Harry & Meghan 8: Time's Most Insufferable

[EmCatlyn]

23 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

If the article is true, then Charles has made overtures to try to make a trip work.  At least while with Charles, they'd have protection.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1551500/prince-charles-news-meghan-markle-prince-harry-uk-visit-invitation

It sounds like this is less about protection than it is about Charles trying to be friends with his son after all the bad feeling there was last year (especially after Harry announced publicly that his father had not been a good father and that Charles’s had cut him off financially before Harry was ready, etc.).

You are right that Harry and Meghan would have protection while staying with Charles.  That isn’t what Harry wants, however.  He wants “royal protection” while going around on non-royal business.  The event that is cited as proof that the Sussexes need the protection is that after leaving a public (but not royal) engagement during his last visit, Harry’s car was surrounded by paparazzi. This could happen again if he was staying with Charles.

My opinion is that a simple solution to Harry’s fears would be to make his visits to the UK very private (not engaging in any public events where he won’t have royal protection).  This way his kids could visit the family and know bits of England while remaining safe.  The issue, of course, is that the Sussexes don’t want to immure themselves in royal estates or palaces through their whole visit.

[louisa05]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

I wouldn’t expect anyone to criticize their mother publicly.  However, the “the press killed my mother” rhetoric and what sounds like a paranoid fear that “history will repeat itself” and the press will kill (cause the death of) Meghan or his kids is definitely a problem.

Exactly. If he’d worked out on his own that there were multiple factors in her death or that she manipulated the press, he would shut up about it. 

[EmCatlyn]

Quote

Speaking to the Mirror, Dai Davies [the former head of Scotland Yard's royal protection unit]  said: “A lot of these issues appear to be greatly inflamed by Harry and his advisers, it really doesn’t need to be so fraught.

“If ever there was a proper credible threat to Prince Harry or his family then the Met would take the appropriate action.

“If he or his family were to return to Britain in an official capacity or to support the Queen during the Platinum Jubilee events I’m sure he would be afforded the necessary protection.

“I would argue robustly against his case that he is not safe in the UK.

"If ever the British intelligence services did discover a threat to him and his family they are hardly going to sit on it.”

Former Met Police on Protection of Harry

The above makes plenty of sense to me.  The Met would provide a protection detail for the Sussexes if the Met assessed that there was a threat and/or if they were participating in a royal event such as the jubilee.

Harry seems to be making an unnecessary fuss.  

[viii]

3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Harry seems to be making an unnecessary fuss.  

How unlike him. 

[just_ordinary]

@EmCatlyn I agree that she gained a lot. She would have never gotten the profile and connections she has now without him. 
But I also think both married for love first and and the other things that came with it (fame, glamour, profile, children) were not ignored but not necessarily the biggest driving force.

Disclaimer: I am going off my very personal theory about events in my assessment, so this doesn’t hold up more than other theories.

I believe Harry sold Meghan a completely unrealistic future in the RF. 
Now, wherever he got those ideas from, I don’t know. Maybe the two young teenagers dreamed up how they would do things differently after their mother’s experiences. That’s a very realistic version to me. Maybe they discussed reforms and Wiliam realised at one point he actually wants to be king (after the interview where everyone questioned him because it sounded he doesn’t want it). Or he got more realistic insight into what is possible and what not the more he got involved. Maybe he just grew out if those dreams. Or he realised the more traditional way will provide a better cushion. 

