(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 41: Will the Rebers Continue their B&B for Child Predators After the Trial?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

 

 

Reminder not to name any of the files or sites containing CSAM or speculate on abuse.  

Continued from here....

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by hoipolloi
Updated thread count

[Lovebug]

Thanks @HerNameIsBuffy for letting me know.
 

For those interested in some of the Holt/Duggar conversations, here is Emily’s video about the Motions in Limine. The Duggar discussion begins at 29 minutes, with the Bobye conversation at about 46 minutes. It’s great information, explains a ton, but is very, very disturbing.

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Lovebug

[Cheetah]

I was trying to reply to something @HerNameIsBuffy posted in the last thread as it was closing.  The question was about whether there are people with pedophile tendencies who don't act out and it remind me of a podcast I listened to a while back and don't remember the details except that it talks about a support group for folks with pedophile tendencies who don't want to act on them:  https://www.thisamericanlife.org/522/tarred-and-feathered

I might relisten to that this week or go down the rabbit hole of the author they linked.  

btw I think this should be 41 not 40 again

8 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

I was trying to reply to something @HerNameIsBuffy posted in the last thread as it was closing.  The question was about whether there are people with pedophile tendencies who don't act out and it remind me of a podcast I listened to a while back and don't remember the details except that it talks about a support group for folks with pedophile tendencies who don't want to act on them:  https://www.thisamericanlife.org/522/tarred-and-feathered

I might relisten to that this week or go down the rabbit hole of the author they linked.  

btw I think this should be 41 not 40 again

I clicked through from the podcast linked above and got to an article on the same topic:  https://medium.com/matter/youre-16-youre-a-pedophile-you-dont-want-to-hurt-anyone-what-do-you-do-now-e11ce4b88bdb

[hoipolloi]

6 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

The question was about whether there are people with pedophile tendencies who don't act out

The answer to this is yes, according various sources I have read (e.g., articles) or heard (e.g., podcasts). Not sure I can find links but will look around.

IIUC, this is a therapeutic goal for such individuals -- get them to recognize and deal with their illness, and then learn not to act on their impulses, including the avoidance of CSAM. 

[FiveAcres]

Spoilered for people who are disturbed by the concept of "blanket training." (For those who don't know what "blanket training" means, it is an abusive method of training very young children to stay on a blanket instead of exploring their surroundings.) This is also speculation about Josh and nature versus nurture.

Spoiler

The first time I read about blanket training, which I was believed was documented by the Pearls, I was nauseated. 

I am speculating that the blanket training that Jim Bob and Michelle are suspected to have employed with their children is the reason for the weird passivity of the Duggar offspring. Why initiate if it might lead to punishment? I also wonder if Josh was responsible for "blanket training" his younger siblings. If he had some dubious tendencies towards enjoying the sufferings of others, he was probably overjoyed when he graduated to being the inflictor rather than the receiver. The joy would have been powerfully reinforcing, emphasing his tendencies. 

 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

20 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

The question was about whether there are people with pedophile tendencies who don't act out

That wasn't me, I didn't post on that topic.

[JMO]

So I've been ruminating on this for a few days but remember that insanely long questionnaire JB had the suitors fill out if they wanted to pursue a relationship with his *precious * daughters? It's even more fucked up now knowing how he failed them and gas lit them about their abuse and then turned around and acted all sanctimonious about how he's this paragon of parental love and guardianship. Wtf. Putting those guys through hoops after trying to cover up his own son's sins and moral failings. They are so big on public testimony and telling everyone about your sins and how they brought you closer to Jesus but I'm sure as shit that Joshly was not encouraged to share his full dark secrets. Hypocrite.  

[livinginthelight]

There is a group called Virtuous Pedophiles who help hold each other accountable in not acting out. In my (limited - during my internship years) experiences with pedophile clients, there are definitely some who see it as wrong and who work hard to not put themselves into a situation of temptation. Others, of course, just don't care.

[Idlewild]

Lemeul Reber is (or certainly was) one of the ‘Freedomist’ group- Trump loving right wing young people- mostly college grads. They had Joy and Austin on one of their podcasts (who definitely aren’t college grads) and I think some of the other Duggar boys have links with them.

I really think that some of the Duggar supporters had no idea what CSAM is about - they hear ‘porn’ and dismiss it as something not good, but not the end of the world. They think child trafficking and exploitation is something liberals and heathens do and don’t join the dots. If there is any positive aspect to this, it’s that these blinkered people may just get an education about CSA. ( and no Justin, it’s not a reason to give a thumbs up to anyone).

