(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 46: Counting On - 16 Weeks Until Sentencing

[Idlewild]

Jim Bob is becoming almost a parody. ‘Yes that was a nasty business, now VOTE FOR MEEEE’ You can see where Josh learned to be an arrogant POS.

Re that photo of Justin - the more I see it the worse it gets. That isn’t positivity (as if there is any positivity in what came out in that trial). Also Hilary Spivey is behind him, laughing. 

[3KidsAndStopped]

16 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Jim Bob is becoming almost a parody. ‘Yes that was a nasty business, now VOTE FOR MEEEE’ You can see where Josh learned to be an arrogant POS.

Re that photo of Justin - the more I see it the worse it gets. That isn’t positivity (as if there is any positivity in what came out in that trial). Also Hilary Spivey is behind him, laughing. 

I honestly believe that in Fundie Land all they heard was "La La La" music from time of arrest until the verdict was read. There is a complete disconnect from the real world.  

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, ifosterkittens said:

Emily Baker said she thought Josh's lawyers did the best they could with the evidence against him. She said they will absolutely appeal, that is standard, but she doesn't see any issues that could cause the case to be easily overturned. Emily guesses he will receive an 8–12-year sentence. Natalie Lawyer Chick went through the federal guidelines sentencing and said the points will be argued over, but if he gets 35 points (maybe it is called levels) the guideline would be a 14–17-year sentence. Five of the points Natalie thought he could get don't seem like a guarantee to me. If it is 30 points/levels the recommended sentence per the guidelines is 8-10 years (if I read it correctly). Minimum 5 years, 20 years in the maximum. 

I really enjoy watching Emily but she was driving me nuts saying she thinks he'll get around 10 years because 10 years is in the middle.  If the minimum is 5 years and the maximum is 20, then wouldn't the middle be 12.5 years?  Yes, I'm a math nerd.

I hope Josh serves a lot of years, not because I believe he'll become "fixable" over time (I don't), but to protect his children and everyone else's for as long as possible.

Regarding GMM...wasn't she in the car with JB during an old episode where he fake kidnapped some of the Bates kids and nearly scared the fundamentalism out of Kelly?  Does anyone else remember this?  My opinion of GMM was cemented at that point.  It isn't favorable.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Dandruff
Digits matter.

[Casserole]

wasn't sure which sisters' thread to put this in, so posting in this one instead... in the reddit AMA with Clint (testified for the prosecution and is mod verified and 100% who he claims to be and released by his subpoena at the conclusion of trial) he has confirmed that "some" of Jane Doe(s) 1-4 have already reached out to Bobye to hear what really happened to them. How incredibly soul crushing and heart breaking, but also hopefully healing to have someone who can tell them what their parents have denied their whole lives. Fuck JB and Meech. 

 

 

 

 

[ifosterkittens]

2 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I really enjoy watching Emily but she was driving me nuts saying she thinks he'll get around 10 years because 10 years is in the middle.  If the minimum is 5 years and the maximum is 10, then wouldn't the middle be 12.5 years?  Yes, I'm a math nerd.

Good point. I was thinking 10 is double the minimum, and half the maximum. Between Thursday's extra live about Josh, and Friday Night Live I bet she has had enough of explaining the sentencing. Maybe she'll do a short on it so when people ask in the future, she can say refer to the short.

12 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I hope Josh serves a lot of years, not because I believe he'll become "fixable" over time (I don't), but to protect his children and everyone else's for as long as possible.

I think many of us will think Josh's sentence isn't long enough. Ideally Madyson would be at least 18 and legally free to leave before her dad gets out. Josh's crimes are horrible, and I do worry he will just get better at hiding stuff after he is released once some time has passed and people get focused on other things. No one is going to watch him 24/7, and he has proven he is willing to find a work around with the partition. 

Part of me is relieved, and a bit surprised he is being held accountable. Like others I worried he would somehow get off on a technicality. If the case had been dismissed because of some technicality, I think more people (at least in their community) would be willing to believe Josh was wrongly targeted for his religion, politics, etc. There are some who will refuse to believe the truth-- some people still believe Trump actually won the election. Hopefully there are some that are willing to look at the government's process of collecting the evidence, and how they tied it to Josh, and proved beyond a reasonable doubt he received and possessed it, and the CSAM was of females under the age of 12. 

LawTube as Emily calls it has been so enlightening to me on how the legal process works. Fundies certainly wouldn't view Emily's content, and I wish there was someone as knowledgeable and experienced as Emily that they would be willing to listen to. Buzz words like persecution and fake news are easy to say, but the facts were indisputable. 

