I'm a Reformed Person in VF/ATI circles. Ask Me Anything.

[oscar]

My dad really wanted to give me an epistemologically conscious name, but he had already used it for his kitty and my mom didn't want to name me after a cat.

[Brainsample]

Can I be Meretricious Cultivar? Pretty please?

We live in free countries and are autonomous women, right?

[

Athena,

I, Yankee Bitch, officially declare you Meretricious Cultivar.

When living in Texas and involved in a few matters, I stated that those who opposed me (regarding non-payment of hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical claims) were "messing with the wrong Yankee Bitch." So I think I already have a psuedonum title, uttered aloud at Babcock and Huebner Roads in San Antonio, and didn't see the need for any other one. (The name my dad gave me is loaded with both direct and implied Christian virtue anyway, and so is m psuedonym.)

[Effie]

So, Knightie is gone, huh...?

[Brainsample]

So, Knightie is gone, huh...?

Knight, Are you gone? What's your status these days?

[evenstar210]

He'll probably pop up when we least expect and say "Oops! I was too busy watching Grey's" even though he's been lurking the whole time.

Either that or he's composing a megillah to answer everybody's questions.

[Shirley MacLaine]

CAN'T STOP WATCHING GREY'S GREY'S GREY'S GREYYYYY'S

[formergothardite]

He will come back when he thinks the little women are nice enough. Since we are supposed to be nice to people who come tell us we are less than them since we don't have a penis like he does. Because no matter how much he explains it in sugary words, that is what patriarchy means. And judging from the fact that he hasn't explained how saying men are always the head of the home isn't putting men above women, he knows that, he was just hoping we were too dumb to see it.

[Brainsample]

He will come back when he thinks the little women are nice enough. Since we are supposed to be nice to people who come tell us we are less than them since we don't have a penis like he does. Because no matter how much he explains it in sugary words, that is what patriarchy means. And judging from the fact that he hasn't explained how saying men are always the head of the home isn't putting men above women, he knows that, he was just hoping we were too dumb to see it.

I didn't get the impression that it was a "little women" issue but more of a fear of the general discomfort of the criticism. And frankly, I don't think that he understands what sets off the critics because his perspective is so different than the average person posting here, especially those of us who are old enough to be his parent and have a completely different perspective of things that he doesn't understand very well. And that understanding is definitely prejudiced to some extent, just because of his background. He's been told X, Y, and Z about people who fall outside the group, and he's got that predisposition that was given to him to overcome.

In other words, I don't necessarily think that he really thinks that people posting here are dumb. He's just relying on his default programming and that, as we well know, involves moralizing things and taking a defensive but condescending approach to people. That may be his training talking when he feels less than comfortable, and he may not really know how he feels. I didn't get the impression that he thought we were dumb, but I do think he retreated into the patriarchy party line a little, probably that which he's not even had a chance to think through yet. That said, I don't mind pointing out when his comments sound condescending and patronizing. That certainly doesn't warrant maudlin attention or a love fest from any of us. It warrants critical snark! But seriously, I don't think he gets it because he's not worked through it yet, not because he's an arse.

I get the distinct impression that he's young, and I think he's still just trying to process all of this stuff. It has got to be tiring to read so much commentary challenging his whole belief system about which he has doubts. That's a major, life-altering process, especially if you grew up in the system. If he were a decade older, I'd be much tougher and less empathetic.

Whether he just continues to lurk or whether he intends to come back and answer questions, reading hear on FJ will help him continue to think and process his doubts about the inconsistencies in the group. I hope that he continues to do that and finds a kind ear when he's ready to talk about it all.

I am, however, very intolerant of hearing how great Dougie is :roll: , because I hold such a different opinion of him. The same goes for the warm love and genuine nature of how great the families are, because it is like a slap in the face to me, given my very different experience. I also don't get this commentary about how VF is different if not superior to ATI and that VF doesn't ascribe to certain similar beliefs. And the Pope is Jewish! Some of that is outright insulting if I don't "consider the source," a young man who has a very limited perspective and limited experience with the overall group. We know it's a load of bull, and I don't feel compelled to be nice about that. But I don't think that Knight gets that, or at least he didn't when he first started posting here.

But I could be wrong. It could always be Kelly trying to vent her angst at Peter, calling herself "Knight." ;)

[formergothardite]

I think he is probably in his 20's which is old enough for me to stop cutting people slack. He said he has gone out into the world for some time and still came back to Dougie and his teachings. I think, that just like he feels VF and Doug are sooooo intellectual, he feels that he is in some ways smarter than us. I really think that when he first came here he thought he could dish the gossip, get loved on and nobody would dare to question him. When that didn't work out, and the many holes in his statements were pointed out, his true feelings towards the people here became obvious in his condescending replies.

