(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 41: Will the Rebers Continue their B&B for Child Predators After the Trial?

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

3 hours ago, livinginthelight said:

There is a group called Virtuous Pedophiles who help hold each other accountable in not acting out. In my (limited - during my internship years) experiences with pedophile clients, there are definitely some who see it as wrong and who work hard to not put themselves into a situation of temptation. Others, of course, just don't care.

This is just anecdotal, can’t remember where I saw it (and what country it was in), but decades ago there was a group of pedophiles who was very open about their feelings but not acting out on them. All nice and dandy. Until they got arrested for CSAM which they had and shared on the down low. Their defense: we aren’t involved in physical CSA.

[Inky]

2 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Sure

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-neuroscientist-who-discovered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/

 

Well! That was interesting - so interesting I read the article, then went to my local library site and downloaded his book! Talk about a rabbit hole!

 

[PinkGreyBrown]

I could see imprisoned Josh studying law cuz 'jailhouse lawyer' is a thing. I'm pretty sure he's obsequious to power. He's going to want to get some kind of leverage on the situation, jailhouse lawyering would seem obvious. It could give him some value in the prison social structure that's otherwise gonna be pretty harsh on him. (Prolly won't add value but that's another.) I'm not saying formally study, jailhouse-lawyer study. In part because I'm betting there will be appeals filed but I have no sense as to whether Jim Bob's gonna throw worse money after bad. & I don't get the sense that either one of them is particularly competent at much of anything. Jailhouse lawyering, or at least talking it up, seems such an obvious direction for Josh is mostly what I'm saying.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I know it looks good for the prosecution at the moment, but I keep thinking how it only takes one holdout.

If he skates on this he will think he's untouchable.  

[Father Son Holy Goat]

59 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

During a Hebrew Talmud study once, I learned about a concept that out of being All-Good, All-Knowing, and All-Powerful, God can only be two out of three (ex: if he knew bad was going to happen and didn’t stop it, he can’t be all good; if he was all good and all powerful, and bad things still happen, he can’t be all knowing; etc.). This has still resonated with me almost a decade later, even if just as a really interesting (to me) theory. 

After my most recent rape I grappled with these questions. Where was God when I was being abused? Why didn’t he send an earthquake to stop it? There’s an entire branch of theology devoted to these questions called theocity, which is basically the study of why bad things happen and where God is. 
 

I found my answer in the idea that God isn’t all powerful. When God created humans, he gave us some of his power in the form of free will. Unfortunately, some people use their free will to hurt others. 
 

 

[mpheels]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I know it looks good for the prosecution at the moment, but I keep thinking how it only takes one holdout.

If he skates on this he will think he's untouchable.  

One holdout doesn’t mean he skates. It means another trial. The federal government has deep pockets, and I expect they will see this as a must-win case given the publicity. They will keep prosecuting until there is a definitive verdict. TBD if Jim Bob will pay for a second trial, or if anyone in the NWA fundie community will volunteer to babysit Josh for several months (I’m assuming Mrs. Reber is closing the inn ASAP). If there is a hung jury, prosecutors will have an even greater advantage for a second trial because they will have seen everything the defense has to offer. 

[missaudrey]

1 hour ago, front hugs > duggs said:

During a Hebrew Talmud study once, I learned about a concept that out of being All-Good, All-Knowing, and All-Powerful, God can only be two out of three (ex: if he knew bad was going to happen and didn’t stop it, he can’t be all good; if he was all good and all powerful, and bad things still happen, he can’t be all knowing; etc.). This has still resonated with me almost a decade later, even if just as a really interesting (to me) theory. 

This is called Epicurus’ trilemma - if God is willing to prevent evil but not able, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able, but not willing, then he is malevolent. If he is both able and willing, then why is there evil in the world? And if he is neither able nor willing then why call him God? 
This paradox didn’t play a role in me leaving the church as I didn’t hear of it until much later, but it definitely made me realise just how ridiculous the concept of an all powerful and all knowing god is. I sometimes marvel at how I ever believed!

[Dandruff]

49 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

Not sure Josh would have been blanket trained since JB & M started following Gothard when he was closer to 2 yo. But I agree if he was responsible for blanket training he probably took a sick pleasure in doing it.

IIRC, MOTY said she started blanket training with the boy twins and it worked so well that she added Joy, who also would have been very young.

