Counting On Season 11: How Low Can They Go?

[NancyDrewFan1989]

5 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I vote both.  At this point even a couple of half-wits should have connected the dots.

I don't think they'll rock the boat, though, since that could result in them having to support Anna and seven children vs. JB.

This just makes the situation sadder than it already is. The Kellers are probably doing nothing but praying for Anna and what she should do next. Considering divorce isn't an option to them they won't even let her think about it. Anna is in for a rough road. I don't see her parents offering her much support outside of her staying there with the kids from time to time. The only Keller who genuinely offered Anna support the last time was her brother who saw right through Josh's ruse and realized things were going to get worse for at some point.

The only way I can see her parents helping her out is if Josh gets sent to a prison outside of Arkansas. It is possible and they only have one unmarried child at home. They may not have a problem letting her stay there long term if Josh gets sent to a prison outside of Arkansas. 

[Tatar-tot]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:44 AM, Mama Mia said:

Very good points people are making here about house arrest. The creepy part to me is that they could easily have spent a couple weeks and remodeled it to give it windows and make it a regular house. They have the skills and resources - if they were just going for adding individual family homes to their acreage , why not make it nice? Maybe they did some of that and we just haven’t seen it? But it definitely gives off punishment or at least - figure something out quick! Vibes. 

The sad thing is who is really getting punished is Team M.  Those poor kids don’t deserve this crap.

[fundiewatch]

I remember the Whatever Kids And Counting where we saw the inside of the Keller trailer. It was actually a very sweet, I remember thinking, moment between Priscilla and Anna where they talked about living their entire lives in this set of bunk beds, paired together. IMHO, Anna has now seen way more of the world and would never return to raise her kids there. She can have one of the giant bedrooms at TTH. She’d much rather be there. 

[Smee]

10 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

I also think people are way too charitable to the Kellers.  We are talking about ATI, an organization that was run by a man who was at least sexually harassing if not sexually assaulting young women in his organization.  The board not only covered it up. but do not seem to have done any real distancing from him except for what might make sense to generate public interest and legally.

We're also talking about an organization that they all belong to that teaches that women and girls are always responsible for men harassing or assaulting them, no matter what.  You can see this in the ATI materials put together for child sexual abuse.  That they even had these materials leads me to believe it wasn't uncommon for it to come up.  The Kellers seem fully on board with all the same beliefs as the Duggars (likewise with the Bates), and would consider this to be equally the fault of the girls as with Josh.  They also believe as long as he has repented, he is in the clear and if his victims were still upset about it, it was the victims' weakness, not Josh's.  There is also the idea in these religious circles that Satan is a real literal being that goes out of his way to tempt people, and they will see this as satan tempting and besting Josh for a bit, not something within Josh causing this.

In all, I have no idea if the Kellers were told everything, but even if they weren't I'm not sure it would make a difference.  They believe all the same things that the Duggars do.  Similarly, I occasionally see people making the argument that this wouldn't happen in the Bates family.  The only reason that it didn't was that the Bates parents were lucky enough not to have a child act in this way.  They had no issue sending their daughters to be around Gothard, they have defended him since the allegations came out, and they have never issued a statement regarding what has happened with the Duggars that would highlight they even care.

It can be hard to wrap our heads around from the outside that people would make these choices even with full knowledge of events, but then look at Tabitha Paine.  It doesn't really matter to many of them.

Yes, all of this. The Kellers read the same ATI patriarchal propaganda that said male children shouldn’t change their infant siblings’ diapers. They are also part of the fundie world, which as we know is pretty small - people at the Duggars’ church knew, people outside the family who were involved at the time (e.g. the cop, the people where Josh was sent to work after) knew. There were whispers and rumours even outside those communities for years before it came out, and I have no doubt fundies engage in gossip with one another and the story was better known inside the cult than it was on the internet. Pa Keller has a prison ministry, one of their sons is courting Hannah Reber, and we know they told Anna to stay after the Ashley Madison stuff went public. Even if they didn’t know the extent of the molestations, they’ve done  nothing to indicate they want to protect Anna or put her interests before the Duggars.

[Angelface]

Until sexual molestation and sexual abuse or assault are viewed as a crime (within this ATI/IBLP cult) rather than a SIN nothing will change. It will still be Satan and victim blaming whilst the, usually, male perpetrator pretends to repent. Classing this behaviour as a crime would help enormously.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Angelface

[Expectopatronus]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:57 PM, sndral said:

If sentenced to prison, where Josh serves his sentence will be up to the Federal Bureau of Prisons not the Judge https://www.bop.gov/inmates/custody_and_care/designations.jsp, the Judge has some input, but ultimately it’s up to BOP & they’ll base their assignment on their guidelines.

I skimmed the link rather than reading closely but when it says that transfer date and location are not released in advance, does that mean that even the inmate doesn’t know where or when he will be transferred? That would be psychologically damaging. I can’t even image getting on a plane and having no idea where I am or where I am going. 
Question for people more knowledgeable than me; given that Josh’s offense is non-contact will he be viewed as less dangerous than offenders who directly abuse children themselves? Not diminishing the offense just wondering about classification. Where I live, viewing CSA material receives a lesser sentence and lower security classification than making the material. 

