South Carolina Mother and Son Murdered

[ifosterkittens]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:03 PM, formergothardite said:

So where exactly did all the money Alex stole go? I get that he lived a lavish lifestyle and had a drug problem, but that is still a ridiculous amount of money to steal and then somehow end up broke. 

Emily Baker's guess is the Bahamas, he took a trip shortly after Maggie and Paul were murdered. Given the extensive nature of Alex's crimes I bet law enforcement is dedicating a lot of resources to pursue all avenues to try to track it down. 

On 2/23/2023 at 6:03 PM, formergothardite said:

His sudden, constant use of nicknames is annoying. Glad the prosecution called him out on that. 

I agree. I feel like I am cringing every time I heard Alex say Paw Paw. I wish we could ask Rogan, Nolan or Blanca what did Alex call Paul. 

On 2/24/2023 at 9:58 AM, Howl said:

That's a likely possibility, but why would Alex set up Cousin Eddie to murder him so Buster could reap a multi-million $$$ insurance policy if there was a lot of money tucked away?

I wouldn't be surprised if Alex has money tucked away, but I doubt it is easily linked to him and not easily accessible. If Alex wanted Buster to have access to (hypothetical) hidden money he would have to leave him instructions on how to access it, and I think that could raise more questions for Buster. How would Alex have gotten the information to Buster without alerting anyone else? If Alex called Buster and said just in case anything happens to me there is money and here is the information to access it could that alert Buster to thinking his dad may contemplate suicide? Buster could be worried and talk to someone about it. If Alex left a note for Buster would Buster show the note with the instructions to Uncle Randy, or Jim Griffin which could complicate things hoping they are ethical attorneys who would report it. Alex probably saw the insurance money as money Buster could easily collect, he may have to prove he was the beneficiary, but with Uncle Randy's help it could eventually go to Buster. 

[hoipolloi]

1. They've done pretty well. The timeline evidence as supported by various digital data is pretty tight. The fact that the prosecution got AM to admit to his previous lies to SLED and others is significant. They have also established that AM is a habitual liar. They will, however, need to have a strong summing up. 

2. Hung, guilty, not guilty. IIRC, it just takes one juror to say "not guilty" for there to be a hung jury.

3. The defense has not convincingly demonstrated that another party was present and/or committed the murders. That crime scene reconstruction with the short shooter or whatever was ridiculous.

4. AM's testimony hurt his case. It will be interesting to see if his attorneys can salvage his case in the time remaining.

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by hoipolloi

[formergothardite]

I think the state has done a good job proving that Alex did it. That video taken minutes before both Paul and Maggie stopped using their phones shows he had to have been there. The fact that he immediately started lying to the 911 operator is very damning. He clearly told her thart he had checked their pulses and could confirm they were dead. And he confirmed it again when she told him not to touch anything because it might be a crime scene. 

Pretty sure it will be a hung jury. Alex has some Gil Bates level "aw shucks, I'm just a harmless country boy" persona that at least one jury member will probably buy. 

But I do think he has hurt himself a great deal by testifying. He will go into excruciating details describing his mother's bedroom, but is vague about the last moments with his wife and son. His memory is very selective. He also doesn't appear remorseful for scamming countless people out of millions of dollars. 

[Antimony]

There are moments on the stand where Alex was fairly convincing...but the longer Waters kept him up there, the less it worked, and I think that was strategic. Exhausting, but strategic. (Waters also has some role in prosecution the financial crimes, so he was doing double dipping to get a confession there because those will go to trial later, I believe.)

Liz Farrell (of MMP) noted that instead of using his time up on the stand to give any other reasonable person or hint of who might have done it, he essentially boxed out all other suspects but himself. Was anybody else down at the kennels, Waters asked. No, if they were, the dogs would have been barking their heads off, Alex confirms. 

Then he gets up there and says shit like, "I was getting ready to do what I didn't want to do." and "I can tell you what I wasn't doing, I wasn't cleaning guns." My guy, nobody in this whole trial has bought up the idea of cleaning guns. Except you. 