JB and Michelle lied with their statement about no knowledge of any investigation or raid by Homeland Security in November 2019, and I hope people who admire them remember that. I hope they compare Bobye Holt's testimony to JB and M's interview with Megyn Kelly and see the differences. JB and M are willing to lie to protect their son; they chose to sacrifice their daughters. These are not people anyone should use as the model. 

[Snowless]

10 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

This.  While I feel bad for the M'kids, I think they are honestly better off without Josh around, obviously they need to be safe from him considering what he did but I don't think they ever had a truly loving Dad.   Sure, they will miss him and will feel that way for long time, perhaps always, while he's gone.   But I get the feeling the kids love Dad a lot more than he loves them.

They are going to have to deal with so much knowing that their dad is a monster and a predator who is going to be serving considerable prison time (even if he doesn’t get the full 20 years on each count, which I personally think he absolutely deserves the full sentence on both counts) and won’t be a constant presence in their lives.  These kids deserved a loving, present father who cared for their well-being and that of others (including children).  They did not get such a father.  I think the oldest ones will probably feel very conflicted about how to feel about him.  Their image of him has been irreparably shattered.

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

6 hours ago, imokit said:

"As a father, I am heartbroken over the entire situation regarding my son, all who have been affected by it in any way, and those who have been harmed through CSAM"

That includes him.  He's heartbroken over himself who's been affected by it.  He's heartbroken first over himself, then his family and only then over the children in those videos!

Jim Blob is only heartbroken that it came out, that he wasn’t able to swipe it under the rug and he couldn’t fool the judge. 
He couldn’t care less about his son watching CSAM or the CSAM itself.

2 hours ago, Idlewild said:

That isn’t positivity 

None of the Duggar smiles indicate positivity. They are literally trained that they must always smile. 
I like covering the lower parts of their face to see their eyes and how they really feel.

[Freejin]

1 hour ago, ifosterkittens said:

Good point. I was thinking 10 is double the minimum, and half the maximum. Between Thursday's extra live about Josh, and Friday Night Live I bet she has had enough of explaining the sentencing. Maybe she'll do a short on it so when people ask in the future, she can say refer to the short.

I think many of us will think Josh's sentence isn't long enough. Ideally Madyson would be at least 18 and legally free to leave before her dad gets out. Josh's crimes are horrible, and I do worry he will just get better at hiding stuff after he is released once some time has passed and people get focused on other things. No one is going to watch him 24/7, and he has proven he is willing to find a work around with the partition. 

Part of me is relieved, and a bit surprised he is being held accountable. Like others I worried he would somehow get off on a technicality. If the case had been dismissed because of some technicality, I think more people (at least in their community) would be willing to believe Josh was wrongly targeted for his religion, politics, etc. There are some who will refuse to believe the truth-- some people still believe Trump actually won the election. Hopefully there are some that are willing to look at the government's process of collecting the evidence, and how they tied it to Josh, and proved beyond a reasonable doubt he received and possessed it, and the CSAM was of females under the age of 12. 

LawTube as Emily calls it has been so enlightening to me on how the legal process works. Fundies certainly wouldn't view Emily's content, and I wish there was someone as knowledgeable and experienced as Emily that they would be willing to listen to. Buzz words like persecution and fake news are easy to say, but the facts were indisputable. 

JB and Michelle lied with their statement about no knowledge of any investigation or raid by Homeland Security in November 2019, and I hope people who admire them remember that. I hope they compare Bobye Holt's testimony to JB and M's interview with Megyn Kelly and see the differences. JB and M are willing to lie to protect their son; they chose to sacrifice their daughters. These are not people anyone should use as the model. 

All these comments about how wealth and fame don’t put you above the law - will any of that factor into sentencing? Will they make an example of him?

[SPHASH]

How often is Anna allowed to visit Pervert while he is in the county jail and the correctional facility.

[Freejin]

1 hour ago, ifosterkittens said:

Good point. I was thinking 10 is double the minimum, and half the maximum. Between Thursday's extra live about Josh, and Friday Night Live I bet she has had enough of explaining the sentencing. Maybe she'll do a short on it so when people ask in the future, she can say refer to the short.

I think many of us will think Josh's sentence isn't long enough. Ideally Madyson would be at least 18 and legally free to leave before her dad gets out. Josh's crimes are horrible, and I do worry he will just get better at hiding stuff after he is released once some time has passed and people get focused on other things. No one is going to watch him 24/7, and he has proven he is willing to find a work around with the partition. 

