(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 46: Counting On - 16 Weeks Until Sentencing

[Shrubbery]

6 hours ago, Freejin said:

What do you think they are being told about why he is going away??

‚Daddy is going to be in Satan‘s Fortress for a long time.‘

Joke aside, I hope they tell them some child-appropriate version of the truth, because difficult as that may be to process, it will be more difficult for them later on to find out they‘ve been lied to systematically. But that’s probably a vain hope.

[Freejin]

6 hours ago, Snowless said:

I kept thinking about that while I was writing my previous post.  And to be honest, I don’t have much of an idea other than, “Daddy did something very bad and has to go away for what could be a very long time.”

But even in fundie world, people (especially kids) can only stay sheltered for so long before the truth eventually comes out.  They’re eventually going to find out the truth of how heinous his actions were, whether they find out from family or some random person on the street or the Internet.  And whenever that happens, those children are going to have to deal with some very heavy psychological baggage.

But are they being told he did something bad or that he was framed?

[clueliss]

20 minutes ago, Freejin said:

But are they being told he did something bad or that he was framed?

We will likely never know what those children are/were told about their father.  This family is a cult and they have been indoctrinated since birth.  Until someone in the know breaks rank and tells all, we can only guess.  (And anything JB/Meech say publicly is white wash).  

[kachuu]

I bet they tell him dads in trouble, and now he’s bringing Jesus to other people in trouble. 
 

I doubt they use a real word like prison.

 

Typing that made me throw up in my mouth. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by kachuu
Words are hard

[Jana814]

I really would love to know how Anna is planning to explain Josh’s absence to the kids. This will not be an easy conversation. 

[Howl]

2 hours ago, Shrubbery said:

I hope they tell them some child-appropriate version of the truth, because difficult as that may be to process, it will be more difficult for them later on to find out they‘ve been lied to systematically.

Totally agree on all of this.  Not quite the same, but, damn, family secrets.

My grandmother was never told she was adopted, and  she was never quite the same after a cousin accidentally spilled the beans when she was an adult with kids of her own in her late 30s.   The next generation down,  her son (my uncle) married a woman who was already pregnant with another man's child.  My mom noted that this was during WWII, and something something.  When that uncle became ill with cancer in his early 70s, his daughter (my 1st cousin -- again, an adult with children of her own) did a test to see if she could be a bone marrow donor, only to discover that he was not her biological father. She was devastated. 

2 minutes ago, clueliss said:

This family is a cult and they have been indoctrinated since birth.

Any explanation will be spun through the grotesquely distorted IBLP prism. 

5 minutes ago, kachuu said:

I bet they tell him dads in trouble, and now he’s bringing Jesus to other people in trouble. 

TBH, that's probably the best possible explanation for those kids.  After years in a Federal prison, though, who know what Joshly will emerge.  He'll be a very different man, for better or worse. 

Assuming that Josh is in a prison program for pedophiles, is it reasonable to assume he'll get a diagnosis on the pedophile continuum with a prognosis and receive therapy accordingly? 

4 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

I really would love to know how Anna is planning to explain Josh’s absence to the kids. This will not be an easy conversation. 

And in the beginning, those kids, especially the littles, will be asking daily, or multiple times a day, "Where's Daddy?"  Even while at the Reber B & B, they got to visit him.  I doubt they would risk taking the older kids to visit him while he's in jail awaiting sentencing.  Maybe phone calls or Zoom?

[postscript]

46 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

I really would love to know how Anna is planning to explain Josh’s absence to the kids. This will not be an easy conversation. 

I picture it as similar to when I was told my father had left, back in the 70s when separation and divorce wasn’t a common thing, especially not in our religious circles. I was about Mackynzie’s age. We were just told he had left, no reason given, but that he might come back. I assumed it had something to do with religion, as my mother was going through a hyper-religious period and my father had rejected his religious upbringing. We then had to pray every night for him to come back (which was really uncomfortable).

It wasn’t until after my parents divorced when I was 16 that we were told (by my mother, my father still has never said a word) that the reason was because he was in love with another woman (whom he married almost immediately and remains married to). It took me decades to get over the anger at both parents for their lack of honesty and at my father for choosing another woman over his children. 

