Remnant Fellowship 18: The Irony of the Possibly Overweight Plane

[RFfamANON]

47 minutes ago, RFFriend said:

I get it.  Brings to mind the phrase "wolf in sheep's clothing".  On the surface, everything looks good, but underneath it is a different story.

Exactly!  I saw a quote on Twitter the other day that a wolf in sheep’s clothing is bad but a wolf in shepherds clothing is evil. It made me think of Gwen and the leaders from RF

 

47 minutes ago, RFFriend said:

I think the main reason that it comes across as good at times is that they take some real truths and emphasize that, but then it is taken to an extreme and becomes unhealthy.  I think it is easy to see the "good" and miss the extremes because those aren't as apparent.

 

This is hard to get your head around give yourself time. My family has been in RF for a long time and it is easy to say well at least they are in a good place. Which is true until they aren’t ok or have a mental health problem or lose their job. It’s all good until it’s not good. I have seen people banished and their name never mentioned again because of some infraction of the Gwen gospel.  I can’t give details here because it would def reveal who I am and I’m not willing for that to happen. 

  I was never able to decide if Gwen really believed or if she knew what she was doing. But when you take on the role of preacher you have a a huge responsibility to try to get it right. I don’t think she tried hard enough to get it right. I never saw true humility in her seeking Gods guidance and I have seen a lot of twisted thinking around scripture taken completely out of context. 

I encourage you to keep working at wrapping your head around all of it. I ended up praying a lot and have come to a place of peace around my family being a part of it. but I have repeatedly seen very distorted theology around some key issues for me in my life so I could never be a part of them (struggling with church in general really). But I don’t believe that the members of remnant are bad people. I believe they are being mis-led by some leaders who are high on power and control  

This of course is all just my opinion.  I encourage you to reach your own conclusions. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by RFfamANON

[RFFriend]

1 hour ago, RFfamANON said:

This is hard to get your head around give yourself time. My family has been in RF for a long time and it is easy to say well at least they are in a good place. Which is true until they aren’t ok or have a mental health problem or lose their job. It’s all good until it’s not good. I have seen people banished and their name never mentioned again because of some infraction of the Gwen gospel.  I can’t give details here because it would def reveal who I am and I’m not willing for that to happen. 

I know my people would be devastated to be banished as this is their whole world.  They also are very submissive and far from leadership so I think that might have kept them in the dark to some of the bad things.  And I don't think anything has happened that would make them stand out as bad in the RF world (job loss, mental health issues, etc.)   But, they all seem geniunely happy and I have seen so many lies about RF that it makes me question everything.  Maybe they are on the fringes, not in leadership, so they are genuinely happy because they are not caught up in the inner workings of RF and what goes down there is kept from people?

I am curious as to what will happen in this power vaccuum.  Seems like Gwen and David were the biggest leaders keeping everything in check.  But, I don't know any of the others except by name.

[SayonaraLara]

3 hours ago, rabbitholejulie said:

And another question, why did the Gwen and Joe show stop?  Were they out of stupid things to talk about?

Good question, and not sure. I said this a while back, so sorry to repeat: All I remember is that a maybe a couple weeks or months before the crash, a shepherd had prayed before a service for God’s leading with the direction/future of “Life with Gwen and Joe.” And that maybe the plane crash was the answer to that prayer.

I always figured Joe just had enough of it, checked out and wouldn’t comply. It seemed over time his enthusiasm to participate diminished, and he didn’t seem as publicly present toward the end. The second to last video was one of the cringiest with a loud and embarrassing Gwen, clearly tipsy (see wine glasses In photos) with a case of the crazy eyes and dancing ridiculously.

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by SayonaraLara

[SayonaraLara]

And re: Life with Gwen and Joe, their production company was JL & GL Productions, which the plane was registered to. In their company, which was formed in March of 2019, Joe was removed as an officer and replaced by Gwen in May of 2020 for whatever reason.

https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_tn/001016417

[Sarcastically spinster]

It's important to remember that cults are fundamentally an abusive relationship like any other, and so all the same characteristics still apply.  