I don’t believe for a second Meghan’s claims that she just naively and love struck stumbled into everything and had no clue about the RF or the British press. That was just part of her PR. I do think however it was a shock that things were very different to what he told her they would be. And when she realised that his version was not going to be true she didn’t want to stick around. I do think she wanted to make it- under the vision he sold her. Adjusting to this royal life is hard. Adjusting to married life after only what two years of long distance is hard. Adjusting to a new country is hard. Adjusting to parenthood is hard. His family is on many levels more dysfunctional than what he might have told her. The whole “family she never had, we all hug it out” was always such a bullshit. Most long term royal watchers never believed this for a second. The “hitting the ground running” narrative was such a big disservice- she never had a chance of succeeding. Someone should have stopped this even if she thought she could. The shit show with her family didn’t have to go down that way. But it seems Harry didn’t break some hard truths to her but rather believed his own hype (the golden boy, the fun brother that should be king if you only ask the subjects themselves). It seems he really thought he and his wife would continue to be on the same level as W&K for now, just as he was as single. Their mix of family and business is a recipe for disaster had hurt feelings all around. So their must be lots of moments where you feel rejected or just not as loved as the heir. Throw children into the mix and it gets worse. He might have been fine with being in the fourth row, but seeing your wife treated that way and your children is probably ripping open some old wounds. 
To me, he has some serious emotional and mental troubles that haven’t been dealt with properly. He had several years of therapy but maybe it wasn’t the right treatment yet. I don’t think Meghan had a clue who she was actually marrying and what she was marrying into. 
And it seems to me, she wasn’t willing to give up her future of glamour and fame to try it the other way. She could have made it in my opinion, but it’s fine if she didn’t want it or realised quickly she couldn’t after all. 
And it’s very true that she had to bear the brunt of criticism. It’s always the woman. Sadly most gossip still works in those sexist ways. I am not completely immune. I can praise/criticise their style and looks for hours while completely ignoring the men. 
Also, with Kate being there first, there was always going to be a competition made up in the papers. Who looked better, who followed protocol better. after the initial Kate bashing (the boring, frumpy, anti feminist) they all set out for the newbie. That was to be expected and nothing personal. 
When she was suicidal, her mental health campaign husband did not say: fuck it- I need to help her. I cancel the engagement, call her gyn or any doctor. It’s not as if they haven’t been able to keep shit under wraps for some time.
So in that regard- I think she got the short stick because she is now stuck (for now) with a bitter, unstable husband. A husband that couldn’t life up to his promises and now, instead of getting his shit together is making a fool of himself by throwing raging fits, lecturing people and whining. Whatever ambitions she has, and I do believe she is all set to cash in on the title and profile, he is a big bad stumbling block. They both enable pretty stupid and delusional behaviour in each other. They have a massive communication problem with the public (so many holes, so many muddy stories…). She is not innocent in this whole scenario, but I also think his part of the whole shit show is bigger. 

[SweetJuly]

No matter how much they may love one another, Harry and Meghan appear to bring out the worst in each other.

For the sake of Archie and Lilibet, I just hope they are able to rein it in a bit more in private. I recently read something that rang very true to me "Parenting a child will bring up all your childhood hurts. If you are not careful, they will become your children's problem."

[rosamundi]

13 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Harry may have been unrealistic about what Meghan could do or not do once they were married, but Meghan had many friends who warned her what being a royal would be like.

I really do think that Harry sold her an idealistic and therefore unrealistic portrait of what life would be like, for whatever reason. Maybe he feared she wouldn't marry him if he was honest about what the life really entailed. Maybe he wasn't fully aware of how the press treats female members of the Royal Family. However, Meghan only had to spend five minutes reading what the British tabloids had to say about the Duchess of Cambridge to realise that it would be the same for her, and probably with a side order of racism as well.

I don't know whether the two women sat down and had a heart to heart, and Kate spelled out that "the tabloids and the womens' magazines will do everything to paint you in a negative light, if you lose weight you'll have an eating disorder, if you gain weight you'll be comfort eating, if you do this it will be painted as that... You will be chased by the press trying to get long lens photos of you sunbathing topless, it is a level of scrutiny beyond anything and it will do your head in."

If they had that talk I don't know if Meghan took it on board or if it was so wildly different to the picture Harry painted that she saw it as "oh, she doesn't want me to marry Harry she's trying to put me off," and ignored it, and then it was exactly like that and she couldn't deal.

[viii]

I also think there’s a huge difference between thinking you know what to expect and actually living it. Every expecting parent is warned by their peers that parenthood is hard - the days are long, you’re sleep deprived, your marriage takes a toll. And yet people continue to have children because they always think they can handle it, which most can, but it’s still a huge shock to your system to actually be surviving parenthood. 

