South Carolina Mother and Son Murdered

[ifosterkittens]

Thoughts on Buster's testimony?

[Antimony]

3 hours ago, ifosterkittens said:

Thoughts on Buster's testimony?

I don't think we got a lot but it was kind of wild to see Buster, who went to some amount of law school, walk right into a hearsay objection after the Defense and the Judge told him to not give a hearsay testimony. 

[TN-peach]

I don't know if Buster's testimony changed anything.

I thought that the Defense's expert was not very good.  He seemed to reach beyond his expertise. I don't trust his testimony about the sound or the phone.

[hoipolloi]

If these witnesses are the defense's "A" team, it doesn't look good for AM:

[TN-peach]

The current expert testifying is going to destroy SLED and the sloppy investigation.

[hoipolloi]

Started watching the Netflix production The Murdaugh Murders: A Southern Scandal. Interesting that itʻs running while AM's trial is underway. 

 

[TN-peach]

7 hours ago, TN-peach said:

The current expert testifying is going to destroy SLED and the sloppy investigation.

I was wrong.  The crime scene expert was disappointing.  I expected more, overall his testimony was rather tame.  He basically said the crime scene preservation was bad but probably the best they could do with that they have.

The law firm partner witness seemed to be more of a witness for the prosecution than the defense.  He called Alex "cunning" and stated that he obviously never really knew Alex. He almost said that he was torn on believing that Alex killed them but he seemed to hint that he thought that Alex might be guilty.

The question of the day/night is "is Alex going to testify?" I think he really wants to but his lawyers are begging him not to testify.  I think Alex thinks that he can talk himself out of this.  Afterall, his whole career is based on his people skills and his "charm."

2 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Started watching the Netflix production The Murdaugh Murders: A Southern Scandal. Interesting that itʻs running while AM's trial is underway. 

 

I am going to try to hold off on watching it until after the trial.  That way I can decide on what I think the verdict will be based on the information presented at trial.

[ifosterkittens]

2 hours ago, TN-peach said:

The question of the day/night is "is Alex going to testify?" I think he really wants to but his lawyers are begging him not to testify.  I think Alex thinks that he can talk himself out of this.  Afterall, his whole career is based on his people skills and his "charm."

I agree with all of this. While I'm sure Alex has talked his way out of sticky situations before this is different. He's no longer operating from a place of power, privilege, and respect. Alex does appear to adapt well to situations, he figured out how to work the system in jail and use other people's accounts to make phone calls etc so he is adaptable and talented, and maybe we will find out just how good he is. 

The jury has heard about Alex's financial crimes, the roadside shooting and how Alex's former friends and colleagues think he's good at reading people and charming them. The jury has more information than most people Alex dealt with in the past, and they are going to be on high alert thinking he could be out to save his own neck. It only takes one person to say not guilty and get a hung jury (presuming others vote guilty) and Alex may think he's sensed a juror he can sway his way and only he can convince them. 

I don't know what Buster's testimony was supposed to accomplish, but whatever the goal I don't think it happened. My guess is Buster was supposed to convey to the jury Alex was a loving devoted family man and could never ever in a million years kill his wife and son. Maybe Alex always wanted to testify, and after Buster's testimony he really feels it necessary to explain he is a loving family man and could never hurt them. I'm not placing blame on Buster he is in an unimaginable situation. Emily D Baker wondered if Jim was rattled because he had just been admonished by the judge for his twitter quote and retweet (you didn't just hit the retweet button Jim) right before Buster took the stand. EBD also said this is essentially "Uncle" Jim asking Buster questions about his dear friend Alex, and that isn't easy. 

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, TN-peach said:

I am going to try to hold off on watching it until after the trial.  That way I can decide on what I think the verdict will be based on the information presented at trial.

The first episode focuses on the boat crash. They have a lot of interview time with the crash survivors & their parents interspersed with lots of photos, social media posts, and what looks like a ton of cell phone footage from all of the young people. Obviously, no Murdaughs took part but the various participants have plenty to say about them. I did not see the previous documentary -- on HBO? Hulu? -- because I donʻt subscribe to whatever service it was on.

3 hours ago, TN-peach said:

I think Alex thinks that he can talk himself out of this.  Afterall, his whole career is based on his people skills and his "charm."

Itʻs a huge risk but Alex wouldn't be the first narcissistic sociopath of an attorney who took the stand in his own defense.

[formergothardite]

My husband and I just started watching the HBO documentary. It is amazing how the Murdaugh family controlled that area for so long. The first episode focuses on the family history and the boat crash. From stories it seems like Alex’s grandfather was basically a mob boss and would have people killed if they crossed him. It really isn’t surprising that Alex and Paul thought they were untouchable. 

[TN-peach]

OMG! He is going to testify.  Oh Crap!

[Howl]

9 hours ago, ifosterkittens said:

Alex does appear to adapt well to situations, he figured out how to work the system in jail and use other people's accounts to make phone calls etc so he is adaptable and talented, and maybe we will find out just how good he is. 

I hadn't really thought about what type of law Alex specialized in, but he has been a criminal defense attorney, based on something I read on Websleuths. 