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, Expectopatronus said:

given that Josh’s offense is non-contact 

As far as we know now. And I hope that's true.

[feministxtian]

When my daughter was xferred from state to fed to serve her fed time, she was able to choose where she wanted to go. It might have been because she was minimum security and was sent to a "camp" instead of a prison. She ended up at "Camp Cupcake" in West VA. It was nice because we could go up on a weekend to visit her. I doubt that Josh would have that choice since he's a sex offender. 

[Expectopatronus]

@feministxtian Stupid question but is federal often combined with state time? Where I am, it’s either federal or provincial and based on the amount of time. Two years plus a day becomes federal in most cases. It seems a bit unfair that someone would have have to serve two sentences following one trial. That said, our legal systems are completely different even though we are geographically so close to each other. I don’t understand the use of the word “camp” when applied to jail; what makes an institution a camp vs a penitentiary? 

[feministxtian]

11 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

@feministxtian Stupid question but is federal often combined with state time? Where I am, it’s either federal or provincial and based on the amount of time. Two years plus a day becomes federal in most cases. It seems a bit unfair that someone would have have to serve two sentences following one trial. That said, our legal systems are completely different even though we are geographically so close to each other. I don’t understand the use of the word “camp” when applied to jail; what makes an institution a camp vs a penitentiary? 

She served the state/fed concurrently. She spent like 5 years in the state system and then 2 years federal. The camp is a place where there is minimal security. There was no razor wire, the campus was huge and the inmates were free to go wherever during the day and had to be in their dorms at a certain time at night. As a matter of fact, the entrance to the camp was nothing more than one of those bars that goes across the road. There was a line painted on the asphalt about 25 feet from the gate and the inmates weren't allowed to cross it. I'm not sure if it's every state but normally under a year is served in county jail, over a year you go to state and then if it's a federal crime, you go into the fed system. She had state and fed time so she got credit for time served before her trial, then state time and fed time ran concurrently and by the time she was done w/her state term, she still had 2 years to serve on her fed time. I THINK she got "good time" in the fed system, and was released to a halfway house before her full term was over. She also served time on parole, unsupervised though because she had a lot of achievements while she was locked up, she was clean and sober, had an AAS degree in graphic arts, took all the financial and parenting classes too. As of right now, 9 years after her release, she's still clean and sober, just got her Master's, owns a house, has a fantastic job...

this is where she did her federal time https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/ald/

Edited July 13, 2021 by feministxtian

[NancyDrewFan1989]

23 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

The sad thing is who is really getting punished is Team M.  Those poor kids don’t deserve this crap.

I just feel for the kids out of all of those involved. I was happy to see that some of the older ones were able to go to Texas and get away for a bit. Knowing Josh and Anna they are doing their best to shield them from what is going on; especially if they truly believe Josh will be found not guilty. However, Mackynzie, Michael, Marcus, and Meredith have to have some idea that something really bad is going on since Josh isn't living at home. I have a feeling the four of them are dealing with the brunt of all the pain, confusion, isolation, heartbreak, anger, and a mix of other feelings.

[Chickenbutt]

2 hours ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

I just feel for the kids out of all of those involved. I was happy to see that some of the older ones were able to go to Texas and get away for a bit. Knowing Josh and Anna they are doing their best to shield them from what is going on; especially if they truly believe Josh will be found not guilty. However, Mackynzie, Michael, Marcus, and Meredith have to have some idea that something really bad is going on since Josh isn't living at home. I have a feeling the four of them are dealing with the brunt of all the pain, confusion, isolation, heartbreak, anger, and a mix of other feelings.

How/what does one explain to a child about the absence of their father? I would imagine that the older kids have overheard words like court, judge, prison, pictures, pornography etc. Do you think anyone has sat those kids down and explained anything to them? Did the adult fall back on Satan and sin? How will they explain a 20 year sentence to the kids? Did they explain that daddy is getting a (very long) time out because he didn't follow the rules? So many questions and no answers....and most likely will never be any answers. 

[Idlewild]

Well the kids don’t go to school and I doubt they have internet access, so all they know is Dad is living apart for whatever reason their parents have decided to tell them.

I don’t have any reason to believe Josh and Anna are ‘doing their best to shield them’. Anna has spent years thrusting her kids on her very public social media account and trying to get them on TV in full knowledge of her husband’s previous behaviour. They could have lived a private life but chose not to.

I expect for the kids old enough to listen Anna and Josh are blaming liberals, Satan and everyone else but Josh.

[NoKidsAndCounting]

This is the one time I would ever be glad that the M kids and the younger Duggars are homeschooled, even if it's a terrible education.  I can't imagine the amount of ridicule they would receive from their peers.  Public school peers might even reveal details about the crime to them that they didn't know, resulting in even more trauma from which they would need to recover.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any hope Anna would choose public school for them after Josh is sentenced, and in this case, maybe that is best for the kids.  I just wish they could somehow receive better private schooling and trauma counseling at the same time.