So some of those things: 

- there are innocent victims, and there are perpetrators.  The majority of people you encounter are victims, not perpetrators.  Additionally, abusers/perpetrators aren't going to show their control to anyone except the victims.  They suck you in with lovebombing, and the true colors show much later.  You're going to typically find that victims - regular members - are lovely, trusting, warm, welcoming, generous people.  That's often why they get targeted and how they get sucked in.  

- as long as you comply, things usually seem pretty good.  They build control like a frog in a pot of water.  Many people probably are relatively happy and just have vague senses of things being a little odd in a couple of places.  It's as soon as you don't comply any more that you find out how hot the water is - and that failure to comply can be either your own doing, or someone else's.

- just like seeing an abusive marriage, those on the outside are unlikely to see it, unless they're get close in.  They may catch a few things that seem off, but the abuse happens behind closed doors.  You're not going to see abuse actively happening.  

- most people probably actually aren't being actively abused in a significant way.  They're more likely being groomed.  The line between grooming and abuse is blurred, for sure, but most people in that large of a group probably aren't experiencing much more than being trained to comply, not question, be brainwashed, etc.  

- abusers don't abuse everyone.  They target specific people.  

- any abusive relationship cycles.  They go through times of lovebombing again, alternating with the abuse.  It's not all bad all the time, or people would leave.  It's more the mindset a friend of mine expressed before she finally left an abusive home.  "Sure, we fight sometimes, but we're family and we all love each other."  And they're taught to distrust outsiders - they're never going to voice even that "sure, we fight sometimes" to an outsider until their doubts are serious.  They're just going to give you the "we're family and we all love each other."  

- sometimes one of the warning signs of abuse is that things are *too* perfect to the outsider.  A real, honest relationship, church, family, is going to have its ugly spots, its fractures, its conflicts that have to be worked out.  A relationship where those can't be seen is one that is hiding things.  One where image to outsiders is given a high importance.  

 

So if you're struggling to reconcile what you see from RF with what you're reading on this thread, that's actually very normal.  That dissonance is typical in abuse situations.  Many, many abusive people are pillars of their communities, and when things come out, people are shocked because they seemed like such a wonderful, happy family and the abuser was such a nice person, etc.  That's the norm, not the exception.  You're seeing that public front.  The ugly realities are much more hidden, and so easy to miss unless either you're personally experiencing them, or else you know the signs to spot what you aren't actually seeing.  

[formergothardite]

My impression was that Joe looked so miserable in those videos that even Gwen couldn’t help but notice. When they did live videos sometimes Joe would basically talk over her, say things that didn’t match up with her teachings and it was clear it annoyed her. When they spoke together, it was glaringly obvious what a poor speaker Gwen was. In the live chats people would ask questions in the comments, Joe would actually be able to give a reply while Gwen would blabber on nonsense using only sentence fragments.

If I remember correctly they stopped the live chats shortly after Gwen slipped up and mentioned she had an issue with drinking too much. That part was promptly edited out, but someone must have realized Gwen shouldn’t be shown live to people outside the cult. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

My impression was that Joe looked so miserable in those videos that even Gwen couldn’t help but notice. When they did live videos sometimes Joe would basically talk over her, say things that didn’t match up with her teachings and it was clear it annoyed her. When they spoke together, it was glaringly obvious what a poor speaker Gwen was. In the live chats people would ask questions in the comments, Joe would actually be able to give a reply while Gwen would blabber on nonsense using only sentence fragments.

If I remember correctly they stopped the live chats shortly after Gwen slipped up and mentioned she had an issue with drinking too much. That part was promptly edited out, but someone must have realized Gwen shouldn’t be shown live to people outside the cult. 

I honestly would not have been surprised if they eventually led completely separate lives sort of like Dave and Gwen before the divorce. I don’t think this was a match made in Heaven. But I doubt she would divorce for a second time. I could see them living like business partners 5 years from now when the newness fully rubbed off. But they died before the marriage could fall apart. And that means it will always be remembered as the perfect marriage. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by JermajestyDuggar

[throwaway9988]

99% of the members in Remnant Fellowship are extremely kind, well-meaning people. However, the RF theology is ultimately severe and unforgiving, black and white with no shades of gray allowed.
 