[ifosterkittens]

I would like to go on with the jury to Moselle to see the dog kennels and feed room. I know it won't be part of the jury view, but I'd also want to see the "tiny" cabin. Alex was all it is tiny, just four rooms- kitchen, two bedrooms and a bathroom. (Buster and Rogan lived there one summer, and Alex kept some of his clothes there after the murders.) I want to see the tiny cabin to see if we have a similar definition of tiny. 

[ifosterkittens]

I think Creighton did a solid closing (part one). EDB wondered if Creighton rambled on about the financial crimes before lunch so he could have the rest of the afternoon for his closing so the jury could go home that night thinking about what he said which makes sense to me-- plus he's not a short and sweet guy. Given the facts the state has he did a good job clarifying means, opportunity, and consciousness of guilt. I'm not in complete agreement on motive, but he covered it thoroughly. I think he did a good pulling together the timeline and using testimony from the experts, (former) friends, and Alex to support or refute certain points. 

If you believe Alex was involved, either the trigger man, or mastermind how long do you think he planned out the murders? Do you think there was a specific incident that made Alex pick that date? I wonder if he was self-detoxing on June 6 (perhaps supported by his texts with Maggie about the weather at the baseball game and late checkout at the hotel) and had enough of being so closely monitored by Maggie and Paul if he decided ok time to move forward with the plan. I suspect he had been thinking about it a while but think something put it in motion. There was another hearing in the civil suit June 10, so maybe that was the reason for the date of the murders on June 7? I don't think his father's hospitalization that day was a factor for the murders. I also don't think Jeannie confronting him about the missing $792,000 was the tipping point for Alex; I just think it also happened that day. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

Alex Murdaugh has been found guilty of killing his wife and son. 

[hoipolloi]

40 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Alex Murdaugh has been found guilty of killing his wife and son. 

Heard this while I was having my hair cut! I am surprised. I honestly thought the jury would deliberate for quite a while and then end up with a hung jury. 

I think justice has been served here though no doubt he will appeal.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

This trial reminds me of the Josh Duggar trial for many reasons.

1. Rich, prominent Southern family that's well known in the community and used to having their own way.

2.  Expensive defense team mounts bizzare, happy family/good family man defense.

3.  At some point, defense seems to be throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

4. Defense never came up with a plausible theory of who else could have done it. 

[ifosterkittens]

1 hour ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

This trial reminds me of the Josh Duggar trial for many reasons.

1. Rich, prominent Southern family that's well known in the community and used to having their own way.

2.  Expensive defense team mounts bizzare, happy family/good family man defense.

3.  At some point, defense seems to be throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

4. Defense never came up with a plausible theory of who else could have done it. 

I really like your comparison points of the Murdaughs and Duggars. Another thing they both had in common was the 404 evidence of prior bad acts that came in. 

While I know it isn't the defense's responsibility to provide an alternative plausible theory, I think they needed one to have a chance at a not guilty verdict. Three people went to the kennels, only one walked away alive, and he lied about being there. It is crazy to me that if Paul hadn't taken that snapchat video at 8:44 with Alex's voice on it I don't think this case would have been charged. Paul the "Little Detective" helped convict Alex. It doesn't feel like justice because it doesn't change things for Paul and Maggie, but at least the person responsible for their deaths is being held accountable. 

[hoipolloi]

8 minutes ago, ifosterkittens said:

Three people went to the kennels, only one walked away alive, and he lied about being there.

This is the crux of the case against AM and the defense couldn't do anything to rebut or dismantle it.

[TN-peach]

I agree Alex couldn't get passed the kennel video and his consistent lie about it.  Also, the idea that he only tells the truth when confronting with evidence that he is lying - that was obvious.  I also wonder if the testimony from the retired sheriff saying that Alex never asked him about putting blue lights on his personal car.  This would mean that he lied directly to the jury.  I doubt that went over well.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, ifosterkittens said:

I really like your comparison points of the Murdaughs and Duggars. Another thing they both had in common was the 404 evidence of prior bad acts that came in. 