I hope the Ms are told some age-appropriate version of the truth rather than being put off by religious platitudes. I guaranty the older kids have their own theories. I also am virtually positive they are being told to behave and not cause Anna any more trouble, which is a heavy load to place on a tween. 

[Daisy]

Going back to visits, visitation looks limited but I’m assuming they will be able to write as many letters as they want. Which would be read by corrections staff before being passed on. I could see Anna sending lots of mail and Josh very little.  

[Jana814]

6 minutes ago, Daisy said:

I could see Anna sending lots of mail and Josh very little.  

I can definitely see this happening. I also think Anna will do her best to visit Josh whenever she can. 

[Cam]

The M kids had to visit their father at that couple’s house for months, so what were they told that was all about? Now that he’s been convicted, they won’t be visiting him there. Anna may or may not take some of the older ones to see Josh in prison. But they have to be told something to explain why the visits have changed or stopped. 

You have to wonder if any older M kids are perceptive enough to read between the lines, pick up information in conversations they’re not supposed to hear and put two and two together to grasp some of the reality of the situation. You don’t know what kind of talk between the kids goes on, if they try to inform or help each other understand what’s going on that the adults won’t tell them.

[SassyPants]

With JJD gone and locked away, and over time, the kids might just become Anna’s primary focus which is a good thing. Plus now the numbers will be stalled for a good, long time.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, Cam said:

The M kids had to visit their father at that couple’s house for months, so what were they told that was all about? Now that he’s been convicted, they won’t be visiting him there. Anna may or may not take some of the older ones to see Josh in prison. But they have to be told something to explain why the visits have changed or stopped. 

You have to wonder if any older M kids are perceptive enough to read between the lines, pick up information in conversations they’re not supposed to hear and put two and two together to grasp some of the reality of the situation. You don’t know what kind of talk between the kids goes on, if they try to inform or help each other understand what’s going on that the adults won’t tell them.

I bet they have been overhearing some stuff they can't understand.  And certainly all of them, even the babies, will be very affected by the stress of Anna and the other adults.  The older ones will know this is life changing trouble even if they don't overhear what.

My guess is they they gaslight them with being framed and that he's going to use this Christian persecution as a ministry opportunity.  I hope I'm wrong.

[kachuu]

I think it'll be interesting to see which prison he ends up at. Because they aren't all the same, is that right? So distance will determine how often & if she brings those kids. But I agree, if you take a kid to PRISON, you'll have to explain to them what that is & why Daddy is there....Kids are stupid & do get bits of information. They are going to have questions.

 

I am relieved this puts a hold on their ever growing family. I guess we won't know 100% that 8 isn't already in the oven until a few more months 🤢 

[imokit]

I can't see how they kept it from the Ms if the M's are at the TTH.

The Howler's (even the unmarried ones) clearly know and know details.  Justin was at the trial, the next youngest kid is Jackson.  Those two share a room.  There's no way that's not being discussed in the boys room.  Jackson's fave sibling is/was Hannie.  Hannie who has been seen with a smart phone and likely has internet access.  I can't see her not knowing.  In a family like that kids talk, especially with distracted adults (like JB, M, Jana & Anna will have been).  I can't see that being kept from the girls room, especially if Jana is still sharing with them (and doesn't have a place to discuss it with the married girls).

Mackynzie is older than Josie, I'm struggling to see how if younger Duggar girls know, they'd be able to keep it from Mack, especially if she and her siblings have been seamlessly absorbed into clan Duggar which they probably have been.

The younger ones probably haven't been told something properly, but they will have had to say something.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 minutes ago, imokit said:

Justin was at the trial, the next youngest kid is Jackson.  Those two share a room.

Justin is married to Claire Spivey and lives in Texas.

Edited December 12, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[imokit]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Just is married to Claire Spivey and lives in Texas.

I'm afraid I got confused with Jason.  There was at least one unmarried Duggar boy at the trial.  Jason (and possibly James as well).

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, imokit said:

I'm afraid I got confused with Jason.  There was at least one unmarried Duggar boy at the trial.  Jason (and possibly James as well).

Jason and James both attended parts of it.  