I’m sorry that you (@RFFriend) had to experience how RF handles mental illnesses. RF ignores all scientific data and the standards of care of every professional organization of psychiatrists/psychologists/therapists/etcetera); from what ex-members have told me, RF essentially tells people to stop taking their psych meds and/or visiting their doctor/therapist, stop being self-focused or they will burn in Hell for that sin, and pray more and trust God more, and then every single mental illness will just magically go away. Obviously RF’s viewpoint on mental illnesses is ridiculous at best and harmful at worst.

 

In the many past RF threads, numerous ex-members have come forward to talk about abuse, eating disorders, unhealthy attitudes towards sex, and other issues they are dealing with due to RF’s theology. 
 

In just the past year, we have also seen the potential harms of RF’s antiscientific views during the pandemic; the extreme and borderline-conspiratorial political views that some of the leadership have pushed on members, leading some members to quit while other members get sucked into the conspiracies; and there was even a recent report of a leader preaching that racism doesn’t exist, which, if true, is another example of an obviously false and harmful belief. 
 

On the other hand, some of the rumors about RF are obviously false. RF members love to talk about how there were local rumors that the church steeple was actually some sort of antichristian upside-down cross, or how there were local rumors of some sort of Satanic worship going on in the church basement that somehow involved snakes or something. So RF members like to play a game where they ignore valid criticisms by pointing to a few certain examples of obviously-untrue rumors. And then they say things like just ignore the criticisms and look at “the fruit.” They then tell you how happy they are, how they are free from certain sins, and how all this “good fruit” is proof that RF’s theology must be true, since the bible says that only a good tree can bear good fruit. This is the trick that well-meaning RF members play on you (and themselves) to ignore all the valid criticisms of RF, and to ignore all of the many instances of “bad fruit” that RF has borne. 99% of the members  have good intentions and aren’t purposefully trying to lie to you or hide the bad fruit of RF from you; it’s just that Gwen taught them this trick to hide it all from themselves as well. 
 

A lot of broken people join RF because they are in a state where they are desperate for any program that promises them it will make them feel better, despite that the RF theology blames themselves, their sin, and their self-focus/self-care for any and all problems. On the other hand, a lot of people who aren’t broken join RF too; the average American (who is only mildly overweight, straight, and not too much of a stickler for the finer points of science/medicine/history/theology) could probably join RF and only experience seemingly-benign situations for months or even years. But then what happens when, over the years, that average American gains a few pounds instead of losing a few pounds? What happens if their child grows up to be gay? What happens if, through their job/education/other experiences, their eyes are opened to all of the valid shades of gray in the world that RF tries to erase or badly explain-away? Suddenly, RF’s theology will no longer seem so benign. 

Not everyone is in a situation where they can consistently have positive interactions with their friends and family members who are in RF, but it sounds like you are, and that’s great! As I said earlier, 99% of RF members are extremely kind people with only good intentions, and it’s not wrong if you enjoy hanging out with them. Some of them actually are happier in RF than they were before, but keep in mind that some of them may not actually be happy in RF but are forced to keep acting like they are, either because they are enslaved to RF’s teaching that everyone needs to be happy and out-of-self all the time or they will go to Hell, or because they are trapped in RF due to finances/relationships/underage/etc. You sound like you are in the habit of collecting information, thinking hard about it, and making up your own mind about things. So no matter what happens, just keep thinking for yourself. 

[MamaJunebug]

Hmm.... maybe it's my unenlightened state, but I never did see any "self-denial" in this video.  ATV's, hamburgers, drinks, nice clothes, a cute old restored house, check & check! ... self-denial? Nope.

Also, the refrain to the last song on the video: "I wonder why God ever let us fly." Hm.

[rabbitholejulie]

31 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

Hmm.... maybe it's my unenlightened state, but I never did see any "self-denial" in this video.  ATV's, hamburgers, drinks, nice clothes, a cute old restored house, check & check! ... self-denial? Nope.

Also, the refrain to the last song on the video: "I wonder why God ever let us fly." Hm.

We can guess why God let them fly...

Oh the video and the prayer, where to start- Gwen makes a clear delineation between "us" and "them".  "Us" is on the stage. 

The popular group enjoys showing off their exclusive invitation to the fun/"being in the center".  What Gwen is really saying in this video is,  "Here let's show those struggling sinners how they can be like us, the better people." 