I agree with what others have said re: Anna and Josh.  They are simply telling the kids that this whole issue is the result of sin, Satan, and the liberals.  Or, they're telling the kids that there has been a misunderstanding and Josh didn't actually do anything bad.  I'm so sad for the children.  I just want to see ONE thing go right for them.  Every adult in control has failed them.

 

[NancyDrewFan1989]

14 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

How/what does one explain to a child about the absence of their father? I would imagine that the older kids have overheard words like court, judge, prison, pictures, pornography etc. Do you think anyone has sat those kids down and explained anything to them? Did the adult fall back on Satan and sin? How will they explain a 20 year sentence to the kids? Did they explain that daddy is getting a (very long) time out because he didn't follow the rules? So many questions and no answers....and most likely will never be any answers. 

There are so many questions that will never be answered for them. They have a mother who, apparently, is in complete denial of the whole situation, a father who is a pedophile facing a lengthy prison sentence possibly miles away, paternal grandparents who are, allegedly, feuding with their mother possibly cutting off contact with their nieces and nephews they are close in age with, and maternal grandparents who, most likely, are doing absolutely nothing other than praying for them. The only thing that will help the kids out is for their mother to get them as far away as possible from Arkansas for the time being. That is why I was very happy to see that some of the older ones spent time with David and Priscilla for a bit. It got them away from the stress everyone is under. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, NoKidsAndCounting said:

This is the one time I would ever be glad that the M kids and the younger Duggars are homeschooled, even if it's a terrible education.  I can't imagine the amount of ridicule they would receive from their peers.  Public school peers might even reveal details about the crime to them that they didn't know, resulting in even more trauma from which they would need to recover.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any hope Anna would choose public school for them after Josh is sentenced, and in this case, maybe that is best for the kids.  I just wish they could somehow receive better private schooling and trauma counseling at the same time.

I agree with what others have said re: Anna and Josh.  They are simply telling the kids that this whole issue is the result of sin, Satan, and the liberals.  Or, they're telling the kids that there has been a misunderstanding and Josh didn't actually do anything bad.  I'm so sad for the children.  I just want to see ONE thing go right for them.  Every adult in control has failed them.

 

What makes you think private school kids wouldn't find out information about the family? They probably have internet access or could find out the same information as private school. Maybe Christian private schools might have other students who respect the Duggars as famous Christians? Not all Christians support the Duggars, IBLP, or Josh in particular. 

Given that it's Arkansas, there may be other kids who the Duggar kids would fit in with in the public schools.  

[NoKidsAndCounting]

21 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

What makes you think private school kids wouldn't find out information about the family? They probably have internet access or could find out the same information as private school. Maybe Christian private schools might have other students who respect the Duggars as famous Christians? Not all Christians support the Duggars, IBLP, or Josh in particular. 

Given that it's Arkansas, there may be other kids who the Duggar kids would fit in with in the public schools.  

I meant "private schooling" in the sense that I wish they could have a one-on-one tutor or teacher rather than a private school with a lot of kids.  I'm sorry for any confusion.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

5 minutes ago, NoKidsAndCounting said:

I meant "private schooling" in the sense that I wish they could have a one-on-one tutor or teacher rather than a private school with a lot of kids.  I'm sorry for any confusion.

Yes, that sounds like a good idea.

[Not that josh's mom]

is Ben still the teacher for all the Duggar kids, including Josh's? I guess he's probably the best choice they have if it has to be a family member.

[Idlewild]

18 minutes ago, Not that josh's mom said:

is Ben still the teacher for all the Duggar kids, including Josh's? I guess he's probably the best choice they have if it has to be a family member.

He’s now an ordained pastor so may not have the time- education has always been such a low priority for JB & M- even though they benefited from it themselves. 

[nokidsmom]

On 7/14/2021 at 1:03 AM, Idlewild said:

I don’t have any reason to believe Josh and Anna are ‘doing their best to shield them’. Anna has spent years thrusting her kids on her very public social media account and trying to get them on TV in full knowledge of her husband’s previous behaviour. They could have lived a private life but chose not to.

This.   As much as I wish that these poor kids could be shielded from this (at least for awhile because no matter what, they will have to know) they have parents who have had no quibbles about putting them out in public view.    They had 6 years to reconsider the downsides of public life after the first 2 Joshgates.   6 years.   But instead Anna, in particular, has continued putting her kids on display with no thought of how that public exposure might affect her kids, especially since their own father has been shown to be an extremely messed up individual.   She chose not to protect them.

19 hours ago, NancyDrewFan1989 said:

The only thing that will help the kids out is for their mother to get them as far away as possible from Arkansas for the time being. That is why I was very happy to see that some of the older ones spent time with David and Priscilla for a bit. It got them away from the stress everyone is under.

I was glad to see that they got away for a bit.   As much as we snark on Pecan and Pris, I think they would provide a good respite for those kids.    

[Dandruff]

I hope those kids aren't being told to pray extra hard because Satan is attacking daddy, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were.  If so, their stress levels are probably off the charts.