I guess I'm just not as nice as you are, lol. Because I can't see at all that he is truly struggling with his beliefs. I just see a man who believes that he is better than women pissed off because they aren't doing things his way. His pm to me, besides calling me a bitch in a passive aggressive way, was all about how if I would just talk to him in the way he is telling me to talk to him he MIGHT think about the things I am saying. I really am not trying to convert him to being just like me, I just think that if you are going to come here and spout your horrible beliefs, you should at least have the guts to attempt to explain them instead of acting like he is.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I think he is probably in his 20's which is old enough for me to stop cutting people slack.

It definitely is.

[formergothardite]

Brainsample, I didn't mean that you are nicer than me in a snarky way, so I hope you don't take it that way. Some people are just better at seeing the good in others and giving a benefit of a doubt than I am. Sometimes I wish I was a nicer person, but I've gotten grouchy and developed a low tolerance for bs in my old age. :)

Knight, I was on cold meds and totally went against my good judgment when I sent you the first pm. I really don't like dealing with fundies that way. I think it is better just to have it all out in the open, so I haven't even read the pm you sent me. If you have something to say to me, say it here. If by doing so you would reveal who you really are to those who know you, then don't I don't really care, but I hope in the future you will think long and hard before you talk about your friends behind their back. That is a lesson best learned well and learned early.

Anywhoo, I've been meaning to post this, but my parents always save their some of their old magazines for my oldest daughter to cut up and do stuff with, and the other day a VF catalog was it it. They ordered something from VF forever ago and still get it, this is either the first time they sent one or the first time I've noticed.

[Brainsample]

Brainsample, I didn't mean that you are nicer than me in a snarky way, so I hope you don't take it that way. Some people are just better at seeing the good in others and giving a benefit of a doubt than I am. Sometimes I wish I was a nicer person, but I've gotten grouchy and developed a low tolerance for bs in my old age. :)

No worries.

I basically take the exit counseling approach, and when Knight sent me a PM stating that some stuff I'd said made him think, I went right into a supportive mode. I have to set my desires of where I want to see a person go (save out of the group and out of other groups), and let them figure it out for themselves. When their critical thinking kicks in, over time, it is the key to getting out of the mindset. What I've got to do is create a safe place for that person to voice their doubts without fearing reprisal, and snark is not very helpful when you're trying to do that. If that's all people encountered, no one would ever get out of these groups. But when he sent that unsolicited PM, I did become his ally in supporting his critical thinking and the journey away in some sense.

From the beginning, I've been saying "consider the source." As a friend of mine says, "these kids grow up in a box," and you can't compare them to your average person in the general population if they were raised in a group. He may be in his early 20s, but is it right to consider him to be like someone you know that is also that age? Probably not. People who grow up in these groups and live under bounded choice are quite different from the general population. And he has been away from home? What if that meant Bob Jones U or if being away from the group is working at a Christian book store, but it's not a VF one? People recruited and converted when they are adults have a different internal resources than people who grow up in these high demand, closed systems and don't have any other experience. And everyone is a bit different, so I think that it's hard to generalize.

So my personal goals are a bit different when I think someone's trying to think their way out of the mess. That differs from FJ's primary goal which involves snarking, and it's not a resource for people who want encouragement and support when they are questioning their place in a group. Although, some of that goes on here, and when people are pretty clear about having left a group or a mindset, FJ tends to be very supportive. My objectives changed at a certain point, and I think that's appropriate.

But let the people snark. That's the primary objective here. I'm just going to have a separate one in tandem of encouraging Knight to continue to question what he sees and observes in VF with my own objective of encouraging him to get out eventually. I don't think that FJ holds that kind of thing in contempt.

I'm cool.

[Shirley MacLaine]

He may be in his early 20s, but is it right to consider him to be like someone you know that is also that age? Probably not.

Well, given that Knight and I are roughly the same age I think it is right and, in my own way, respectful to treat him as a member of my peer group. I do not think we are alike in any ways that I know of, from taste in television to belief in biblical patriarchy (although I was raised in a repressive religious environment), but how then should I consider him? I mean, I get what you mean about considering the greenhouse he grew in, but should I be thinking of him or treating him as as a different and younger age?

