RC Sproul Defrocked

[debrand]

I am trying to understand why RC Sproul was defrocked. On another thread, a poster added this link.

http://hushmoney.org/RC_Sproul_Jr-defrocking-docs.htm

Here are some quotes from the article.

A major factor in the decision to defrock R.C. Sproul, Jr. is that he did knowingly abscond with and use for banking and merchant credit card purposes the Tax Identification Number (TIN/EIN) of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP):

What does this mean? Was he involved in tax fraud?

On May 14, 2005 R.C. Sproul, Jr. and the session of Saint Peter Presbyterian Church voted unanimously to censure John Austin "for contumacy (failure to repent) by breaking his vows of membership." John's punishment included, "The refraining from all contact with your family by the other families in our church." In other words, the congregation of St. Peter Presbyterian Church was ordered to shun not just John Austin, but the entire Austin family, including Julie Austin and the Austin's five children. The majority of the St. Peter Presbyterian Church congregation dutifully complied, and only a few did not:

So, he told members of his own church to shun an exmember. I've never been to a church where the pastor had that much power.

If you know more, please post

[Guest Anonymous]

I've got a dear friend who once studied under the Senior Sproul (and has since left the Presbys due to their unresponsiveness vis a vis gay issues). Anyhoo he's been kind enough to send me this link which contains primary documents regarding the defrocking. The Sprouls have been on my radar for years.

http://hushmoney.org/R.C._Sproul_Jr._disclaimer.htm

[Creaky Mom]

Sproul's church ordered this family shunned.

Pdf file of actual documents.

parentingwithpurpose.net/pdf/

Their journal of what happened to them.

parentingwithpurpose.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=195&Itemid=1

[Austin]

I think there were a lot of things going on. From the Declaratory Judgment document:

The Burton Family in a letter to the Presbytery testified that: “Because of this we became more determined than ever to leave the church. R.C. and Laurence became just as determined that they were not going to let us go. They told us we had taken a vow to the Elders to stay in the church, and we could not leave unless they released us. They told us that we would never be able to join another reformed church if we were not in good standing with St. Peter and we would need their release for that to happen.â€

Mr. Brent Fontenot also wrote the Presbytery about the Austin Family and their treatment, stating that: “My family and I had only been members for a month when this meeting (head-of-house-hold meeting) took place and I found it very alarming. Evidently proceedings against the Austin’s had been going on for some time and we came in at the middle of it….Two elders spoke that night, Laurence Windham and Jay Barfield….I remember coming home that night and telling my wife that I felt as if I had been to a lynching. I also had concerns for what seemed to be an Auburn Avenue Theology persuasion in their teachings. This was enough for us to decide to leave….Keep in mind that we had been told by other families that there was a chance that the session would not allow us to leave and find another church in the area. After we returned home to Texas (Moderator explanation - Mr. Fontenot couldn’t find a job and used that as an excuse to return to Texas) we made contact with the Austin’s to find out their side of the story. After weighing the evidence and being witness to some of the abuses going on at St. Peter, we are sickened by the way this family was treated and feel like we have been mislead by wolves in sheep’s clothing.â€

Another individual who received some of the same type of abuse was Mr. Dennis Cochran. Mr. Cochran was not a member of St. Peter Presbyterian Church and in this way his story differs from the Austin’s and the Burton’s, but the manifestation of abuse was the same. Mr. Cochran who was under a doctor’s care, which resulted in his inability to hold employment, was told by Laurence and R. C. that if he joined St. Peter Presbyterian Church, he would have to stop taking his medication and find employment. Mr. Cochran determined to not join St. Peter Presbyterian Church and was aggressively confronted. Mr. Cochran’s letter goes on to note that the people at St. Peter began to shun him, but later it was dropped since he was attending Abington Presbyterian Church (PCA). Another family who experienced the same abusive behavior was the Hutchison family. They were a witness to the ‘shunning’ of Mr. Cochran, and then found themselves in conflict with the Session of St. Peter Presbyterian Church.

As for some of the tax stuff:

Added to this, Mr. Randy Winton has written in a letter to Westminster Presbytery stating that he was told to set up a credit card processing account and the bank required him to supply a Federal Tax number. Winton writes: “When I was asked to secure a credit card processing machine for the HSC, the bank asked me to furnish a tax i.d. number for the Study Center. R.C. told me he did not have one, but gave me one to use. If I am recollecting properly, I believe it was the denomination’s tax i.d.†It was not our denominations Tax Identification Number, but the tax number of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church. The Session has since sent a letter to the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) at the request of the moderator asking for their forgiveness in using the number. This illegal use of the tax number continues to be of great concern because it is a matter of identity theft under Virginia state law and Federal Statute. It is also a great concern that the Session of St. Peter Presbyterian Church stated it was an administrative oversight by the Session in using the tax number of the ARPC. The improper or unauthorized use of one or more identifiers belonging to another person or entity for the purpose of obtaining benefits or services is known as Identity Theft. Identity Theft is a crime in Virginia, and it may occur through nothing more than the unauthorized use of another’s Tax Identification Number (TIN). The Session of St. Peter Presbyterian Church committed Identity Theft by absconding with the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church’s EIN in order to open one or more bank accounts and a credit card merchant account: [statute cited]

Further at a prior presbytery meeting when someone ask the question about securing a tax number, Dr. R. C. Sproul Jr. jokingly stated that they should use the ARPC number, St. Peter was continuing to use it. At the time, no one really thought much of the statement, thinking it only an off the cuff remark, but we know now that they consciously were using a number not issued to their church, but fraudulently using a number given to a different ministry.