[FiveAcres]

After seeing the recommendation here, I watched the Observe YouTube video (under spoiler). This was my first video by this YouTuber, so I don't know if his disgust for Josh Duggar was unusual because of Duggar's crimes, or fairly typical of his approach. However, since I had never watched any of the Counting series, all of it was new to me, though I had heard references to some of the videos here and on Reddit.

Among other things, the video analysed showed Josh's proposal to Anna. The proposal was amazingly cringe inducting, from her moving backwards when Josh appeared, to her clear panic when her parents left, and Josh ordering her out of the booth. My question is, were these things noticed when originally broadcast, or was it interpreted at the time as just ordinary surprise at a proposal. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, her cringing away from him is horrifying. 

The YouTuber has also done one about Jim Bob and Michelle and the infamous interview. After watching the one about Josh, I don't plan to watch the JB/M one: I find the very idea traumatizing.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Baba O'Riley]

I read a lot of true crime. I can’t remember which book or which crime this was, but in the book, the criminal was in a fed prison. His wife or mother - - can’t remember which- - would fly there once a month and stay at a house where a kindly woman rented rooms to women who were visiting their menfolk at the prison. Invariably, the women would tend to go the same weekend each month, and a kind of sisterhood would form among them. 

[Freed]

2 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

After seeing the recommendation here, I watched the Observe YouTube video (under spoiler). This was my first video by this YouTuber, so I don't know if his disgust for Josh Duggar was unusual because of Duggar's crimes, or fairly typical of his approach. However, since I had never watched any of the Counting series, all of it was new to me, though I had heard references to some of the videos here and on Reddit.

Among other things, the video analysed showed Josh's proposal to Anna. The proposal was amazingly cringe inducting, from her moving backwards when Josh appeared, to her clear panic when her parents left, and Josh ordering her out of the booth. My question is, were these things noticed when originally broadcast, or was it interpreted at the time as just ordinary surprise at a proposal. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, her cringing away from him is horrifying. 

The YouTuber has also done one about Jim Bob and Michelle and the infamous interview. After watching the one about Josh, I don't plan to watch the JB/M one: I find the very idea traumatizing.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I watched this when it came out - his approach is typically pretty reserved and neutral when it comes to true crime, but with this and the JB/M videos, his disgust for all of their behavior really comes through.  From what I understand, his wife (in the video with him) grew up in similar spaces, so he's seen the effects it has.   The Jim Bob video is where his anger really comes through - he tries to stay as neutral as he can, but he finally flat out says that they're genuinely evil for what they did.  There are the expected TWs for abuse and CSA, and while it was really cathartic for me (seeing someone get angry at abusers), I can see how it would be incredibly triggering for others.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

After seeing the recommendation here, I watched the Observe YouTube video (under spoiler). This was my first video by this YouTuber, so I don't know if his disgust for Josh Duggar was unusual because of Duggar's crimes, or fairly typical of his approach. However, since I had never watched any of the Counting series, all of it was new to me, though I had heard references to some of the videos here and on Reddit.

Among other things, the video analysed showed Josh's proposal to Anna. The proposal was amazingly cringe inducting, from her moving backwards when Josh appeared, to her clear panic when her parents left, and Josh ordering her out of the booth. My question is, were these things noticed when originally broadcast, or was it interpreted at the time as just ordinary surprise at a proposal. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, her cringing away from him is horrifying. 

The YouTuber has also done one about Jim Bob and Michelle and the infamous interview. After watching the one about Josh, I don't plan to watch the JB/M one: I find the very idea traumatizing.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I thought it was funny when he said he didn't know much about these people before this recent arrest but his wife was all about Duggar info having watched for years.  I bet she's a snarker somewhere!

I don't recall reading in old posts that it was noticed, but I haven't read everything and wasn't around back then.  Lots of talk about them being so awkward and him being a arrogant jerk, and how tacky it was, but the scandals put a lot of their behavior in context.

1 minute ago, Freed said:

I watched this when it came out - his approach is typically pretty reserved and neutral when it comes to true crime, but with this and the JB/M videos, his disgust for all of their behavior really comes through.  From what I understand, his wife (in the video with him) grew up in similar spaces, so he's seen the effects it has.   The Jim Bob video is where his anger really comes through - he tries to stay as neutral as he can, but he finally flat out says that they're genuinely evil for what they did.  There are the expected TWs for abuse and CSA, and while it was really cathartic for me (seeing someone get angry at abusers), I can see how it would be incredibly triggering for others.

