the bath last night doing my thinking and I zeroed in on Michelle and wondered what it would take for her to release these horrible beliefs and seek forgiveness from the children she's harmed. I can relate (not in a sympathetic way) to her more as someone who chose fundamentalism for myself than I can for someone like Anna who has been brainwashed and indoctrinated since birth. 

With Anna, I've said to myself, imagine you (me) woke up one day and fundamentalism was correct. The whole world was doing it and you needed to get with the program, but your family was different and you lived more secular than the vast majority of the world. What would it take to snap you out of your secular mind and force you to say ok everything I know and everyone I love is wrong, I need to be a fundamentalist and abandon this small sect of people who don't agree? When I reverse it that way, I think it would take a helluva lot more than I would have initially given credit. Even when horrific things happen, I continue to operate within the parameters set before me by those that raised me. 

Now someone like Michelle, who did not grow up in this world, I suspect has voice in her mind that she doesn't like, that reminds her often that this is all weird and wrong. No doubt she's become an expert in silencing it since she's been at this thirty years. The voice probably gets louder in times like she must be going through now. But unlike me, she's gained a lot of power and influence under this set of beliefs. It would cost her a lot to release them now. If she is medicating? I would say it would be to drown out that dissenting voice that prevents her from keeping sweet and baby talking her way through all the guilt and discomfort she must be feeling somewhere in her breast as things get worse and the cracks in the foundation get bigger. I don't accept the voice isn't there, I know she knows I know you know she knows the world isn't what she's told her children and herself and countless others. She's clinging to the fantasy too, but not because she doesn't know anything else. I don't think she'll ever leave though. She's been at this game a long, long time. Too long to admit you've thrown your one beautiful life away and harmed your children and taken so much from them to further the narrative you prefer. So yeah she's probably just roboting around and becoming less and less emotionally accessible beyond a surface level by the day. 

[kachuu]

17 minutes ago, lizzybee said:

Now someone like Michelle, who did not grow up in this world, I suspect has voice in her mind that she doesn't like, that reminds her often that this is all weird and wrong. No doubt she's become an expert in silencing it since she's been at this thirty years. The voice probably gets louder in times like she must be going through now. But unlike me, she's gained a lot of power and influence under this set of beliefs. It would cost her a lot to release them now. If she is medicating? I would say it would be to drown out that dissenting voice that prevents her from keeping sweet and baby talking her way through all the guilt and discomfort she must be feeling somewhere in her breast as things get worse and the cracks in the foundation get bigger. I don't accept the voice isn't there, I know she knows I know you know she knows the world isn't what she's told her children and herself and countless others. She's clinging to the fantasy too, but not because she doesn't know anything else. I don't think she'll ever leave though. She's been at this game a long, long time. Too long to admit you've thrown your one beautiful life away and harmed your children and taken so much from them to further the narrative you prefer. So yeah she's probably just roboting around and becoming less and less emotionally accessible beyond a surface level by the day. 

I think you're giving M too much credit. Both her & JB have made a life of ignoring what they don't want to believe. This is just something else to to add to the list that they can pretend isn't happening. And I say this with no sympathy for this woman. How on earth could you ignore the pain & abuse your 4 daughters went through at the hands of your oldest. If you can spin that in a way that allows you to keep going, this is just one more thing to turn her head from. 

 

I don't want to discount the pain of the victims of those in the CP. But for the Duggars, they are simply pictures of something that is uncomfortable & not the real life person behind them. There isn't a personal connection to the victims of what jerk face downloaded. Unlike her daughters that she, as a parent, should have done so much more for.

[Satan'sFortress]

12 hours ago, TXGirlInAMaterialWorld said:

About JB's toupee- I wonder if he just started wearing it within the last year. 

Wait--Jim Bob Duggar wears a toupee?!?!?!?!

 

 

 

 

(Can we please make this the new "JD is a pilot?!?")

[Jackie3]

I think there will be at least tell-all book, probably more. It's inevitable. They raised 19 kids and denied them a college education and any real skills. They pushed them to have as many kids as possible. Many of them became accustomed to a high standard of living. JB's money will get stingier with the money, while the expenses just increase with each new baby.

19 adult men and women, all needing money with limited ways to earn it. Some more compliant to their parents than others. Some with only a vague attachments to their parents. Of course they'll be books. Publishers may already be offering some of them advances.