[Brainsample]

Well, given that Knight and I are roughly the same age I think it is right and, in my own way, respectful to treat him as a member of my peer group. I do not think we are alike in any ways that I know of, from taste in television to belief in biblical patriarchy (although I was raised in a repressive religious environment), but how then should I consider him? I mean, I get what you mean about considering the greenhouse he grew in, but should I be thinking of him or treating him as as a different and younger age?

Shirley,

I think it depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

If you're here to snark and snark only, and you're a same-aged peer, then it's probably not a big consideration.

I have this naive idea that you can use sarcasm to illustrate the flaws in a belief system or behavior, and you can still be considerate of the person on a human level. There are all kinds of different people here, and I think that people do a lot of considering of where someone is coming from. There are fundie-lites here and fundie haters who do a pretty good job of staying out of the other's way, just out of respect and for pragmatic reasons. It's kind of a variation on that.

It can take many years for people to get free from these systems, and there is much to think through. This came up twice with me on the YUKU board, and I was criticized for being supportive and tolerant of another couple of hypocrites. One of the people that I defended even wrote to me and basically said that people who participate here cannot be Christians. I took disdain from both sides. (Yeah well.) But I suggested at least once on the old board that if people do want to see others come out of patriarchy, and that's also a declared interest here, you have to take where they're coming from into consideration. Some may want to encourage the person. I want people to get out, and if they express that or show signs of it, then I'm happy to cut them some slack.

It doesn't mean that anyone else should be compelled to do so. I'm just putting the suggestion out there, especially for people who were in this stuff and tried desperately to live it. It's not a standard for anyone. It's just how I approach it.

If he says something offensive or stupid, it's still offensive or stupid. Snark away.

[formergothardite]

I get the being raised in a box thing, my parents were reading me Gothard's character info from the time I can remember. I was horrified the first time I found out my lab partner in college Biology was Muslim! But, I got over it and grew up, since that is what adults do. I realized that people who are Muslim are no different than people who are Christian and it helped in the process of leaving my fundie beliefs. Knight told me that he left home, lived on his own, lived away from fundie lifestyle, studied other religions and still came running right back to Doug. So this isn't someone who has never left his daddy's side. If it was, I would give him more slack even with his age. This is a person who has purposely closed his mind to anything that might prove his faith in Doug wrong. He doesn't have faith in God, he has faith in Doug and what he teaches. I think this closed mind is demonstrated by him refusing to address any questions about his beliefs. I think he knows that he can't answer them and is afraid of accepting that the guy he worships is nothing but a scam artist. So he just sticks his fingers in his ears and goes "I have to watch Greys!" People who are firm in their beliefs, can stand up to questioning. He isn't, but isn't also willing to find out why.

I could be wrong, but just having come out of fundie beliefs myself and watched lots of people come out of them, he doesn't look like he is in the place where he is willing to question his beliefs IMO. I think he is just saying that to get people off his back.

[holierthanyou]

Question for Knight: After IFB, what denomination(s) are next best represented in Vision Forum circles? ATI?

[Boogalou]

Someone posted a picture here the other day that would be totally suitable for this thread. It was an elephant with a string tied around their trunk with the words "Free Jinger never forgets" on it. Since I can't find it or remember who posted it, I would like for everyone to imagine its brilliance.

[Hane]

Still waiting to learn how patriarchy would benefit this 59-year-old, self-supporting, financially comfortable, single UU grandma.

[Seven Severn]

Someone posted a picture here the other day that would be totally suitable for this thread. It was an elephant with a string tied around their trunk with the words "Free Jinger never forgets" on it. Since I can't find it or remember who posted it, I would like for everyone to imagine its brilliance.

imagine...imagine...imagine... Done. And, yes, it was brilliant.

[clarinetpower]

So, KisA just posted on the Fundie Masturbater post, proving he is lurking here. And yet? Ici, rien.

Come on, Kisa. We're waiting. Answer some/all of the questions that have been posed, whydoncha?

[marmalade]

I left chum....errrr....a question for him over on the Anna Duggar thread.However, I imagine like 5:00, Grey's is on somewhere and the Knight will make an escape worthy of Brave Sir Robin.

[holierthanyou]

Well alright then, can you tell us why you started this thread saying we could ask you anything but now you're ignoring all the questions?

[formergothardite]

Did he really think he could just come back and start posting and people would forget this thread ever happened?! He is dumber than I originally thought. And I left him a question in that other thread too. He ignored it, of course.

[gustava]

Oh shucks, ya'll. I thought he really had the balls to come back to us. False hope.

[formergothardite]

I think he came back to test the waters and see if all the little women had settled down and forgotten all this thread. Free Jinger doesn't forget, though.