In preaching, kingdom language should be used, ie. "we are all sinners"...like High School Musical, we're all in this together. 

Gwen also says, "come join us" but that isn't literal of course because only the inner circle can join Gwen.  Everyone else can be in their audience.

Gwen prayed to purge all self focus and selfishness so I guess God answered that prayer- He purged... 

OK enough of me.

1 minute ago, rabbitholejulie said:

We can guess why God let them fly...

Oh the video and the prayer, where to start- Gwen makes a clear delineation between "us" and "them".  "Us" is on the stage. 

The popular group enjoys showing off their exclusive invitation to the fun/"being in the center".  What Gwen is really saying in this video is,  "Here let's show those struggling sinners how they can be like us, the better people." 

In preaching, kingdom language should be used, ie. "we are all sinners"...like High School Musical, we're all in this together. 

Gwen also says, "come join us" but that isn't literal of course because only the inner circle can join Gwen.  Everyone else can be in their audience.

Gwen prayed to purge all self focus and selfishness so I guess God answered that prayer- He purged... 

OK enough of me.

It takes me right back to the popular group in high school...

[TDHuggies]

1 hour ago, rabbitholejulie said:

It takes me right back to the popular group in high school...

Your whole post but especially this quote…spot on. I’ve been trying to word what you said so well! As time went on this cult became more about an excuse to feel good about lording over/being popular/hierarchical social constructs…than it was about Doing God’s will. 

[SayonaraLara]

3 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Also, the refrain to the last song on the video: "I wonder why God ever let us fly." Hm.

I keep thinking how the flight theme was reoccurring for Gwen.

Gwen was obsessed with cardinals as a sign.

She was also obsessed with the Phoenix bird rising from the ash, and Michael also had a song about it.

Joe was (arguably) a pilot. (And maybe her father flew some too, I seem to recall her saying.)

She often talked about the law of gravity and flying above/rising above the pull of earthly things. Example from a post-mortem repeated June 21 devotional: I have broken free of the refrigerator’s magnetism, and it no longer exerts a gravitational pull on me. I am flying, and you can, too. Let’s imitate the pioneer pilots who reached their goals by setting their minds on what was NOT seen (their dreams of flying) rather than on what WAS seen (their skeptics and the early, inevitable failures). Sin is a rebellious attitude that does not want to submit. But the exciting truth is that you have everything you need to turn it around and be DONE WITH SIN! You can do it!

Most interesting ... early in her Exodus Out of Egypt: The Change series (from about 2005 maybe), she said how many people were scared to fly, and that it was an act of faith for her, as well. She said before flying each time she asked God “to pilot the jet.”

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by SayonaraLara

[NarcissismKills]

5 hours ago, throwaway9988 said:

99% of the members in Remnant Fellowship are extremely kind, well-meaning people. However, the RF theology is ultimately severe and unforgiving, black and white with no shades of gray allowed.

That 99% might be a rather high estimate, but all these points are interesting and throwaway9988's post is very thoughtful. Still, when individuals from the Remnant Fellowship cult pretend they are being helpful all the while they are actually spying on you under orders from their "Shepherd", that is truly not benign in any way. It's surprising how much these people are willing to do when told to. Neither illnesses in the family nor family holiday celebrations come close in importance to following orders at RF. Very sinister. 

[SayonaraLara]

For anyone thinking Elizabeth might be more moderate than Gwen, here’s an excerpt from a former almost-member on https://www.spiritwatch.org/remnantwatch.htm

Elizabeth would have been in her early 20s at the time.

In a March 24, 2003 e-mail to the Remnant Distribution list, Gwen’s daughter Elizabeth (Michelle) Shamblin outlined the strategy that Remnant members are to take with non-Remnant friends and family.  Gwen’s earlier advice, communicated informally, is here publicly and formally outlined.   Her advice is cultic and divisive in nature and is structured to keep Remnant members from being influenced by non-Remnant members.  She states:  

I think that many are still missing the point when it comes to dealing with those around us who DON’T believe what we believe.  Those people on the outside don’t understand, nor do they want to understand, that they have GOT to DO the will of the Father and get rid of ALL idols and greed in their hearts to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  If you have shown the TRUTH to someone and they have refused it, we have got to understand that they are no longer “sweet friends who unfortunately missed the mark . . .” they have now, by blatantly showing that they do not want to do 100% of God’s will-that they are an outright enemy of the Lord’s Troops . . . These people have had the chance to learn to lay their idols down but have refused to want to learn more . . .they have refused the very GOD of the universe-and so my friends, they are no friend of God’s, and therefore they are no friends of mine . . . My friends, we cannot win the world over by submitting to what it wants us to do! If that is how we were to win them over, we would have to indulge in what they want us to indulge in! 