If JB had given them a fair share of the TV earnings, they may have been content, even grateful, for that. But since he didn't, they are going to really need money. What would you do if you were 29, with four kids, a wife, and lots of bills, and a publisher offered you $10,000? Or $100,000?

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jackie3

[lizzybee]

33 minutes ago, kachuu said:

I think you're giving M too much credit. Both her & JB have made a life of ignoring what they don't want to believe. This is just something else to to add to the list that they can pretend isn't happening. And I say this with no sympathy for this woman. How on earth could you ignore the pain & abuse your 4 daughters went through at the hands of your oldest. If you can spin that in a way that allows you to keep going, this is just one more thing to turn her head from. 

 

I don't want to discount the pain of the victims of those in the CP. But for the Duggars, they are simply pictures of something that is uncomfortable & not the real life person behind them. There isn't a personal connection to the victims of what jerk face downloaded. Unlike her daughters that she, as a parent, should have done so much more for.

No, I'm giving her zero credit. None. Rather I'm saying she knows she's wrong and is persisting anyway despite her real life evidence to the contrary. I'm saying she deserves no sympathy or consideration of her feelings because this was again and again active choices she made when she had all the information. 

[Beermeet]

11 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Body language vid looking at JB this time.

 

That was good.  2 thoughts....

1. Please redo and focus on Michelle.  That open mouth staring at JB with Kelly, what is that?  

2. It's interesting to watch someone who doesn't follow the family like we do try and process them.  

[neuroticcat]

45 minutes ago, lizzybee said:

No, I'm giving her zero credit. None. Rather I'm saying she knows she's wrong and is persisting anyway despite her real life evidence to the contrary. I'm saying she deserves no sympathy or consideration of her feelings because this was again and again active choices she made when she had all the information. 

I think the level of her denial and whether she could turn away probably depends on why she went for the cult in the first place, too. I do think trauma of some form usually causes adult converts to turn to IBLP - either they are abusers (typically the men) drawn to the power it offers or they are attracted by the promise that their kids will be godly and protected from the evil world, or it feels “right” to have parents be that controlling. I think that level of control is mainly attractive if you really believe the world is that dangerous and destructive.

But with Josh’s situation, it’s revealed over and over that their system doesn’t work. It didn’t protect their girls. It didn’t keep Josh from ungodliness, in fact, whatever their flattening of sin, by their standards where you can’t even look at a tight blouse, what he did looking at CSAM was so abhorrent even to worldly people. I agree with you that she has a pre-cult part of her somewhere inside, which for some forty odd years she has deemed her ungodly and unconverted teen self. The question is, if she could get at that teen outside-the-cult perspective, would it be any healthier? Would it tell her “it would be so much worse without the cult?” Personally, I think it would take an unbelievable amount of therapy for her to even get there, and then it would be crushing, because it would be a recognition that all that they thought they were doing “right” was abusive. I am reading Heather Heath’s book “Lovingly Abused” about IBLP right now, and I think it’s such an apt title. These people have no true definition what love or abuse is, and they have confused the two.

I can sort of hope that it might lead to a lightening of some of the principles for the youngest girls, but I doubt it. Much, much, much more likely to triple down into denial.

 

[Marshmallow World]

17 hours ago, MomJeans said:

Ah, I see you know them as well?   My self-righteous ex is a graduate.  

I do, indeed. I'm very, very familiar with John MacArthur and his schools. I'm related to several graduates of the seminary myself through marriage and through blood. I'm glad your ex is an ex!

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, Ilovebrownies said:

I have a question about the letter for all you experts.  The letter that was found in a book....why would someone (from what we know now, maybe Bobeye) write a letter about the accusations then hide the letter in a book?  Is this the book that was stolen by a fan?

The latest ANA on Reddit explained that the letter was more of a journal or reflection page to organize thoughts. There were three people involved in reporting to CPS: Alice, who is a relative to the Holts, who wrote a public post and then contacted Oprah who contacted CPS around the time of the show. Someone else (not a Duggar per the AMA) wrote the letter/journal and tucked it in a homeschool book which was later loaned out to a third person with letter accidentally inside. Third person read it and contacted CPS. Letter writer is considering going public with their story.

The two CPS reports coincidentally happened around the same time. The Duggars told many at the church it was a coordinated attack to bring them down and injure their ministry.