I suspect Josh's upbringing was semi-normal until his parents flipped out over the miscarriage then hooked up with Gothardism.  After that, I believe he was probably subjected to more responsibility than was appropriate for his age, along with terrible punishments...all while watching the food portions shrink and mama focusing her love and attention on newborn after newborn.

This doesn't excuse him.  I doubt any of the older kids (and probably the younger) would honestly refer to their childhoods as comfortable, though I think it's possible he bore the brunt of negative attention from JB & M.  I also wouldn't be surprised if he was expected, or at least allowed, to discipline his siblings.

45 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

During a Hebrew Talmud study once, I learned about a concept that out of being All-Good, All-Knowing, and All-Powerful, God can only be two out of three (ex: if he knew bad was going to happen and didn’t stop it, he can’t be all good; if he was all good and all powerful, and bad things still happen, he can’t be all knowing; etc.). This has still resonated with me almost a decade later, even if just as a really interesting (to me) theory. 

I'm going to think about that - thank you.  I've heard a version of things that says He intends all for the ultimate good, even if we can't perceive it.  That requires some trust on our part to accept, which - if one is doubtful enough to be spending much time chewing on the subject - is going to be difficult.  OTOH, we can also pray that the good becomes apparent, which serves to acknowledge the doubt and provide a means to communicate our concerns.*

*Personally, if I was close to a Josh-type situation there's nfw I'd be praying for insight on any supposed good...but I'm of somewhat limited faith and tolerance for rationalizations.  Others may get better mileage out of it.

[karenb4729]

I was up late last night when Joy's post came across my instagram. She had just posted it so given the time difference it had to be around 2 or 3am.  She has to be trying to process everything that's been said and presented to the court so publicly.  Who knows what was said to her when the incident happened or when it came out a few years ago, I doubt she knew the full extent until this week with the Holt testimony.  I couldn't sleep last night just thinking about the pain she must be going through and I sincerely hopes that she can get some counseling.  It makes my heart ache for her and all the victims.  

[SamanthasMom]

I also don’t think it’s a given that Anna and the kids will continue to be supported. Both sets of parents are missing from the trial, and so much is coming out how much worse would it be if Anna did spill the beans? It is about as bad as it can get now. They might want to wash their hands of Josh’s whole family. I would not want to plan on continued support from cheapskate JB.

[ElizaB]

4 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

Spoilered for people who are disturbed by the concept of "blanket training." (For those who don't know what "blanket training" means, it is an abusive method of training very young children to stay on a blanket instead of exploring their surroundings.) This is also speculation about Josh and nature versus nurture.

  Hide contents

The first time I read about blanket training, which I was believed was documented by the Pearls, I was nauseated. 

I am speculating that the blanket training that Jim Bob and Michelle are suspected to have employed with their children is the reason for the weird passivity of the Duggar offspring. Why initiate if it might lead to punishment? I also wonder if Josh was responsible for "blanket training" his younger siblings. If he had some dubious tendencies towards enjoying the sufferings of others, he was probably overjoyed when he graduated to being the inflictor rather than the receiver. The joy would have been powerfully reinforcing, emphasing his tendencies. 

 

 

 

A little off topic but perhaps a laugh we could all use on this thread. Every time I hear about blanket training I always remember 7-8 years ago when one of my kids was about 15 months. One evening my husband casually mentioned it was about time we do some blanket training. My jaw dropped to the floor. I could not believe that the man I married would dare suggest this. He took one look at my horrified face and responded with, "what? It is going to be winter soon and she needs to start learning to sleep with a blanket over her and keep it on."

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, SamanthasMom said:

I also don’t think it’s a given that Anna and the kids will continue to be supported. Both sets of parents are missing from the trial, and so much is coming out how much worse would it be if Anna did spill the beans? It is about as bad as it can get now. They might want to wash their hands of Josh’s whole family. I would not want to plan on continued support from cheapskate JB.

Maybe if the dirt she knows is related only to Josh.  But I'm guessing she has dirt on the elder Duggars they don't want to see on the pages of People.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

14 minutes ago, karenb4729 said:

I was up late last night when Joy's post came across my instagram. She had just posted it so given the time difference it had to be around 2 or 3am.  She has to be trying to process everything that's been said and presented to the court so publicly.  Who knows what was said to her when the incident happened or when it came out a few years ago, I doubt she knew the full extent until this week with the Holt testimony.  I couldn't sleep last night just thinking about the pain she must be going through and I sincerely hopes that she can get some counseling.  It makes my heart ache for her and all the victims.  