However, we WILL be able to win some over by STANDING FIRM IN THE FAITH, AND NOT GIVING WAY TO FEAR! It is time to stand up, Remnant Nation.  It is time to stand up for what you believe in and stop hiding the God that you are so proud of!  Obviously in certain situations in which you have already warned someone of the wrath that is coming on the disobedient . . . if they have refused your knowledge-you dust your feet and move on to find more exiles-and you remain silent in their presence.  Remember, “Muzzle your mouth in front of the enemy . . .” and “Do not throw pearls before swine.”   However-if you are in constant contact with the enemy . . .as it says, “a man’s enemies are the members of his own household” – if you ARE in daily contact with people who constantly try to get you away from the Fellowship-you have GOT to stand FIRM! Stand up for what you believe in! Do you mean to tell me that if the unbeliever told you to commit adultery that you would submit to that in order for peace? OF COURSE YOU WOULDN’T!!! 

So-when the unbeliever tells you to forsake the assembly-which is a command of God to NOT forsake-that you would do it for the sake of men? Stand up, men and women, for what you believe in!! And do not fear mortal men that cannot save or harm you.  Men of earth are powerless against the God that created them all.  Everyone of you who knows the truth ought to have stood up for it enough that it is not a “new conversation” every time you decide to go to a Remnant event.  Nor should it be odd for you to take your children to worship with you.  Your family and friends should know by now that meeting with the saints is top priority- for you feel it is the will of God.  (Any of you having trouble with standing up for this should call in to Leadership and they can help walk you through the steps in order to be SET FREE from the oppressor.)

[ElleHouston]

15 minutes ago, SayonaraLara said:

For anyone thinking Elizabeth might be more moderate than Gwen, here’s an excerpt from a former almost-member on https://www.spiritwatch.org/remnantwatch.htm

Elizabeth would have been in her early 20s at the time.

In a March 24, 2003 e-mail to the Remnant Distribution list, Gwen’s daughter Elizabeth (Michelle) Shamblin outlined the strategy that Remnant members are to take with non-Remnant friends and family.  Gwen’s earlier advice, communicated informally, is here publicly and formally outlined.   Her advice is cultic and divisive in nature and is structured to keep Remnant members from being influenced by non-Remnant members.  She states:  

I think that many are still missing the point when it comes to dealing with those around us who DON’T believe what we believe.  Those people on the outside don’t understand, nor do they want to understand, that they have GOT to DO the will of the Father and get rid of ALL idols and greed in their hearts to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  If you have shown the TRUTH to someone and they have refused it, we have got to understand that they are no longer “sweet friends who unfortunately missed the mark . . .” they have now, by blatantly showing that they do not want to do 100% of God’s will-that they are an outright enemy of the Lord’s Troops . . . These people have had the chance to learn to lay their idols down but have refused to want to learn more . . .they have refused the very GOD of the universe-and so my friends, they are no friend of God’s, and therefore they are no friends of mine . . . My friends, we cannot win the world over by submitting to what it wants us to do! If that is how we were to win them over, we would have to indulge in what they want us to indulge in! 

However, we WILL be able to win some over by STANDING FIRM IN THE FAITH, AND NOT GIVING WAY TO FEAR! It is time to stand up, Remnant Nation.  It is time to stand up for what you believe in and stop hiding the God that you are so proud of!  Obviously in certain situations in which you have already warned someone of the wrath that is coming on the disobedient . . . if they have refused your knowledge-you dust your feet and move on to find more exiles-and you remain silent in their presence.  Remember, “Muzzle your mouth in front of the enemy . . .” and “Do not throw pearls before swine.”   However-if you are in constant contact with the enemy . . .as it says, “a man’s enemies are the members of his own household” – if you ARE in daily contact with people who constantly try to get you away from the Fellowship-you have GOT to stand FIRM! Stand up for what you believe in! Do you mean to tell me that if the unbeliever told you to commit adultery that you would submit to that in order for peace? OF COURSE YOU WOULDN’T!!! 