While I know it isn't the defense's responsibility to provide an alternative plausible theory, I think they needed one to have a chance at a not guilty verdict. Three people went to the kennels, only one walked away alive, and he lied about being there. It is crazy to me that if Paul hadn't taken that snapchat video at 8:44 with Alex's voice on it I don't think this case would have been charged. Paul the "Little Detective" helped convict Alex. It doesn't feel like justice because it doesn't change things for Paul and Maggie, but at least the person responsible for their deaths is being held accountable. 

I was 100% convinced of his guilt. If I had been a juror and another juror wanted to vote NG, I would have needed that person to provide a plausible/probable/reasonable alternative that fit the timeline and was supported by the evidence. No one has been able to do that for me (I have followed the trial and was in a Reddit forum). If you have reasonable doubt, you have to be able to provide a more probable and reasonable alternative. In the absence of that, you have to say he is guilty.

[hoipolloi]

Two consecutive life sentences with no parole is a good and just sentence, IMO. For a variety of reasons, I do not believe in the death penalty. 

I hope that Maggie & Paul are resting in peace, wherever they are. Neither one of them ever deserved to be executed in cold blood. 

[Bobology]

Tonight, Friday, the Dateline NBC program is about the AM trial. That's fast, they had stuff ready to go (assuming the conclusion is included.)

[hoipolloi]

Interesting interview with one of the jurors.

Sounds like there were a couple of NG votes at first but then it took them less than hour to agree on guilty on all counts.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I'm watching Dateline. I'm struck by how easily Alex Murdaugh seems to crumble under pressure. 

Not only did the state have the video of dog with Alex's voice, but it seems like it was a  good strategy to have multiple witnesses identify the voices on the tape. Harder to refute multiple witnesses.

Also points to the police officer who was first to arrive and had his body cam on.

He said he checked their pulses and yet didn't seem to have blood on him.  Alex also claims to have turned Paul over and had no blood on them. He definitely seems to have cleaned up. And his own testimony has him taking time before calling the police. If he was innocent, why didn't he call the police? And as Maggie's sister said why wasn't Alex not afraid for his own life?  If most people walked in on people who had been killed, they'd be trying to hide from the killer.

[ifosterkittens]

Did anyone watch Dick's Q&A yesterday after the sentencing? Dick was asked if it was a good idea for Alex to testify. I'm paraphrasing you'll have to watch the recording for his exact language, but this was my takeaway. Dick said 1. Alex always wanted to testify, 2. they felt the prosecution forced Alex to testify when they said he stole from children and cripples. Then he turned to Jim, and said that's probably not politically correct, forgive me I'm old. (No, Dick, you are capable of learning better language.) Dick seemed to gloss over the kennel video that proved Alex was lying. 3. Dick said Alex thought he could talk his way out of it. Frankly I think Dick is right on point three; Alex thought he could take his way out of it. I'm sure Alex has talked his way out of stuff before, but I doubt it was ever in a situation where the person knew what a liar he was and had proof of all of his lies which makes it much harder to convince someone you're now telling the truth. 

Jim said the judge's ruling on the prosecutor's comments about Alex's post arrest silence is what they plan to appeal to the federal supreme court. I know several law-tubers have commented on all the 403 and 404 evidence (financial crimes and roadside shooting) being part of the appeal, but they've also said while the judge may have admitted too much of the financial crimes going back to 2011 the defense opened the door to at least some of it coming in when they asked witnesses about Alex's character. It will be an interesting appeal. Peter from Lawyer You Know on youtube said he's been a criminal prosecutor and is now a civil attorney and in his experience in every case when 404 evidence (prior bad acts) is admitted the defendant loses. 

[Bobology]

I watched the Dateline show and the 20/20 covering of the case/trial. Maggie posturing for divorce wasn't mentioned on either program and I was certain that her imminent action towards filing for divorce was mentioned here a few times. Am I mistaken?

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 minute ago, Bobology said:

I watched the Dateline show and the 20/20 covering of the case/trial. Maggie posturing for divorce wasn't mentioned on either program and I was certain that her imminent action towards filing for divorce was mentioned here a few times. Am I mistaken?