Edited December 11, 2021 by neuroticcat
Clarity

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Ilovebrownies said:

I have a question about the letter for all you experts.  The letter that was found in a book....why would someone (from what we know now, maybe Bobeye) write a letter about the accusations then hide the letter in a book?  Is this the book that was stolen by a fan?

It appears that the letter was placed in a book that was loaned out with homeschooling materials.  I am no expert, but I think the letter was put there intentionally.

[FiveAcres]

2 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

It appears that the letter was placed in a book that was loaned out with homeschooling materials.  I am no expert, but I think the letter was put there intentionally.

A way to salve someone's conscience? "If God doesn't approve of the way this is being handled, someone will find this letter and publish it?" 

I am all about processing trauma using writing, but the few times I wrote anything particularly incendiary, I destroyed the paper after writing. 

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, lizzybee said:

I was in the bath last night doing my thinking and I zeroed in on Michelle and wondered what it would take for her to release these horrible beliefs and seek forgiveness from the children she's harmed. I can relate (not in a sympathetic way) to her more as someone who chose fundamentalism for myself than I can for someone like Anna who has been brainwashed and indoctrinated since birth. 

With Anna, I've said to myself, imagine you (me) woke up one day and fundamentalism was correct. The whole world was doing it and you needed to get with the program, but your family was different and you lived more secular than the vast majority of the world. What would it take to snap you out of your secular mind and force you to say ok everything I know and everyone I love is wrong, I need to be a fundamentalist and abandon this small sect of people who don't agree? When I reverse it that way, I think it would take a helluva lot more than I would have initially given credit. Even when horrific things happen, I continue to operate within the parameters set before me by those that raised me. 

Now someone like Michelle, who did not grow up in this world, I suspect has voice in her mind that she doesn't like, that reminds her often that this is all weird and wrong. No doubt she's become an expert in silencing it since she's been at this thirty years. The voice probably gets louder in times like she must be going through now. But unlike me, she's gained a lot of power and influence under this set of beliefs. It would cost her a lot to release them now. If she is medicating? I would say it would be to drown out that dissenting voice that prevents her from keeping sweet and baby talking her way through all the guilt and discomfort she must be feeling somewhere in her breast as things get worse and the cracks in the foundation get bigger. I don't accept the voice isn't there, I know she knows I know you know she knows the world isn't what she's told her children and herself and countless others. She's clinging to the fantasy too, but not because she doesn't know anything else. I don't think she'll ever leave though. She's been at this game a long, long time. Too long to admit you've thrown your one beautiful life away and harmed your children and taken so much from them to further the narrative you prefer. So yeah she's probably just roboting around and becoming less and less emotionally accessible beyond a surface level by the day. 

If you’re willing to share, why were you drawn to fundamentalism? I, too, dipped my toes into it as a young mother and likely would have dived all in if circumstances had been right,  I wasn’t raised fundamentalist but did grow up in an emotionally and verbally abusive household that was very controlling. My mother had grown up in a disordered and chaotic neglectful and abusive home so she was engulfing and narcissistic despite her best intentions. 

Anyway, I am still sorting out in therapy why I was drawn to fundamentalist parenting (and why I still sometimes find fundamentalism emotionally attractive even though I find it intellectually abhorrent), because I had no idea what healthy nurture or affection looked like. A plan to control my own children felt “right” to me, especially if it was what an authority like God said to do.  I also had ingrained perfectionism so a check-the-box guaranteed to succeed plan was appealing, And, since I have broken attachment stuff, some of the more robotic elements seemed normal. I’m embarrassed to say it, but I still can’t watch a clip of Duggarland without feeling a magnetic pull, no matter how much I know and have seen and understand it to be evil. I’m especially drawn to it when my external circumstances get chaotic or painful.

The “voice” that kept me from going all in was my own fragmented childhood that couldn’t bring myself to blindly spank my children or dominate them. I think if I had pushed past that early on, though, I might have been all in, because it would have been easier to defend my actions than face up to them. 
 

I don’t think the parents in IBLPs actions are excusable, but I do have some kind of intellectual empathy alongside my enmity for them..because as almost was one, if that makes sense.

14 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

A way to salve someone's conscience? "If God doesn't approve of the way this is being handled, someone will find this letter and publish it?" 

I am all about processing trauma using writing, but the few times I wrote anything particularly incendiary, I destroyed the paper after writing. 

Maybe. I wonder if the letter was kind of a prayer journal sort of thing - like a letter to God? It’s interesting to me that Duggars and co. thought of this all as an attack from Satan. I wonder if anyone from church thought the “coincidences” were a sign from God to wake up and do something about it.