And I think that’s Harry and Meghan right now - they’re desperately trying to survive so they keep throwing things at the wall and hope one will stick. They seem very lost to me. 

[tabitha2]

They made their choice now they have to deal with consequences of their choice as we all do. No sympathy here. 

[Melbelle]

So just my wild theory, but I think Harry very much tried to shield the truth of life within the Family from Meghan.  Personally, I believe that Chelsy Davy was "the one" for Harry, both in his mind and likely in reality as well.  However, it seems that she did not like the public scrutiny that came from dating him.  I'm sure there were additional issues within their personal relationship, and perhaps she knows better than anyone how much help he really needed to deal with his mother's death, his military service, any grievances he had with being the spare, etc.  But I think, hindsight being 20/20, what would have been perfect for him, would have been for him to be with her and choose to step back from most Royal duties and live a quieter life with her.  When one views her social media, even today, you can see that she really is living the life that Harry seems to have wanted.  She's mostly in Africa, but comes to the UK often.  She's well liked and well immersed within the aristocratic circles and clearly is friendly with his core group of friends and William and Catherine. I'm guessing that Charles and his family would not have encouraged him to step back years ago when he was dating her, because Charles version of a slimmed down monarchy needed Harry and family to be active, so the perfect scenario with Chelsy was never really available, but I think it was the most natural fit for Harry's actual personality.  

Back to Meghan, I think he learned that Chelsy (and Cressida) didn't love the scrutiny and perhaps some of the trappings of the roles as well, so he kept as much of that from her as he could.  However, I don't believe Meghan is naive at all and I'm certain she was absolutely aware of the scrutiny that would be coming her way from the public.  She may not have been aware of how the Family worked though and I suspect Harry wasn't too keen on giving her the full scoop on that because he didn't want to lose another relationship.  

[DalmatianCat]

1 hour ago, Melbelle said:

So just my wild theory, but I think Harry very much tried to shield the truth of life within the Family from Meghan.  Personally, I believe that Chelsy Davy was "the one" for Harry, both in his mind and likely in reality as well.  However, it seems that she did not like the public scrutiny that came from dating him.  I'm sure there were additional issues within their personal relationship, and perhaps she knows better than anyone how much help he really needed to deal with his mother's death, his military service, any grievances he had with being the spare, etc.  But I think, hindsight being 20/20, what would have been perfect for him, would have been for him to be with her and choose to step back from most Royal duties and live a quieter life with her.  When one views her social media, even today, you can see that she really is living the life that Harry seems to have wanted.  She's mostly in Africa, but comes to the UK often.  She's well liked and well immersed within the aristocratic circles and clearly is friendly with his core group of friends and William and Catherine. 

I’ve always wondered if Chelsy would be Harry‘s Camilla. I’m not at all saying I think he and Meghan would be unfaithful to each other, but if their marriage comes to a mutual, amicable end, I can see Chelsy being the one he finds his way back to.

[viii]

Harry and Chelsy were such a good fit. I don't think Chelsy would go near him now, though. She seems too sensible for that. 

I think Meghan was aware of the scrutiny that would come her way from the public. She even said she expected it because she was the *new* one, but didn't expect it to be so racially motivated, which I can respect. The UK public has been ruthless towards her because of her skin color and the media hasn't been too great, either. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, viii said:

Harry and Chelsy were such a good fit. I don't think Chelsy would go near him now, though. She seems too sensible for that. 

I think Meghan was aware of the scrutiny that would come her way from the public. She even said she expected it because she was the *new* one, but didn't expect it to be so racially motivated, which I can respect. The UK public has been ruthless towards her because of her skin color and the media hasn't been too great, either. 

She had to have known.  I know she said she didn't google him, but that's insane.   Before reading these threads I knew only the most superficial stuff about the BRF but even I knew how brutal the tabloids were to these people.  I remember feeling sorry for Fergie back in the day because of how much flack she got for her looks, it's not a secret that it's very high profile life lived in a fishbowl.  