So-when the unbeliever tells you to forsake the assembly-which is a command of God to NOT forsake-that you would do it for the sake of men? Stand up, men and women, for what you believe in!! And do not fear mortal men that cannot save or harm you.  Men of earth are powerless against the God that created them all.  Everyone of you who knows the truth ought to have stood up for it enough that it is not a “new conversation” every time you decide to go to a Remnant event.  Nor should it be odd for you to take your children to worship with you.  Your family and friends should know by now that meeting with the saints is top priority- for you feel it is the will of God.  (Any of you having trouble with standing up for this should call in to Leadership and they can help walk you through the steps in order to be SET FREE from the oppressor.)

She’s sounds EXACTLY like her mother. This is not Michelle at all (I call her Michelle because that’s her name)

[ManyGoats]

15 minutes ago, NarcissismKills said:

Neither illnesses in the family nor family holiday celebrations come close in importance to following orders at RF. Very sinister. 

 

5 minutes ago, SayonaraLara said:

For anyone thinking Elizabeth might be more moderate than Gwen, here’s an excerpt from a former almost-member on https://www.spiritwatch.org/remnantwatch.htm

 On today's webcast they played a repeat sermon of Gwen's which was all about being 'under authority.' In the follow-up remarks, the speaker stated that, though we know Ms. Gwen wrote this several years ago, "It was Ms. Elizabeth's lead that we would hear this again this year." She also reiterated Gwen's message that you're not to say anything bad about anybody 'over' you.

 

3 minutes ago, ElleHouston said:

This is not Michelle at all (I call her Michelle because that’s her name)

Do you mean Gwen's the one who actually wrote it?

[ElleHouston]

16 minutes ago, ManyGoats said:

 

 On today's webcast they played a repeat sermon of Gwen's which was all about being 'under authority.' In the follow-up remarks, the speaker stated that, though we know Ms. Gwen wrote this several years ago, "It was Ms. Elizabeth's lead that we would hear this again this year." She also reiterated Gwen's message that you're not to say anything bad about anybody 'over' you.

 

Do you mean Gwen's the one who actually wrote it?

Or she’s been trained under her mom for so long that she’s starting to sound like her. 

[Howl]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

If I remember correctly they stopped the live chats shortly after Gwen slipped up and mentioned she had an issue with drinking too much.

I'm getting an impression that Gwen may have been an alcoholic or on the way to being one. 

[throwaway9988]

1 hour ago, NarcissismKills said:

That 99% might be a rather high estimate, but all these points are interesting and throwaway9988's post is very thoughtful. Still, when individuals from the Remnant Fellowship cult pretend they are being helpful all the while they are actually spying on you under orders from their "Shepherd", that is truly not benign in any way. It's surprising how much these people are willing to do when told to. Neither illnesses in the family nor family holiday celebrations come close in importance to following orders at RF. Very sinister. 

? I probably shouldn’t have thrown a number out there. I do think most of the RF members are well-meaning, but that’s what’s so sick about the RF theology: the members can be well-meaning and claim they are showing you love all while treating you like garbage. Any person who spied on you was probably telling themselves that it was for your own good (rather than to make them feel superior or to help them suck up to leadership). To them, ultimately nothing else matters except your soul being saved through joining the Remnant and purging your heart of any and all things that RF considers sins. Everything else is a secondary consideration. Although they would prefer to accomplish their goal with lovebombing and with both parties constantly giving each other sickly-sweet smiles, if the end is your soul in heaven for eternity, then any earthly means are justified. So despite how well-meaning they are, this is ultimately what leads to a lot of conflict. And RF members are proud of the conflict. They will quote Matthew 10:34-36 at you all day long.
 