Edited December 11, 2021 by neuroticcat
Clarifying empathy

[EyesOpen]

I can’t find the video of the body language guy now… but watching those scenes of jimbob… well… all of them… but of course the golf humping and then the interview about Josh’s first forays in to sexual abuse… omg so uncomfortable to watch… literally they should have been completely taken off the air - he made so many excuses for Josh… they literally did nothing but cover it up and not get their daughters help.  and he said it on national tv…

[princessjo1988]

I’m so relieved that he was found guilty. A long way to go, but a good start. 
 

A few notes on the John MacArthur stuff - I actually grew up attending an Australian branch of the church, run by Seminary graduates. I can verify that the way abuse was handled is quite troubling. In my situation, when my mother finally decided to divorce my father ( we were no longer attending or members at this point), they were still in contact with my father, who was in prison serving time for hundreds of charges They supported and agreed with him that my mother should not divorce him. It was so bad my brother and I went to the church and and explained to ministers the full situation, particularly given the severity of the charges and heavily insinuated that it would not look good for them if their current course became public. Background: Australia was conducting a massive investigation at the time into churches/church run organisations and child abuse/covering up child abuse. It worked, thankfully.

I feel for Anna. In my case, it wasn’t until my father was in prison and my mother had some distance, that she finally decided to divorce him. It wouldn’t surprise me if Anna did the same. It doesn’t change the reality, though, that both Anna and my mother should have changes sooner, but when the realisation happens, it going to cause a lot of pain, which is punishment enough. It’s easy to sit in our comfy chairs and comment, but ultimately this is a total mind mindf-ck of a situation, worse if you are uneducated on abusive relationships or a little naive. She is both of those things.

As a child of a person like Josh, I have a lot of empathy for the “M’s”. I just hope someone with some sanity is in their corner. I had an extraordinary aunt, who chose me - and absolutely saved my life in the process. Even just having a window into a life that was different to my own, was all that I needed to survive and thrive. 

As for JB and Michelle - such a complete and utter failure, still, to deal with this whole situation well or in a healthy way. A while ago I saw a theory that they don’t deal with the Josh situation well because of the attachment that they have with him. Because he is a firstborn and they got to spend the most one on one time with him, he now (unfortunately) has the strongest (and most unhealthy) bond to them. Personally, it’s a viewpoint I agree with - if it was one of the howlers, I don’t think that the response would be the same. I also think there will be some natural, balancing consequences to even this all out. I would be very surprised if JB won his precious election and their children are never going to have the same relationship with them after this. It will be like ripples in the pond for years. 15 years on here, and we still have fractured and damaged relationships amongst my own family from the actions of my father and the reactions to those initial actions (or lack of action) from other family members. 
 

Good for Jill, Joy and Jinger - some very powerful statements and also some incredibly courageous actions in the past week. May they find peace and have  more loving, supportive, healthy relationships than what their parents/Josh have shown them. They deserve all the happiness. 

[3KidsAndStopped]

Well that didnt take long...Josh is in solitary confinement due to "safety reasons". Source in spoiler. Article discusses conviction and some details you may prefer not to see (distressing/content names of files found)

****I DO NOT WANT TO CAUSE ANYONE DISTRESS WITH THE LINK AND FURTHER DOWN THE ARTICLE THERE IS GRAPHIC CONTENR CLICK WITH CAUTION*******

Spoiler

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298367/Josh-Duggar-moved-solitary-confinement-safety-reasons-awaits-sentencing.html

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by 3KidsAndStopped
Added caution

[lizzybee]

@neuroticcat Well, that's gonna be a much longer story than anyone wants to hear. My grandparents were foot washing baptists and yelling pastors in a church without air conditioning and outhouses for bathrooms was my introduction to Christianity. When I was in elementary school I went to visit my mother who didn't have custody of me and she took me to her family's weird church. My teenage cousin cornered me with her friend and tried to get me to sign a piece of paper saying I accepted Jesus as my savior and if I didn't I'd go to hell. I felt scared about it and refused to do it and it spurred YEARS of obsessive ideas about satan and hell. I used to lay in bed and feel like I was under attack from satan and would cry and beg Jesus to help me and save me, please come rescue me Jesus. I'd make up songs and sing to Jesus trying to self soothe and calm down. I remember walking through the mall on the checker board flooring and saying to myself if you step on cracks you'll go to hell. I was obsessed. As a teenager I started obsessing again when I went through some trauma with some mean girls at school. I felt like I got saved then and started to go to church by myself because my parents weren't religious. I would go, and not speak to anyone, and then leave without interacting at all. I didn't know what I was doing, but I was trying to feel better, you know? 