[viii]

Yeah, I will never believe that Meghan didn't know about the family. I could understand that maybe she didn't google extensively about him, but Meghan is only a few years older than myself - the height of the royal family was everywhere in the 90's. Maybe if you were a sheltered kid that didn't have access to news or tabloids, I could believe it, but Meghan grew up with a dad in the celebrity business. There's no way the royal family wasn't discussed. I just don't buy it. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

7 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

They made their choice now they have to deal with consequences of their choice as we all do. No sympathy here. 

Seriously.  They aren't the only people who have to adjust expectations when life doesn't turn out the way you planned.  

Almost everyone has to deal with that, but with a lot less money, help, and options as we redirect and figure out where to go from here.

I would have all the sympathy in the world for him if he were complaining about his life to a therapist.  It's okay to have childish knee jerk responses due to trauma and seek help to resolve your issues in a healthy way.  That's very different than acting as if your unhealthy responses are appropriate and expecting the world to cater to them.  

 If he truly believes they are in grave physical danger and that the BRF has no concern whatsoever for their safety that's pretty scary and he really needs to talk to a professional.  If he knows they're in no more danger than any other other royal and he's stomping his feet like a petulant child in order to manipulate the situation then he needs to grow up.  

Edited January 18, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[EmCatlyn]

19 minutes ago, viii said:

Harry and Chelsy were such a good fit. I don't think Chelsy would go near him now, though. She seems too sensible for that. 

I think Meghan was aware of the scrutiny that would come her way from the public. She even said she expected it because she was the *new* one, but didn't expect it to be so racially motivated, which I can respect. The UK public has been ruthless towards her because of her skin color and the media hasn't been too great, either. 

I think Meghan, unlike Chelsy and Cressida, was in the business of living in the public’s eye, and both Harry and Meghan herself may have thought this gave her an advantage when handling media scrutiny. (She was, in other words, already in a profession where the tabloids will take an interest. She presumably had experience dealing with the press.) 

Anyone that Harry married would have faced a ruthless press.  Kate Middleton had no picnic.  As an American as well as a bi-racial person with a personal “past,” Meghan was not going to be treated gently.

It is probably true that Meghan thought she could handle becoming a royal better than it turned out she could.  The analogy with the false confidence with which many of us enter parenthood is good.  That being said, most of us don’t just decide we will only be part-time parents or trade in our kids for different models when being a parent is too difficult. (Some of us may wish we could, but generally we don’t get to do it, though for some people, boarding school is an option.) 

I don’t fault Meghan for having mistaken her ability to handle the royal life she initially thought she would embrace.  What I fault both Meghan and Harry for is the way they have handled their exit. For people who claim to hate media scrutiny they are always doing things or saying things that are sure to get media attention.

[MomJeans]

I think Harry and Meghan share a trait that made their roles as working royals miserable for them:  they both obsess over anything negative said about them. (i.e. Who made whom cry at the stupid wedding fitting).

I'm not saying it's fair what the tabloids do- it's low-balling trash.  No one equates The Sun with The Times for a reason. But I think the royals who are able to survive it with their contentment intact are able to compartmentalize between the good and the bad.  Camilla is reputed for being a master at ignoring the tabloids. 

Harry was known to be obsessed with bad press before he ever met Meghan.  But he didn't air his grievances publicly, or someone kept him in check. (my guess, #2).  My point is, it didn't start with Meghan.

I was back and forth to London about 10 times for work between the engagement and the wedding, and the legitimate press that was not anti-monarchy loved them (sorry, no royal is ever going to win over The Guardian).  The morning show hosts loved them.  It was "Meghan is a breath of fresh air" and "The new power couple of the 21st century".  Everyone I worked with was all "Hey, we're getting an American princess!"  As a royal watcher, I miss those days.  