My parents definitely love their religious idea of my soul (I dont believe in souls or christianity or any of it) living forever in heaven with Jesus and his beard and sandals and whatever more than they actually love me as a person who has his own thoughts, feelings, experiences, and education. If you asked them, they would probably say that any beatings my mom gave me were done out of desperation to get me to lay down sins in my heart. Her weekly threats to pull me out of school and make me homeless were supposedly only to impress upon me the consequences of not laying down sins, because any consequences on earth are better than burning in Hell. Even though most people on earth would look with horror upon a mother who prayed for all manner of bad things to happen to her son in order to humble his heart and make him susceptible to the teachings of Gwen’s cult, my parents truly believe that they were just doing the hard things that needed to be done, and that they were lovingly trying to guide their stubborn child away from Hell. They truly believe they were loving parents after joining the Remnant, when in reality they created a home environment where I felt constantly stressed and like I needed to stay away from them as much as possible. The meaning of “the road to Hell is paved with good intentions” seems entirely lost on them.  Even though everyone else only ever saw the lovebombing side of them, I do think they are well-meaning (they were always very prayerful and careful to do what they thought God wanted them to do for my entire life even before they found RF) and they earnestly believe the things that Gwen and the other leaders brainwashed them with. That’s why I ultimately had to cut off all contact with them. They’ll always think that they treated me with true love for my eternal soul (Gwen’s definition of love), and I’ll always know that their idea of love can seem nice on the surface but is ultimately toxic, and I’ll always know that they love their idiotic RF beliefs more than they love their actual son. It’s irreconcilable. There’s no way to move forward with that as a starting point. I still think they are well-meaning, just also tragically wrong.
 

I still think most RF members are people who are kinder than average and mostly wish for themselves and their families to live forever in heaven together. So I think it is a testament to RF’s sick theology that it can cause such generally nice people to sometimes behave poorly towards others in the name of “love.” If someone has friends or family in RF, I’m sure they are really nice and fun to hang out with. Until a conflict with their theology comes up, and then suddenly, they might not be. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by throwaway9988

[MamaJunebug]

1 hour ago, ElleHouston said:

She’s sounds EXACTLY like her mother. This is not Michelle at all (I call her Michelle because that’s her name)

So you think Gwen wrote it snd attributed it to her daughter?  If so, basic “kingmaker” move! And early on! 

[Howl]

1 hour ago, ManyGoats said:

On today's webcast they played a repeat sermon of Gwen's which was all about being 'under authority.' In the follow-up remarks, the speaker stated that, though we know Ms. Gwen wrote this several years ago, "It was Ms. Elizabeth's lead that we would hear this again this year." She also reiterated Gwen's message that you're not to say anything bad about anybody 'over' you.

Huge red flag and a clear indication that the entity is authoritarian in nature.  

[RFsurvivor]

1 hour ago, ElleHouston said:

She’s sounds EXACTLY like her mother. This is not Michelle at all (I call her Michelle because that’s her name)

I’m not sure what time period you knew her or how close, but this sounds very much like Liz to me. I was on the receiving end of a lot of youth talks by her and emails out to the youth. She has been public ally parroting Gwen for as long as I knew her…maybe on a personal level she was less of a Gwen parrot. I never really got to know her well on a personal level

[Blue]

13 hours ago, RFFriend said:

I get it.  Brings to mind the phrase "wolf in sheep's clothing".  On the surface, everything looks good, but underneath it is a different story.

It's hard for me to get my arm's around it all.  My "friend" is actually a combination of a bunch of people in my life that are in RF.  Some of the closest people to me.  I've tried to be vague to hide my identity if they ever come read this, but I'm not sure that I've been so successful.  I feel the need to talk about it with people who understand, but know that it would hurt them if they found out I was posting on here.  One of the biggest things that have kept me out of this is Gwen herself, but it is also some things the church taught, specifically around mental illness.  I have someone in my life with a severe mental illness and thanks to Gwen's teaching, I didn't get the support that I needed from my "friend" in this situation.  She taught that it is all spiritual and I have been told that this person just needs to get right with God.  It has been confusing for me as I have had to come to terms with this person's illness and my own understanding of it.  But, I have seen the effects of the medication and think I finally have my own head on straight as far as the truth about mental illness.  

I hear a lot about RF and what is going on because they are always telling me in hopes that I will join them.  So, that's how I know things... at least what they believe to be true.