If this is accurate, he has a lot of connections to criminals who know how to game the system.  Based on what was noted about the grandfather actually having people killed, holy frijole!  Alex was profoundly corrupt and there are a lot of people in AM's orbit with a lot of secrets than can be used as leverage or to intimidate, defending.  Would they try to subtly intimidate a member of the jury?  Entirely possible.  Read a (I think) John Grisham book that dealt with how this is done.  Do extensive background search on each jury member, find a weakness, exploit that weakness. 

[TN-peach]

That is why I think it will be a hung jury.  it is a small town and some local podcast has already named the jurors from what I read.  There is no telling who might approach a juror. I also think there will be at least one firm "non-guilty" and firm "guilty" and they won't change their mind.

[formergothardite]

So where exactly did all the money Alex stole go? I get that he lived a lavish lifestyle and had a drug problem, but that is still a ridiculous amount of money to steal and then somehow end up broke. 

His description of his wife was very bland and impersonal. She was really into traditional girls things, but went to baseball games and road four wheelers. She went to fancy parties and volunteered at a homeless shelter. Those are all things anyone could have learned reading news articles. 

His sudden, constant use of nicknames is annoying. Glad the prosecution called him out on that. 

[Howl]

There are a lot of random people on Twitter who were trying to figure out who Alex Murdaugh is and why his trial was being live streamed over some major network shows.

[ifosterkittens]

@Howlit is funny to be so invested in something and have other people be like WTF are you talking about? I don't publicly discuss the Rods, but I've absolutely discussed this case because it is more relevant to my true crime friends. 

[hoipolloi]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

So where exactly did all the money Alex stole go? I get that he lived a lavish lifestyle and had a drug problem, but that is still a ridiculous amount of money to steal and then somehow end up broke. 

Good question. I wonder if a full accounting is possible. 

At least one of his partners-in-financial-crime, Russell Laffitte, has already been convicted for his role in conspiring with AM to commit wire & financial fraud.

[Howl]

15 hours ago, formergothardite said:

So where exactly did all the money Alex stole go? I get that he lived a lavish lifestyle and had a drug problem, but that is still a ridiculous amount of money to steal and then somehow end up broke. 

Well, exactly.  There's been no mention or implication that Alex burned through $$$ for a mistress, used escorts, kept women or men on the side.  They had a few staff, but that can't account for how much money disappeared into the void. 

So...blackmail? Huge payments to keep secrets? 

Lost massive amounts of money in bad crypto investments? 

Gambling losses? 

Bought a jet? 

Secret payments to support illegitimate children, his or his sons? 

 

 

[TN-peach]

My pure speculation is that the money is in some offshore accounts.

 

Nothing in the trial about mistresses; however, Ms. Shelly stated that Alex normally didn't come over at night.  Marion, Maggie's sister, said that Alex would leave late at night whenever his parents' caretakers would call.  If he didn't go to visit his parents late at night - where was he going at night when he would leave?

 

There has been gossip that he had a girlfriend, or he visited prostitutes. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by TN-peach

[Howl]

Just now, TN-peach said:

My pure speculation is that the money is in some offshore accounts.

That's a likely possibility, but why would Alex set up Cousin Eddie to murder him so Buster could reap a multi-million $$$ insurance policy if there was a lot of money tucked away? 

There have to be forensic accountants poring over Alex' financial transactions, maybe it will all come out in a future trial for financial malfeasance. 

[ifosterkittens]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

That's a likely possibility, but why would Alex set up Cousin Eddie to murder him so Buster could reap a multi-million $$$ insurance policy if there was a lot of money tucked away? 

I don't think the insurance money was the motive for the roadside shooting. I've read the insurance policy would have covered suicide (enough time had passed) and he was a lawyer who could read and understand the policy. September 3 Alex is confronted by his brother and another law partner saying you stole money, we know it, we're reporting you, we're hiring auditors, resign this second you are done; the next day there is this roadside shooting. Alex knows his goose is cooked. He is beyond guilty, he hasn't covered his tracks because he didn't think he needed to, and a full-scale investigation is going to bring several crimes to light. He knows he is going to prison for years, possibly life. 

Alex had two choices face the music or don't. He didn't want to face the music. At that time, it appeared Maggie and Paul's murders were the result of a vigilante (law enforcement didn't rule him out, but they sure weren't focused on putting together a case against him prior to Sept 4). If the plan had gone as intended Alex's death would look like the result of a vigilante. Yes, the law firm would have to investigate his financial crimes, but if Alex had been murdered by a vigilante, I don't think all of Alex's crimes would have received the current level of media attention and scrutiny. 

Frankly I doubt Buster was his priority. Yes, Buster could/would (depending on if assets were frozen and taken to repay debts) have benefited financially, but I think that was a byproduct of the situation, not the intended goal. Another byproduct Buster would have been dropped from the civil lawsuit, and Buster with the help of his uncle Randy who worked for the law firm could have figured out how to repay the law firm with the various inherited assets and maybe the insurance could have gone to Buster. Maybe it was a two birds one stone situation, Alex was murdered by a vigilante- he won't be held accountable, he won't go to prison, and Buster has money to move forward with his life, but not for one second do I believe Buster was the motivating factor. 