It's unfortunate to me that they want to stay in the spotlight so much.  Though they live of a life of privilege I can only imagine, I take zero pleasure in seeing them upset all the time.  And their attacks on the press, though legally permissible, just ensure that the tabloids will never treat them neutrally.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Pure hypothetical as we all know this will never happen, but what if H & M did believe that quitting was a mistake and they admitted that to the family and asked to be reinstated, on the family's terms.

I mean an actual honest come to Jesus conversation about how they thought this would work, it hasn't, he realizes he can do more for charity within the old system than on their own, etc. and apologizes for the errors in judgement.  Says they want come back be working royals in whatever capacity the family deems appropriate.  No special treatment.  

Would they take them back?  

And I'm not wishing ill will on their marriage, but if he were to find himself no longer married to Meghan down the road would they take him back?  

Just curious as to what your thoughts are.  I find the family dynamic far more interesting than the rules.

[MomJeans]

I think Charles would try to take them back if H&M could completely extricate themselves from their many financial endeavors (doubtful), and under very strict terms that they would balk at.  (You will only be doing these types of very boring events, you will not have your own spokespersons, and every single communication you have with the press, on or off the record, is approved in advance by Buckingham Palace or Clarence House.  Basically, it would be a future of opening canneries and factories, with an occasional state dinner thrown in for good behavior.)

Deep down, I think Charles would move Heaven and Earth to have Harry and his family back, but the people he listens to would see H&M as a liability to the monarchy, and Charles would try to work out a compromise. We know Harry doesn't do compromises. 

However, William holds grudges, and William is unforgiving when it comes to attacks on his wife.  I actually think Kate would be willing to make it work, but not William.  And William will also be King someday.  His influence over his father and grandmother only grows.  I don't think William would ever be agreeable to the H&M re-entering the fold as working royals.  To him, the deal is done, and now everyone has to live with it.  

If H&M divorce (which I'm not predicting)- Harry can't move back to the U.K. full time.  His kids will be in California.  I also don't see him getting a full-time role back because any divorce would likely cause an avalanche of bad press against Harry, and Charles, and William.  (How many secrets has Harry spilled to Meghan? My guess- everything.  Plus the Oprah Interview replayed and replayed and replayed).  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

I think Charles would try to take them back if H&M could completely extricate themselves from their many financial endeavors (doubtful), and under very strict terms that they would balk at.  (You will only be doing these types of very boring events, you will not have your own spokespersons, and every single communication you have with the press, on or off the record, is approved in advance by Buckingham Palace or Clarence House.  Basically, it would be a future of opening canneries and factories, with an occasional state dinner thrown in for good behavior.)

Deep down, I think Charles would move Heaven and Earth to have Harry and his family back, but the people he listens to would see H&M as a liability to the monarchy, and Charles would try to work out a compromise. We know Harry doesn't do compromises. 

However, William holds grudges, and William is unforgiving when it comes to attacks on his wife.  I actually think Kate would be willing to make it work, but not William.  And William will also be King someday.  His influence over his father and grandmother only grows.  I don't think William would ever be agreeable to the H&M re-entering the fold as working royals.  To him, the deal is done, and now everyone has to live with it.  

If H&M divorce (which I'm not predicting)- Harry can't move back to the U.K. full time.  His kids will be in California.  I also don't see him getting a full-time role back because any divorce would likely cause an avalanche of bad press against Harry, and Charles, and William.  (How many secrets has Harry spilled to Meghan? My guess- everything.  Plus the Oprah Interview replayed and replayed and replayed).  

That is a really interesting take.  I'm not predicting a divorce either, but I didn't think about the trouble that would cause should it happen and if she got vindictive and started to spill secrets.  

Fwiw I hope at some point Harry can repair his relationships with his dad and brother.  Both for himself and also so his kids don't grow up estranged by proxy from their family.  I don't pretend to know the specifics of their issues but if there is love there and if they can manage a relationship that's not toxic for any of them I hope they do.  