I think the main reason that it comes across as good at times is that they take some real truths and emphasize that, but then it is taken to an extreme and becomes unhealthy.  I think it is easy to see the "good" and miss the extremes because those aren't as apparent.

Anyway, if you can't tell, I'm just here trying to process how I feel about all of this.

I don't know Elizabeth at all, but from the outside looking in, it seems to me that she has drunk the kool-aid for so long that she believes it herself.  But, who knows, maybe she is just playing a part.

I got the feeling that Gwen really believed her garbage, but maybe Elizabeth won't believe it as whole-heartedly and there will be an opportunity for some change.  One can hope.

I had a long reply written out, but honestly, the others have responded so perfectly. Everyone, including you, are correct - most people in RF are kind and loving people. Even when they're doing manipulative things, I believe they have often been horribly manipulated themselves into truly believe with their entire heart that they're doing God's will.

You are correct that you've heard lies about RF that make you wonder what's lie and what's truth... and it's such a horrible position to be in. When we were introduced to RF over a decade ago through family, it was hard to know what was true, what was false, and what was so crazy that you'd THINK it would be false, but was true. And yes, there are a lot of good truths that they preach - those are what our family throw in our faces all the time. If I have to heard "the fruit" one more time I might be sick... because at the end of the day... you can have some truly beautiful fruit, but if you store it in a rotten basket, the fruit is going to rot too.

I went through a very long and difficult processing phase, that included at one point thinking that maybe I was wrong and maybe they were right because their lives were so perfect and wonderful. I'm truly thankful that I snapped out of it and was shown more of the truth behind the façade. It's tough, no doubt.

[RFfamANON]

10 hours ago, throwaway9988 said:

and I’ll always know that their idea of love can seem nice on the surface but is ultimately toxic, and I’ll always know that they love their idiotic RF beliefs more than they love their actual son

This is why I hate RF!  abuse behind a smile is still abuse.  Abuse disguised as love is still abuse. Abuse is abuse and it’s infuriating that they continue to get away with espousing “beliefs” that promote it  

@throwaway9988 Your story is heartbreaking and unfortunately I think it is systemic in RF. I believe that my family members are likely treating their children the way you have been treated and I feel helpless to do anything about it.  

Thank you for sharing the truth here. It’s very brave of you to share it. I respect you immensely for doing so. Your story deserves to be told. You deserved to be treated better than you were as a child. Even if they did it “out of love”. They were wrong! You matter more than some stupid “church” rules. I don’t care how strong willed you are/were your parents were/are wrong.  It seems like you are doing well despite the abuse that you endured and you probably have a great support network but if you ever want to talk you can DM me. The trauma response is real and deep. I’m mot an expert but I’m a great listener. 

[Sarcastically spinster]

13 hours ago, SayonaraLara said:

Elizabeth would have been in her early 20s at the time.

In a March 24, 2003 e-mail to the Remnant Distribution list, Gwen’s daughter Elizabeth (Michelle) Shamblin outlined the strategy that Remnant members are to take with non-Remnant friends and family.  Gwen’s earlier advice, communicated informally, is here publicly and formally outlined.   Her advice is cultic and divisive in nature and is structured to keep Remnant members from being influenced by non-Remnant members.

I don't know that this proves that Elizabeth is going to be less moderate than her mom.  For one, this was 18 years ago.  A lot can change in a person's beliefs in 18 years, and if she was in her early 20s, she was around the age where I see a lot of people raised in these groups start to figure out what they think for themselves.  In that context, I could easily see her starting to disagree privately but toeing the line publicly to position herself as the next leader, etc.  

I wouldn't assume she's necessarily a true believer in the teachings - she may well just be in it for the power.  I think Gwen largely believed her own stuff, but often in these groups there are higher ups who don't actually believe any of it but go along with it for what they're getting out of it.  If Elizabeth isn't a true believer, she's going to be looking to maximize her power/control, and the teachings will just be the means to that end, and she's going to go with whatever teachings she thinks best fit that goal.  She may think rigid adherence to her sainted mother's teaching fits best, or she may think relaxing on some of the more extreme teachings will do that best for her.  

I think it's mostly a question of whether she's a true believer, or if she's someone who will say anything to gain power.