[Cheetah]

8 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

That wasn't me, I didn't post on that topic.

Sorry!  I went back and looked... it was @JermajestyDuggar.  I got all confused with the thread change.  

[Dandruff]

I keep imagining the trial ending, Josh being led away, and JB's voice in the background saying "Thank you all for COOMMMIIIING!"

I'm getting strange.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

Going back several pages, I think abusers abuse those they see as weak and/or vulnerable. It doesn’t mean the person is weak and/or vulnerable, it means they are perceived that way by the abuser. 

During my own abuse I was perceived as someone who could be abused, so my abusers made the choice to do that. There were other instances where I think the abuse happened because I was so strong and they wanted to break me. I do think it is something that was/is one of the major disappointments for my abusers, because they never did manage to silence me. I did what I wanted.

I do appreciate reading all of the support for victims here. I keep thinking, “My abuse was not that different. Those words apply to me too.”

[Bluebirdbluebell]

7 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Lemeul Reber is (or certainly was) one of the ‘Freedomist’ group- Trump loving right wing young people- mostly college grads. They had Joy and Austin on one of their podcasts (who definitely aren’t college grads) and I think some of the other Duggar boys have links with them.

I really think that some of the Duggar supporters had no idea what CSAM is about - they hear ‘porn’ and dismiss it as something not good, but not the end of the world. They think child trafficking and exploitation is something liberals and heathens do and don’t join the dots. If there is any positive aspect to this, it’s that these blinkered people may just get an education about CSA. ( and no Justin, it’s not a reason to give a thumbs up to anyone).

Tr**p hasn't been around long enough for Trumpism to be a life long thing. I certainly think people of all walks of life can hang out together. But the emphasis on education and only two kids suggest that the Rebers aren't lifelong IBLPers. I still get the sense the Rebers fell down the fundie rabbit-hole relatively recently. 

[sansan]

Even if the Rebels are not at the trial, I really don’t know, they have to be reading info or people are telling them the information, I would not blame them to throw his crap out at the gate and lock the gate. Just how naïve can you be or how generous to the Duggars do you feel the need to be. Personally, unless Duggars furnished the bedroom, I would take the whole setup out to the pasture and burn it. You could never clean any of it up enough to feel ok about it ever again.

[JermajestyDuggar]

47 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

I was trying to reply to something @HerNameIsBuffy posted in the last thread as it was closing.  The question was about whether there are people with pedophile tendencies who don't act out and it remind me of a podcast I listened to a while back and don't remember the details except that it talks about a support group for folks with pedophile tendencies who don't want to act on them:  https://www.thisamericanlife.org/522/tarred-and-feathered

I might relisten to that this week or go down the rabbit hole of the author they linked.  

btw I think this should be 41 not 40 again

I clicked through from the podcast linked above and got to an article on the same topic:  https://medium.com/matter/youre-16-youre-a-pedophile-you-dont-want-to-hurt-anyone-what-do-you-do-now-e11ce4b88bdb

And this makes sense to me. There are people out there who don’t act on every single impulse they have. I’m sure people have had the urge to murder someone but they decided against it because of all the reasons we all use to decide not to hurt another human being. The fact that a person ACTS on the impulse to molest a child is the issue. They are not considering the other person. I would assume they lack the empathy that most would have in Not wanting to harm a child.  I would assume they only care about their own feelings. That’s what I would assume for Josh. That he only cares about himself. He doesn’t care if he hurts others. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, sansan said:

Even if the Rebels are not at the trial, I really don’t know, they have to be reading info or people are telling them the information, I would not blame them to throw his crap out at the gate and lock the gate. Just how naïve can you be or how generous to the Duggars do you feel the need to be. Personally, unless Duggars furnished the bedroom, I would take the whole setup out to the pasture and burn it. You could never clean any of it up enough to feel ok about it ever again.

They knew the details of the the charges as well as the specifics of what he'd done to his molestation victims.   It was explained to them at the bail hearing and they still took him in.  Idk why anyone would give them credit for decency now.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

16 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Tr**p hasn't been around long enough for Trumpism to be a life long thing. I certainly think people of all walks of life can hang out together. But the emphasis on education and only two kids suggest that the Rebers aren't lifelong IBLPers. I still get the sense the Rebers fell down the fundie rabbit-hole relatively recently. 