Part of me is relieved, and a bit surprised he is being held accountable. Like others I worried he would somehow get off on a technicality. If the case had been dismissed because of some technicality, I think more people (at least in their community) would be willing to believe Josh was wrongly targeted for his religion, politics, etc. There are some who will refuse to believe the truth-- some people still believe Trump actually won the election. Hopefully there are some that are willing to look at the government's process of collecting the evidence, and how they tied it to Josh, and proved beyond a reasonable doubt he received and possessed it, and the CSAM was of females under the age of 12. 

LawTube as Emily calls it has been so enlightening to me on how the legal process works. Fundies certainly wouldn't view Emily's content, and I wish there was someone as knowledgeable and experienced as Emily that they would be willing to listen to. Buzz words like persecution and fake news are easy to say, but the facts were indisputable. 

JB and Michelle lied with their statement about no knowledge of any investigation or raid by Homeland Security in November 2019, and I hope people who admire them remember that. I hope they compare Bobye Holt's testimony to JB and M's interview with Megyn Kelly and see the differences. JB and M are willing to lie to protect their son; they chose to sacrifice their daughters. These are not people anyone should use as the model. 

Yes - can we make a bigger deal of how they lied in regards to this investigation?? How can we get more news outlets to discuss??

1 hour ago, Snowless said:

They are going to have to deal with so much knowing that their dad is a monster and a predator who is going to be serving considerable prison time (even if he doesn’t get the full 20 years on each count, which I personally think he absolutely deserves the full sentence on both counts) and won’t be a constant presence in their lives.  These kids deserved a loving, present father who cared for their well-being and that of others (including children).  They did not get such a father.  I think the oldest ones will probably feel very conflicted about how to feel about him.  Their image of him has been irreparably shattered.

What do you think they are being told about why he is going away??

[Not that josh's mom]

1 minute ago, SPHASH said:

How often is Anna allowed to visit Pervert while he is in the county jail and the correctional facility.

I believe visitors are allowed once per week at our county jail, but less often at a federal facility. And that might be different in different states and even within the state. Not sure about children visiting.

[Sabine]

I would simply assume some of the M-kids to be acting out. Poor kids. Seriously poor poor kids. 

I also somehow pity Jana - she is the ultimate fall guy for the family - the first female sacrifice to their god, the first to mummy her siblings, the eternal pious Jana, the enforcer.  I hope that this gives her the courage from now on to say no to permanent unpaid babysitting work for the married adults of the family. 

[freealljs]

So if the visitation is few and far between in federal prison, Josh and Anna may grow apart while Josh is locked up.  I really hope that Josh will divorce Anna, but I don't think that Josh will ever let Anna go. Anna is his crutch in that she'll always be by his side when he screws up.  I really hope that Anna does the right thing by those kids, especially the girls. How would she feel if one of the M'girls married someone as messed up as their father?  She needs to lead by example.

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

1 minute ago, Sabine said:

I would simply assume some of the M-kids to be acting out. Poor kids. Seriously poor poor kids. 

I don’t even think they were purposely acting out. I believe they were simply playing outside and wandering off. All these kids are feral.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, Not that josh's mom said:

I believe visitors are allowed once per week at our county jail, but less often at a federal facility. And that might be different in different states and even within the state. Not sure about children visiting.

County 2 adults and 2 children.  No idea about federal

[Dandruff]

13 minutes ago, freealljs said:

So if the visitation is few and far between in federal prison, Josh and Anna may grow apart while Josh is locked up.

I wouldn't be surprised if indirect communication was enabled through some family-connected prison minister.

[marmalade]

41 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

County 2 adults and 2 children.  No idea about federal

I remember when the Giudices were in Club Fed (don't judge! 😁) that children had to be either minimum 12 or 14 to visit. 

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

2 hours ago, Snowless said:

They are going to have to deal with so much knowing that their dad is a monster and a predator

I was a really serious little kid. If I had been an M, (once I understood what really happened to Dad) I would have been constantly worrying and questioning if any of the "bad" parts of Dad were in me. Endless existential angst. 

[marmalade]

This video is an excellent retrospective of Boob's dick moves. The Megyn Kelly interview is referenced at the end. The analysts are not fans. The snark is delicious. 😀

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by marmalade

[ifosterkittens]

29 minutes ago, Freejin said:

All these comments about how wealth and fame don’t put you above the law - will any of that factor into sentencing? Will they make an example of him?

No, I do not think the judge will depart from the presumptive sentence determined by the probation officer. I can see the judge making some strong statements acknowledging this case has gotten more attention than most CSAM cases because of the defendant's fame, and to let it serve as a warning, and a deterrent to others considering such things. 