Yes, she allegedly was thinking about divorce and taking actions towards getting a divorce. Neither side mentioned whether Maggie was getting a divorce during the trial. The prosecution either didn't know or didn't think it was necessary to include it. The defense was playing the happy family card. Since the programs were about the trial, it wasn't mentioned.

They also didn't mention any ties between the Murdaughs and Stephen Smith. It's still unclear what the connection is. I hope that they find his killer/killers---- Murdaughs or not.

[ifosterkittens]

People Magazine had an article September 2021 saying Maggie saw a divorce attorney six weeks before her murder. https://people.com/crime/maggie-murdaugh-saw-divorce-lawyer-six-weeks-before-murders/ The article is cited in other articles, but it is the only thing I can find (based on a quick google search) to support Maggie seeing a divorce lawyer.

I've included the link for a tweet from Mandy Matney saying she couldn't find anything to support Maggie seeking a divorce. https://twitter.com/MandyMatney/status/1625667888844533761 I really like and respect Mandy Matney, and I take her word over People. 

If the prosecution had what was needed to admit into evidence something that supported the claim Maggie consulted an attorney to discuss a divorce, I guarantee they would have used it. If Maggie was seeking a divorce or even just a financial audit that would have made the prosecution's financial motive, make sense. If Maggie was going to force the financial issue, I can completely follow the logic of why Alex would kill her. 

31 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

They also didn't mention any ties between the Murdaughs and Stephen Smith. It's still unclear what the connection is. I hope that they find his killer/killers---- Murdaughs or not.

I hope Stephen Smith's killer(s) are found and held responsible. I am doubtful that will happen. Emily Baker said from what she has seen Stephen Smith clearly was not hit by a hit vehicle, someone beat him. It appears SLED botched the investigation. Was that at Alex's direction? At this time, I think it is all rumor (although it sure seems like something he would do) that Alex influenced SLED. I also think at this time it's only rumor that connects Buster and Stephen Smith. Given the time that has passed, and a botched investigation unless someone confesses or knows the real story and can provide evidence of that story, I think Stephen's death will remain unsolved. 

[hoipolloi]

7 hours ago, ifosterkittens said:

Frankly I think Dick is right on point three; Alex thought he could take his way out of it. I'm sure Alex has talked his way out of stuff before, but I doubt it was ever in a situation where the person knew what a liar he was and had proof of all of his lies which makes it much harder to convince someone you're now telling the truth. 

In several of true crime books written by the late Ann Rule, the accused insisted on taking the stand and it did not end well for them. Even when one of the accused was an attorney, he did a terrible job. Along with AM, they were all narcissists who were sure they would be able to convince the jury of their innocence. 

 

2 hours ago, ifosterkittens said:

It appears SLED botched the investigation. Was that at Alex's direction?

SLED absolutely botched the investigation of Stephenʻs death. Youʻd think between whatʻs come out concerning that case and the murders of Maggie & Paul that some heads would roll at that agency. 

The Netflix show on the Murdaughs indicates they had some involvement, at least peripherally, in the aftermath of Stephenʻs death. IIRC, Alex or his brother approached the family about representing them. Mandy Matney has also talked about potential connections in her podcast. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by hoipolloi
Clarity

[ifosterkittens]

5 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

SLED absolutely botched the investigation of Stephenʻs death. Youʻd think between whatʻs come out concerning that case and the murders of Maggie & Paul that some heads would roll at that agency. 

I seriously hope so; SLED needs serious reform! 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I thought there was new evidence in Stephen Smith's death that was found around the time of Maggie's and Paul's deaths. I could be wrong though. If they really think Alex might know something, they should keep him talking. 

[hoipolloi]

2 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I thought there was new evidence in Stephen Smith's death that was found around the time of Maggie's and Paul's deaths. I could be wrong though. If they really think Alex might know something, they should keep him talking. 

IIRC, SLED reopened Stephen's case after Maggieʻs & Paulʻs murders. I donʻt think they've ever said why they did so although many have conjectured that they came across something while investigating the Moselle murders that related to Stephenʻs death.