Also, the families know each other from church, likely meaning Glory Light Baptist. Their website gave me the impression that they’re a fairly normal Baptist church. Remember, the Duggars’ cult is not their church but their “homeschool group.” They might attend church with relatively normal people.

[neuroticcat]

Before the thread locked, someone asked about sources on porn escalation. My opinion is formed on personal experience with a partner with a porn problem and reading on it I did a decade or so ago. I mean, I googled for sources and there is a lot of information if you want to learn more - both peer reviewed science and articles for laypeople discussing this issue. It feels kind of disingenuous for me to just link a couple of random studies here. A lot of it has to do with desensitization and the need to increase whatever specific element to get the bigger dopamine rush. In that sense, it’s not too different from any other addiction brain-wise. But I think there’s likely a subtext to the question, trying to make a clarification between acceptable and unacceptable pornography.

My understanding is that a distinction is now made between “regular” porn use and PPU (problematic pornography use) which would include, of course, CSAM, and any use that impacts sexual behavior, relationships, every day life, etc. or leads to increasingly violent behavior. Personally, I think it’s a garbage distinction and believe all porn is dehumanizing and destructive for intimacy, but I am completely biased and not a peer reviewed scientist, so that’s doubtfully going to be compelling to someone more sex positive.

This article does a fair job of explaining the concepts and also nuances it by saying not every person viewing porn will necessarily escalate - only a slight majority according to their stats. https://fightthenewdrug.org/how-porn-can-become-an-escalating-behavior/ 

Meh, I don’t care about their nuance, I think all porn is ultimately destructive and despise any attempt to normalize it. I think it’s tragic that this next generation is already experiencing increasing sexual violence and dysfunction in teen dating relationships because of normalization of use. I hate that places like PornHub exist, peddling “adult” porn alongside CSAM with zero accountability. I hate that places like PornHub get more streaming than any other service combined (Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc). I hate that Twitter and Instagram and Facebook cannot give enough of a shit to deal with CSAM on their websites, and I think a big piece of the problem is that we pretend like we can blur the lines, that somehow 18 plus one month years old magically makes any content appropriate.

I am glad more secular psychologists and research is investigating this. Otherwise, it’s too easy to write it off as a religious/fundie/in enlightened view.  
 

 

 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

Are the Rebers allowed to throw him back or are they required to house him until he goes to prison? Even if it's not required, they may feel they have to keep him around since they gave their word. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Before the thread locked, someone asked about sources on porn escalation. My opinion is formed on personal experience with a partner with a porn problem and reading on it I did a decade or so ago. I mean, I googled for sources and there is a lot of information if you want to learn more - both peer reviewed science and articles for laypeople discussing this issue. It feels kind of disingenuous for me to just link a couple of random studies here. A lot of it has to do with desensitization and the need to increase whatever specific element to get the bigger dopamine rush. In that sense, it’s not too different from any other addiction brain-wise. But I think there’s likely a subtext to the question, trying to make a clarification between acceptable and unacceptable pornography.

My understanding is that a distinction is now made between “regular” porn use and PPU (problematic pornography use) which would include, of course, CSAM, and any use that impacts sexual behavior, relationships, every day life, etc. or leads to increasingly violent behavior. Personally, I think it’s a garbage distinction and believe all porn is dehumanizing and destructive for intimacy, but I am completely biased and not a peer reviewed scientist, so that’s doubtfully going to be compelling to someone more sex positive.

This article does a fair job of explaining the concepts and also nuances it by saying not every person viewing porn will necessarily escalate - only a slight majority according to their stats. https://fightthenewdrug.org/how-porn-can-become-an-escalating-behavior/ 

Meh, I don’t care about their nuance, I think all porn is ultimately destructive and despise any attempt to normalize it. I think it’s tragic that this next generation is already experiencing increasing sexual violence and dysfunction in teen dating relationships because of normalization of use. I hate that places like PornHub exist, peddling “adult” porn alongside CSAM with zero accountability. I hate that places like PornHub get more streaming than any other service combined (Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc). I hate that Twitter and Instagram and Facebook cannot give enough of a shit to deal with CSAM on their websites, and I think a big piece of the problem is that we pretend like we can blur the lines, that somehow 18 plus one month years old magically makes any content appropriate.

I am glad more secular psychologists and research is investigating this. Otherwise, it’s too easy to write it off as a religious/fundie/in enlightened view.  
 

 

 

Thanks for the response.  I'm not going to hit the link as an anti-pornography non-profit isn't an unbiased source.  I was just curious if there was evidence that viewing CSAM was shown to affect the brain differently regarding escalation than consensual adult porn.