My heart breaks for the Duggar women Josh abused and really all abused people. May they all find support, peace, and be able to follow their own path of healing. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Father Son Holy Goat

[QuiverFullOfCondoms]

1 hour ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

I could see imprisoned Josh studying law cuz 'jailhouse lawyer' is a thing. I'm pretty sure he's obsequious to power. He's going to want to get some kind of leverage on the situation, jailhouse lawyering would seem obvious. It could give him some value in the prison social structure that's otherwise gonna be pretty harsh on him. (Prolly won't add value but that's another.) I'm not saying formally study, jailhouse-lawyer study. In part because I'm betting there will be appeals filed but I have no sense as to whether Jim Bob's gonna throw worse money after bad. & I don't get the sense that either one of them is particularly competent at much of anything. Jailhouse lawyering, or at least talking it up, seems such an obvious direction for Josh is mostly what I'm saying.

He’s going to be in federal prison, not jail or state prison. He’ll probably be in protective custody due to the nature of his crimes. I doubt he'll have much contact and interaction with the other inmates.

[PennySycamore]

I've been reading synopses of L&O:SVU episodes and the episode I referred to may have been Season 1, episode 21, but I'm not sure.   I'm up to season 7, but there is only so much reading of episode synopses I can take at one time.  

In bereavement group in our parish, the facilitator once played a tape by the rabbi who wrote When Bad Things Happen to Good People.  He had lost a son to progeria and had wondered what kind of god would take his child to old age practically before his life had even started?  His conclusion was that God was not all powerful.  There were some forces that God did not control.  I personally found comfort in that.  I'm an atheist now, but losing my daughter has nothing to do with it. 

@QuiverFullOfCondoms,  there'a federal prison in Florida for the worst of those convicted of sex crimes.  The team doctor who molested all those young female gymnasts is locked up there.  I could be wrong about this, but I think it's a Supermax.  

Edited December 6, 2021 by PennySycamore

[Father Son Holy Goat]

Just now, PennySycamore said:

I've been reading synopses of L&O:SVU episodes and the episode I referred to may have been Season 1, episode 21, but I'm not sure.   I'm up to season 7, but there is only so much reading of episode synopses I can take at one time.  

In bereavement group in our parish, the facilitator once played a tape by the rabbi who wrote When Bad Things Happen to Good People.  He had lost a son to progeria and had wondered what kind of god would take his child to old age practically before his life had even started?  His conclusion was that God was not all powerful.  There were some forces that God did not control.  I personally found comfort in that.  I'm an atheist now, but losing my daughter has nothing to do with it.  

Harold Kushner 

[PinkGreyBrown]

7 minutes ago, QuiverFullOfCondoms said:

He’s going to be in federal prison, not jail or state prison. He’ll probably be in protective custody due to the nature of his crimes. I doubt he'll have much contact and interaction with the other inmates.

From previous discussions it had sounded like Josh would most likely end up in a federal penitentiary (or portion thereof) dedicated to sex offenders & others needing to be kept in protective custody / away from general population (convicted former law enforcement, I guess, maybe), & would be interacting with that population. So that's more what I had in mind.

& about what JB & Michelle might want kept secret: probably ordinary information such as what they're like when they're angry, if they yell or are mean. They're such control freaks who've put so much effort into presenting what they seem to think of as a perfect front, it's gonna be all the many ways they fall short of that image they have of themselves. Way more likely than the JB-is-money-laundering & similar speculations floating around.

[Phoenix]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

I can't get over that Anna, after learning all of this information (she hasn't seen the images but can we assume she has at least read the graphic descriptions of them?) is not deeply disturbed.  She has to know this was not Matt Waller... If Anna told JB & Michelle that she was creeped out and needed to stay at their home with the kids and live separately from Josh until she had clarity on what the facts were, I feel JB & Michelle would allow a separation for awhile. But she hasn't. She walks into court arm in arm like a puppy clinging to him for dear life.

I have been thinking about this as well. Shortly after Josh was installed at the Reber home I read in a news article (don't recall which one) that Josh didn't want to be alone and asked Anna to stay with him. Clearly he still treats her with utter contempt, nearly dragging her in and out of court even with cameras rolling. However I wonder if maybe from Anna's point of view Josh finally wants her company, needs her for support rather than just a broodmare. To Anna this focus Josh is showing her is just great. It must show he actually cares for her, needs her etc.... As outsiders lookIng in we just see more of the same Josh is the center of the universe arrogance. Anna may feel she is on her second honeymoon and desperate about the idea she will likely soon lose him again, but this time to prison. We know it is a mind fuck, but Anna might not at the moment.