I don't think the judge will make an example of Josh with sentencing because it is his first criminal conviction. Even if he had been charged, tried, and found guilty as a juvenile it would not count as a previous conviction. Emily Baker also stressed he didn't have tons and tons of images on the computer- the number of images is part of the sentencing guidelines, and he was on the lower end. I think the two-minute video he had on his computer should bump up his sentence, but I don't make the rules. 

I don't think wealth will be a focus for the judge. Josh had qualified competent attorneys who made sure all the rules were followed, and Josh's rights were not violated. The defense attorneys did the best they could with the overwhelming evidence and statements. 

Scott Reisch's YouTube video titled Josh Duggar GUILTY explains the process before sentencing. It starts at 3:40. Scott explained there will be a pre-sentence investigation that looks at Josh's background- youth, education, family life, issues over the years. A psycho-sexual evaluation which asks uncomfortable questions. If Josh doesn't comply with the evaluation, it will not be good for him at sentencing. The probation officer does an analysis of sentencing guidelines and come up with presumptive sentence. Defense will argue for less time saying no more time than necessary to punish, deter, and rehabilitate Josh. Josh may have restrictions after release with kids under 18- depends on judge and jurisdiction. 

[Mom to Nell]

Here's some information about visits to federal prisons. I've actually been researching this for a family member to visit another family member. Thankfully not for the same reason as Josh!

The inmate gets to decide who will go on the visitor list, but the prison has final approval. By law they are allowed four hours a month, but that can increase. 

Spoiler

BOP: How to visit a federal inmate - Federal Bureau of Prisons

https://www.bop.gov/inmates/visiting.jsp

Visiting Duration. By law, an inmate gets at least four hours of visiting time per month but usually the prison can provide more. However, the Warden can restrict the length of visits or the number of people who can visit at once, to avoid overcrowding in the visiting room.

There is also a strict dress code. Well, not fundie strict, but pretty specific.

Spoiler

Even if Anna tried to drag those poor kids into visit, I doubt the prison would allow it. 

[Snowless]

2 hours ago, Freejin said:

What do you think they are being told about why he is going away??

I kept thinking about that while I was writing my previous post.  And to be honest, I don’t have much of an idea other than, “Daddy did something very bad and has to go away for what could be a very long time.”

But even in fundie world, people (especially kids) can only stay sheltered for so long before the truth eventually comes out.  They’re eventually going to find out the truth of how heinous his actions were, whether they find out from family or some random person on the street or the Internet.  And whenever that happens, those children are going to have to deal with some very heavy psychological baggage.

[Jinder Roles]

1 hour ago, marmalade said:

This video is an excellent retrospective of Boob's dick moves. The Megyn Kelly interview is referenced at the end. The analysts are not fans. The snark is delicious. 😀

 

Clint also confirmed that Jill was called as a witness for the prosecution. He says that the original letter writer was not one of the Duggars. 

 

After watching the video, I've noticed several new things:

1. JB has no eyebrows (LMAOOO)

2. When talking to Megan Kelly, Michelle whispers "over the clothes" while staring intently at JB. They were trying to keep their lie straight. 

3. He never answers direct questions and doesn't seem to be able to notice (or care) about when he makes other people uncomfortable. 

 

Justin from the podcast mentioned on Reddit that Josh had talked about his father's anger. JB himself talked about his anger issues in their first book. I wonder if Josh went through things with JB that the younger siblings didn't experience. 

 

I predict more Duggar fall-out in the years to come. 

 

[MaryOrMartha]

1 hour ago, Jinder Roles said:

Clint also confirmed that Jill was called as a witness for the prosecution. He says that the original letter writer was not one of the Duggars. 

 

After watching the video, I've noticed several new things:

1. JB has no eyebrows (LMAOOO)

2. When talking to Megan Kelly, Michelle whispers "over the clothes" while staring intently at JB. They were trying to keep their lie straight. 

3. He never answers direct questions and doesn't seem to be able to notice (or care) about when he makes other people uncomfortable. 

 

Justin from the podcast mentioned on Reddit that Josh had talked about his father's anger. JB himself talked about his anger issues in their first book. I wonder if Josh went through things with JB that the younger siblings didn't experience. 

 

I predict more Duggar fall-out in the years to come. 

 

Pride comes before the fall, and this is the fall. There is more to come -- it will all unravel.

Should've spent more time building their life on the Rock, and a little less time with false idols such as Gothard and co. They are to blame for the result of their family and they show no remorse.

[SorenaJ]

7 hours ago, Idlewild said:

Re that photo of Justin - the more I see it the worse it gets. That isn’t positivity (as if there is any positivity in what came out in that trial). Also Hilary Spivey is behind him, laughing. 

I really want a Spivey-Rodrigues pairing. #trainwreck