I am also glad there is more research being done on this.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

10 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Also, the families know each other from church, likely meaning Glory Light Baptist. Their website gave me the impression that they’re a fairly normal Baptist church. Remember, the Duggars’ cult is not their church but their “homeschool group.” They might attend church with relatively normal people.

The Duggars used to be IFB, which is a cult. I'm surprised they're now going to mainstream Baptist Churches. IBLP is more than a homeschool group; it's a whole way of life.

[EmCatlyn]

@gustava  In the other thread, you had asked about a timeline.  I was replying to you saying I had posted a timeline in an earlier thread.  I was also explaining, in response to someone else, that I think the Holts were initially told only a watered down version and it wasn’t until Josh confessed to them that they got the big picture.  That post got lost in the ether, so I have repeated its substance.

(BTW, there seems to be a need for a timeline, and if others wish I can clean up and expand my previous timeline and it could be pinned by the mods if they agree.  Just let me know.)

[PennySycamore]

There was an episode of Law and Order: Special Victims Unit about a support group for pedophiles who don't wish to act on their impulses to abuse kids.  Damn, though, if I can remember how it turned out or even what season it was.  

[Antimony]

3 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Thanks for the response.  I'm not going to hit the link as an anti-pornography non-profit isn't an unbiased source.  I was just curious if there was evidence that viewing CSAM was shown to affect the brain differently regarding escalation than consensual adult porn.

I am also glad there is more research being done on this.

Fight The New Drug is definitely not an unbiased source by far. Founded in Utah...hmm.

There was an article objecting to the organization in a Salt Lake paper from written by sex therapists (possibly also biased, but you know, educated and deal with counseling couples and single people on sexual problems) that includes;

Quote

The leaders and presenters of FTND are not mental health nor sexuality professionals and do not have sufficient training in sexuality or human development to be addressing these subjects. Investigative journalists have recognized FTND as an LDS organization, which FTND continues to deny.

Research supports that those who come from religious backgrounds where there is moral disapproval of pornography are more likely to identify themselves and others as "sex addicts" for behaviors that do not differ from the general population. FTND fits this description and yet is being allowed to address students in public schools.

Claiming that pornography affects the brain "like a drug" and that "cutting back can lead to withdrawal symptoms" is false. Drugs introduce chemicals into the brain. There is not a single study that demonstrates what neurochemicals are released in the brain when watching porn, nor that these neurochemicals are any different from those released while eating chocolate or watching football.

The largest published neuroscience study of this topic to date, as well as a series of published behavioral studies, shows that those who report problems viewing sex films do not resemble any other substance or "behavioral" addictions. According to their own website, 90 percent of FTND attendees end up agreeing that "pornography releases the same chemicals in your brain as other hard drugs" compared to 43 percent who believed this prior to their presentation. FTND is advertising their ability to successfully spread false information.

FTND claims they use "peer reviewed science and research" to back their information. A "sex/porn addiction" diagnosis does not exist in the DSM-5, which was explicitly rejected for "lack of scientific evidence."

Sexual educators in the USA are highly regulated by concerned parents, legislators and religious leaders. So much so that they are generally impeded from offering effective and comprehensive education. Just this spring an opt-in sex education bill sponsored by Rep. Brian King didn't even make it to the floor. Sex-ed curriculum for public schools goes through a rigorous process to get approved. FTND avoids all regulatory procedures/standards and lands right in the middle of our public schools by something as simple as getting approval from a PTA board or approaching individual teachers directly.

I do wish they had a link through to the bolding, though that could be on the part of the publisher. (How hard is it to get mainstream news to link through to PubMed? Harder than you'd think, it's a real problem when you get a news station to notice your research and then they dang won't link to it...)

[Emma]

A couple of years ago I read a fascinating article, in the Atlantic, I believe. A scientist was studying brain scans of prisoners diagnosed as psychopaths to see if there were physical differences in their brains. He decided there  were and as a control did brain scans of himself and his family. Much to his horror he saw a psychopathic brain in his family. He broke the anonymity protocol to find out who it was. And it was himself! He talked to his friends and family saying well, I’m totally normal. And his friends and family replied, umm, not really. They said he did have a few of those psychopathic tendencies, albeit more mildly. His theory ended up being, yes, there are physical differences in psychopathic brains, and being brought up in a loving family, rather than a chaotic violent family, can temper these tendencies and allow these people to be productive members of society rather than violent criminals.