[Melbelle]

I think Harry would be welcomed back, if he would come back quietly, accept some good quality therapy, and essentially retire to a country estate, only to be seen at the occasional special event when all the family turns out. William definitely holds grudges, but I do believe he would accept his brother back into the fold with a sincere apology from him.  (If Meghan would agree to complete retirement to a country estate with no public persona whatsoever, they would let her join him because of the children.)  However, I do not think Meghan would be welcomed back for any Royal role ever.  I think the Oprah interview reflects so poorly on her, it is so full of mistruths and obfuscations that both the Royals and their advisors just would not allow her to represent them formally in any way, ever.  

I do wonder about the children and where they would live in the event of a divorce.  I wonder if there's a custody agreement already in place that would be enacted in the event of a divorce?  I have to imagine there is a serious pre-nuptial agreement for these two.  After the divorces of Charles and Andrew, the advisors had to have planned for these possibilities with William and Harry at least, and likely with any of the more inner circle of family members.  The pre-nup might even include some agreements about what, if anything, Meghan could say about Harry and family in the event of a divorce.  Perhaps it's already stated that in the event of a divorce the children must be raised in the UK?  Or they must attend schools from a pre-approved list that are located in the UK?  If I've thought of these preventative measures, the royal advisors certainly must of, right?  Are pre-nups even a thing in the UK?  

[MomJeans]

Prenups are technically not binding in the U.K. They can be filed with the court during divorce proceedings, and Judges can view them and take them into account.  Most Judges will honor them if the terms appear fair and unbiased.  Disparity in bargaining power at the time of the agreement is often raised as a reason to not honor a prenup. The general word on the street: you should have a prenup, but don't assume it's going to be followed, especially if it gives too much to one person. 

There was a lot discussion in the legitimate press that William refused to have Kate sign a prenup. It's unproven, but reported enough that I think it is accurate.

As for Harry and Meghan, personally, I think Harry would have seen it as his family believing his marriage would fail.  So I personally doubt a prenup was entered into, though I doubt Charles' lawyers didn't make an attempt.

I guess it's a situation of "we shall see" but I really actually hope we don't see, and we remain ignorant. 

*You will hear that the Monarch has automatic guardianship of her grandchildren.  There are some archaic laws on the old books about the Monarch having guardianship of all children and grandchildren, but there is no way Charles or the Queen would ever invoke it.  And the Hague Convention comes into play too.

 

[Giraffe]

Purely speculation but H & M seem like that couple who everyone can see they clearly despise each other but can never “quit” each other, either. Like @SweetJuly said, they seem to bring out the worst in each other. 

[MomJeans]

31 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

That is a really interesting take.  I'm not predicting a divorce either, but I didn't think about the trouble that would cause should it happen and if she got vindictive and started to spill secrets.  

Fwiw I hope at some point Harry can repair his relationships with his dad and brother.  Both for himself and also so his kids don't grow up estranged by proxy from their family.  I don't pretend to know the specifics of their issues but if there is love there and if they can manage a relationship that's not toxic for any of them I hope they do.  

Re Divorce: During the Oprah interview, and in Scobie's book, it was said that the Royal Family was telling people that they were hoping that Harry would come back alone (divorced). 

And I think that was likely untrue BS, because I think the Royal Family has learned just how poorly divorces play out for them, and have enough lawyers to also know that Archie couldn't just simply move back with Harry.  Obviously I can't prove it, but I think the Family thinks the exact opposite: as bad as things are, a divorce would be a million times worse for every single one of them.  

And divorces bring out the worst in all people.  I met my husband while he was divorcing.  I was as unhappy with some of his behavior as I was with his ex-wife (who I am now friends with).

It would be a blood bath.  But the tabloids and lawyers would make soooooo much money.

(I too truly hope that there can be a reconciliation, it's a hard way to go through life otherwise.  I know Charles made mistakes- to put it lightly, but I do think he loves Harry very much.)

[Lollipopgirl]

I think it’s worth mentioning that should Harry and Meghan divorce in a few years time then it’s quite possible that the Queen will have died and Charles will be King. I suspect it would be far easier for Harry to return to the royal family under those circumstances. I believe Charles loves him and would do everything he could to facilitate his return.