[cacophony_grey]

4 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

There was an episode of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit about a support group for pedophiles who don't wish to act on their impulses to abuse kids.  Damn, though, if I can remember how it turned out or even what season it was.  

Season 10, Episode 2: Confessions. I just happened to see that episode last week.

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I know it looks good for the prosecution at the moment, but I keep thinking how it only takes one holdout.

If he skates on this he will think he's untouchable.  

I learned something during my reason stint on a criminal jury.  It was a six person jury, and after the trial, four of the six were "he's obviously guilty" while two of us were like "there is literally no evidence here".  (A couple of the "guilty" jurors, actually said "The police wouldn't have arrested him if he wasn't guilty".  🥵)

The state put up almost no evidence and what little they had, the otherwise rather inept defense attorney was able to poke major holes. I really couldn't understand why the state even brought the case, unless some evidence was not allowed in at the last minute. We deliberated for five hours.  At that point one of the "obviously guilty" jurors told me as the foreperson to advise the judge we were hopelessly deadlocked and we'd have to hang.

The judge was having none of it. Go back and talk some more. When it became obvious we'd have to return the following day, the "obviously guilty" jurors started backing away when the two of us who were "not guilty" stayed firm. We both said at one point that we could not convict this man on such scant evidence, and we'd return the following day, and every day after if necessary.  Finally when it was 5 - 1 not guilty, the lone final hold out said "I have things to do tomorrow, so I'll go along with Not Guilty". 

This wasn't a major crime, but what I learned was that jurors who feel the strongest about their position may tend to sway the others when push comes to shove. No judge wants a hung jury.  And it seems jurors who don't have a strong basis for their positions are more likely to agree with the majority at the end of the day.

You never know what a jury will do, but I can't see any of them feeling very strongly that there is any reasonable doubt in Josh's case.  

[Chickenbutt]

I am confident that Josh will be convicted. Let's say he get 10 years. When he gets out he will be a registered sex offender. How is that going to work for him? He certainly can't go to TTH. Too many nieces and nephews there. The warehouse? Does it meet the distance requirements from the TTH. Going to Florida to visit Anna's family. That's a big nope. Can't be around Nathan and Nurie's kid. (Ohhhh a Duggar/Rodrigues crossover. JRod would be so proud). Imagine the restrictions on his life. If he thinks that his pre-conviction life was a snoozefest, imagine his post-conviction life. 

ETA: I love the thought of Josh forever being "that Uncle" whispered about by the kids. 

Clarity: I hate what he did but to know he will branded for life tickles me. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Chickenbutt

[onekidanddone]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I know it looks good for the prosecution at the moment, but I keep thinking how it only takes one holdout.

If he skates on this he will think he's untouchable.  

And his violence will just escalate 

[luv2laugh]

I predict that it will be the 5 yr minimum. 😕 I also worry about Matthew Waller's testimony in that it may sow a seed of doubt. If he is acquitted, I think that the town would rage against the entire Duggar family which wouldn't be fair for people that are non-Josh./non-JB

Edited December 6, 2021 by luv2laugh

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

14 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I predict that it will be the 5 yr minimum. 😕 I also worry about Matthew Waller's testimony in that it may sow a seed of doubt. If he is acquitted, I think that the town would rage against the entire Duggar family which wouldn't be fair for people that are non-Josh./non-JB

From what I know about his testimony, he wasn't very strong in his statement. "Sounds familiar" vs all the expert testimony?

I think he'll get more than 5 years, but not much more. He probably would have helped himself by taking responsibility, but this judge has a history for sentencing around 6 -7 years for first time, possession only CP offenders. I know people talk about how bad the content is, but nearly all of these guys are looking at horrible stuff with under 12s.  The vast majority of these guys are not looking at stills of nude kids innocently playing at the beach. It's all very dark. 

[JDuggs]

35 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

When he gets out he will be a registered sex offender. How is that going to work for him? He certainly can't go to TTH. Too many nieces and nephews there. The warehouse? Does it meet the distance requirements from the TTH. Going to Florida to visit Anna's family. That's a big nope. Can't be around Nathan and Nurie's kid.

Laws vary by state, but I think most laws regarding registered sex offenders are concerning where they reside (not near parks, schools, churches), not who they can visit and come into contact with.