Agree.  I don't follow his channel but I've seen a couple of his videos and the others I've seen are much more focused on actual body language.   I was a little annoyed with the JB video that he was very focused on what they were saying vs the truth, which is understandable but I was interested in the body language and seeing him outraged about CSA while understandable, was no different than reading any snark board.

I didn't know his wife had a similar background, I must've missed that, but it was nice to see her with solid accurate backstory on the Duggars.  She didn't get that from brain dumping after a pre-show google search.  She knows her Duggars.

[GiggleOfGirls]

26 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

After seeing the recommendation here, I watched the Observe YouTube video (under spoiler). This was my first video by this YouTuber, so I don't know if his disgust for Josh Duggar was unusual because of Duggar's crimes, or fairly typical of his approach. However, since I had never watched any of the Counting series, all of it was new to me, though I had heard references to some of the videos here and on Reddit.

Among other things, the video analysed showed Josh's proposal to Anna. The proposal was amazingly cringe inducting, from her moving backwards when Josh appeared, to her clear panic when her parents left, and Josh ordering her out of the booth. My question is, were these things noticed when originally broadcast, or was it interpreted at the time as just ordinary surprise at a proposal. In retrospect, knowing what we know now, her cringing away from him is horrifying. 

The YouTuber has also done one about Jim Bob and Michelle and the infamous interview. After watching the one about Josh, I don't plan to watch the JB/M one: I find the very idea traumatizing.

 

  Hide contents

 

 

I watched the JB/M video and haven’t watched the Josh one (yet).

 

I hadn’t previously seen the infamous mini golf jumping scene and they looked at that scene in the JB/M video along with a couple scenes from Jill’s wedding, Ben asking to marry Jessa, and the Megyn Kelly interview. So much ick.
 

I did some unpleasant (deep cleaning) housework while watching and the two activities helped distract me just enough from each other (because sometimes I had to take a break from one to pay full attention to the other) that I was able to manage them both.

[Cheetah]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I bet they have been overhearing some stuff they can't understand.  And certainly all of them, even the babies, will be very affected by the stress of Anna and the other adults.  The older ones will know this is life changing trouble even if they don't overhear what.

My guess is they they gaslight them with being framed and that he's going to use this Christian persecution as a ministry opportunity.  I hope I'm wrong.

I don't know how they could keep it a secret from the M kids tbh.  All of the Js over 18 know (eg, James and Jason) which means Jackson and Tyler must know, which in turn means that I'm sure Johannah and Jennifer at least have heard, which means that Jordyn and Josie have heard, too, which means they've said something to Mackynzie.  And so on down from there, although at this point it might stop with the older 2-3 Ms.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, GiggleOfGirls said:

I watched the JB/M video and haven’t watched the Josh one (yet).

 

I hadn’t previously seen the infamous mini golf jumping scene and they looked at that scene in the JB/M video along with a couple scenes from Jill’s wedding, Ben asking to marry Jessa, and the Megyn Kelly interview. So much ick.
 

I did some unpleasant (deep cleaning) housework while watching and the two activities helped distract me just enough from each other (because sometimes I had to take a break from one to pay full attention to the other) that I was able to manage them both.

I've used that same strategy!

[Cheetah]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

I can't see how they kept it from the Ms if the M's are at the TTH.

The Howler's (even the unmarried ones) clearly know and know details.  Justin was at the trial, the next youngest kid is Jackson.  Those two share a room.  There's no way that's not being discussed in the boys room.  Jackson's fave sibling is/was Hannie.  Hannie who has been seen with a smart phone and likely has internet access.  I can't see her not knowing.  In a family like that kids talk, especially with distracted adults (like JB, M, Jana & Anna will have been).  I can't see that being kept from the girls room, especially if Jana is still sharing with them (and doesn't have a place to discuss it with the married girls).

Mackynzie is older than Josie, I'm struggling to see how if younger Duggar girls know, they'd be able to keep it from Mack, especially if she and her siblings have been seamlessly absorbed into clan Duggar which they probably have been.

The younger ones probably haven't been told something properly, but they will have had to say something.

ah I should have kept reading before writing something similar.  Yes, my thoughts, too.