Fast forward a few years, I'd just had a miscarriage and I was so traumatized by that loss. Just completely gutted. I found the Duggars on netflix and it was like my years of private obsessing came together for an answer. I could change everything in my whole life and get on a new track! This was the way! My narcisisstic mother had abandoned me at 4 and my father married a woman twenty years younger than himself who psychologically and emotionally abused me all of my formative years. I'd just a couple of years before testified against her in court to keep her from getting full custody of my younger half sister. My mother was on her fourth marriage and my father now twice divorced. I'd gotten married in optimism in spite of my background and was frightened every time we would get in a fight because all I'd known is divorce and I was scared that was going to happen to us. I was simultaneously trying in vain to find a teaching job in the middle of a recession. I took all of this and applied it to the Duggar's world view. God was telling me things. Look at this beautiful, squeaky clean traditional family. God approves of them and has given them so many children because they're doing right. He's not letting me get a job and he's not letting me have a baby right now because he disapproves of my life and wants me to do better. If I could get my life right, God was gonna bless me so well. So I gave up my whole self. I got rid of all the books and movies, I turned off cable, I stopped looking for jobs, and gave up pants. I was all in buddy and hungry to know everything. I found IBLP through digging, ignored all the cautionary tales and watched all the videos desperate for more. Got obsessed with fundier and fundier churches and my husband and I became more and more isolated until our families staged an intervention. By the time they stepped in, I'd found a pastor who had grown up in ATI and started going to church there by design. That was around the time I met Josh and Anna and snapped that picture with them I shared. Our families were actively attempting to get us out at that point. 

Since then I've struggled and gone back and forth and back and forth, seen a therapist. Got obsessed with reformed and puritan theology and struggled against that. I genuinely feel like at times like I've lost my mind. Having my own children undid a lot. I think it helped that I was a regular girl from a regular family with an education and married to a man with an education. Critical thinking and reason eventually won out. We were talking today about how there was definitely a death of a dream there. A fantasy we desperately wanted to be true. Especially me. But it was my kids that saved me, I think. When they came, I was just like "I could never do this to them." I'm not going to tell my beautiful spunky wild child daughter that she can't wear pants and can't have dreams. I don't want her subservient to any man. I want her and my boys to thrive and not struggle like I did with this scary, evil crap.

I just recently got my expired teaching certification reinstated and started searching for virtual teaching jobs so I can stay with my kids. I'm already getting bites. I'm terrified out of my mind to be saying once and for all that I'm leaving this mindset behind and getting my life back, but it's worth it and I'm doing it scared. I wanna be able to say that lizzybee was _____ when she grew up and no longer will I fill that blank with fundamentalist. FreeJinger did a lot of work with the undoing. You guys really did. I'm so thankful for this community. It's so fucking hard though, you guys, to get your mind out of it. Anyone who successfully does it has been through hell and back, that is for sure. 

[karenb4729]

7 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

Well that didnt take long...Josh is in solitary confinement due to "safety reasons". Source in spoiler

  Hide contents

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298367/Josh-Duggar-moved-solitary-confinement-safety-reasons-awaits-sentencing.html

 

I caution anyone reading this article to not read towards the end because it contains some graphic information about one of the videos.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

19 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

Well that didnt take long...Josh is in solitary confinement due to "safety reasons". Source in spoiler. Article discusses conviction and some details you may prefer not to see (distressing/content names of files found)

  Hide contents

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298367/Josh-Duggar-moved-solitary-confinement-safety-reasons-awaits-sentencing.html

 

My sympathy o meter is stuck a zero.

[imokit]

11 minutes ago, karenb4729 said:

I caution anyone reading this article to not read towards the end because it contains some graphic information about one of the videos.

I second this.  I'd gone up till now without details, and even though I stopped as soon as I realised I have images in my head I wish I didn't.

[3KidsAndStopped]

5 minutes ago, imokit said:

I second this.  I'd gone up till now without details, and even though I stopped as soon as I realised I have images in my head I wish I didn't.

I am so sorry, I have added a bigger caution into the post