I believe Alex is behind the murder of his wife and son. I'm don't think he pulled the trigger on both guns on Maggie and Paul, but I think he is the mastermind and the reason they are dead. I believe he had them killed to make Paul's criminal charges and the family's civil lawsuit go away. I believed Alex this morning when he testified his talk with Jeannie on June 7th was just a talk, he didn't see it was a confrontation. (I also believe Jeannie saw it as a confrontation; I believe they both viewed it different ways). I believe Alex thought he could get out of the missing $792,000, and to him it wasn't that big a deal. Killing Maggie and Paul solved Alex's known problems on June 7, and his financial crimes were not a known problem until September 3, and one day later roadside shooting. 

[hoipolloi]

55 minutes ago, ifosterkittens said:

Frankly I doubt Buster was his priority.

It may be a two-way street. In the excerpts I've heard from the jailhouse phone calls between AM & Buster, Buster sounds very cautious and unenthusiastic -- wary, you might say. It could be that unlike his narcissist father, Buster was always cognizant of the fact that the phone calls were being recorded but their conversations do not sound like something between the two surviving members of a loving family.

[Antimony]

1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

It may be a two-way street. In the excerpts I've heard from the jailhouse phone calls between AM & Buster, Buster sounds very cautious and unenthusiastic -- wary, you might say. It could be that unlike his narcissist father, Buster was always cognizant of the fact that the phone calls were being recorded but their conversations do not sound like something between the two surviving members of a loving family.

Their phone calls...yikes. None of this could come in, but to me, they paint such a picture that makes it make sense why Buster wasn't killed. If it pleases the Court (y'all), I'll pontificate.

First, Buster's name isn't Buster. It's Richard Alexander Murdaugh the Whatever. I think the second. Buster is Alex's legacy. In those phone calls, Buster always sounds like he wants to get off the phone but maybe not just because they're being recorded. Have you called the law school? Alex asks. We have to get you back into law school. We've gotta get a meeting with the Dean. Buster pushes it off. I'll get to it. Yea, Dad, sure. It paints such a picture of an overbearing father obsessed with his legacy and his reputation and a son that isn't passionate about the law, and isn't passionate about the legacy. It's not just a legal thriller, it's a Southern Gothic Novel about a drying up town and the psychology of one very strange family. 

I bet it's been like that for Buster's whole life. Awful.

As for the past two days of testimony...Jim Griffin needs a drink. Creighton Waters doesn't need coffee or an energy drink anymore, that man is high on life. (Also, I confess my most embarassing confession -- Waters seems a little hot, a little sexy, when he gets off a good point. It makes sense he's also in a band, playing bass I think, that covers the Eagles. He's a performer and sometimes it's too much, but sometimes...woof.)

Edited February 24, 2023 by Antimony

[ifosterkittens]

6 hours ago, Antimony said:

As for the past two days of testimony...Jim Griffin needs a drink. 

When the judge was reviewing with Alex his rights before testifying Poot had a look to me that said this is such a dumb idea but it's what the client wants- basically defeat. Emily D Baker said Jim Griffin looked pained and I agree. I think this is personally hard for Jim, maybe his close connection to the Murdaugh family, maybe it is because he thinks it is a terrible idea for Alex to testify, probably a combination of the two, but it isn't his call. Poor Jim can't even get his drink because he's going to be working all weekend preparing for the final four defense witnesses, closing statements and jury instructions. 

@AntimonyI loved all your comments and confession about Creighton! 

Five weeks into this three-week trial where are ya'll standing? I know the trial isn't over and jurors shouldn't have decided one way or the other, but for the spectators. 

1. Legally do you think the state has proved the charges against Alex that he is guilty of pulling the trigger on both Maggie and Paul?

2. What verdict do you think the jury will reach- guilty, not guilty, hung jury?

3. Are you convinced Alex is somehow involved, but don't think he pulled the trigger on both Maggie and Paul? (Ie Alex intentionally brought Paul and Maggie to the dog kennels that night to be killed by people he hired, or Alex killed only one and someone else he hired killed the other). 

4. Do you think Alex testifying helped, hurt or did nothing to his defense?

[Antimony]

In order;

1. Short of the Defense showing some amount of solid evidence for another gunman, yes. I really cannot get around "unidentifieed gunman shows up 3 minutes after Alex last sighted to a private property to kill two people who were not habitually in that area using what are most probably family guns, and the man on trial happens to lie about where he was around the time of death despite having no way or reason to know what the time of death even would be if he were innocent" I just cannot get around it. 

2. Hung, guilty, not guilty, in order of my probability guess.

3. Two can keep a secret...if one of them is dead. Obviously, a hired man or such wouldn't tell on himself and neither would Alex. But...we have no evidence of Alex moving hitman money (though, with his finances.....but on the other hand, as a hitman, I would upcharge the man, ya know, just seeing how he lives...he's not gonna get my discount rate) or talking to another person. The cell tower pinged only Murdaugh's that night. There's just...nothing. If there was, there should be some hint of it...even if it's not solid. There's nothing. 

4. Hurt. Almost never helps.