There is more having to do with dividing the congregation in unauthorized ways, using the wrong vows, and not adhering the Westminster Confession by preaching a theology about children, salvation, and communion that is in opposition to the Westminster Confession.

But those are the highlights, I think. Basically, RC Sproul Jr. is a bully and shady in his financial dealings, as well as teaching in opposition to the church's beliefs.

[Hane]

I look at these lengthy and detailed kinds of documents from various conservative Presbyterian congregations and, while I can understand (and kind of appreciate) their openness in posting them for the world to see, I can't help wondering, "Who the hell cares?"

It reminds me of the whole Jen's Gems debacle, in which, IIRC, she (Jennifer Epstein) and her husband were jettisoned from the Bourne "Christian" Assembly, and later on had trouble ingratiating themselves with another covenant/reformed-type denomination, which had some kind of "reciprocal shunning rights" deal with other churches of their ilk.

I morphed from Roman Catholic to UU in my fifties, and, should the Catholic Church ever show up with some kind of document announcing my excommunication, I'd just say, "And I'm supposed to care WHY, exactly? I don't recognize your claims of authority over me."

[mirele]

I just spent time working through the defrocking letter and it looks like the charges are these:

1) abuse of pastoral authority over members--in particular, advising the shunning of one family and giving advice to another guy to stop taking his medicine and go back to work when his doctor was advising otherwise. (By the way, that stinks like $cientology, not a good organization to be emulating.)

2) abuse of a Taxpayer Identification Number-- Sproul Jr. started up an organization called the Highlands Study Center. He didn't have a TIN when he went to open a bank account, so he "borrowed" the TIN of the church organization that he'd been in BEFORE he joined the RPCGA. I can't even begin to express how stupid that act was, because it opened up his former church body, his current church and any other related entities to IRS audit.

3) abuse of church order and governance--basically, not following the rules of the RPCGA. Specifically, he set up a mission church, sought to split St. Peter's into "parishes," and was ordaining men, all of this independent of the Presbytery, which is bad juju.

4) paedocommunion--meaning giving communion to small children based on what is believed to be an "incomplete" belief. This is apparently a huge big deal for these guys, who think that communion is somehow magical, meaning "if you don't discern the Lord's body right, you could DIIIIIIIIE" sense. Little kids apparently don't have it together enough for that discernment. Personally, I'd argue two things: one, Jesus said, let the little ones come to me and don't forbid them and two, I don't think anyone is competent enough to be able to "discern Jesus" in the way these generally pompously overstuffed men think they are. I could go on a long rant about this, but I'll shut up now.

Anyway, that's the long and the short of it, probably too much for the average person. The most juicy part for me is the TIN business, the rest of it is a big MEH.

[emmiedahl]

It is probably tax fraud as well. If he is using a nonprofit TIN for a for-profit venture, ya know.

[debrand]

I look at these lengthy and detailed kinds of documents from various conservative Presbyterian congregations and, while I can understand (and kind of appreciate) their openness in posting them for the world to see, I can't help wondering, "Who the hell cares?"

It reminds me of the whole Jen's Gems debacle, in which, IIRC, she (Jennifer Epstein) and her husband were jettisoned from the Bourne "Christian" Assembly, and later on had trouble ingratiating themselves with another covenant/reformed-type denomination, which had some kind of "reciprocal shunning rights" deal with other churches of their ilk.

I morphed from Roman Catholic to UU in my fifties, and, should the Catholic Church ever show up with some kind of document announcing my excommunication, I'd just say, "And I'm supposed to care WHY, exactly? I don't recognize your claims of authority over me."

The fact that RC Sproul could tell members that they couldn't leave his church and was taken seriously is proof that he was running a cult.

What is Sproul's connection with Vision Forum?

[Hane]

The fact that RC Sproul could tell members that they couldn't leave his church and was taken seriously is proof that he was running a cult.

Word. I truly believe any church group or organization has the potential to become a cult, given a controlling-enough leader and enough loyal followers.

[MamaJunebug]

Someone asked about the VF/Sproul connection. I Googled the words and came up w this:

http://www.google.com/search?q=vision-f ... ent=safari

The articles may reference Sproul, Sr. I'd look further but have to log off.

[hoipolloi]

The fact that RC Sproul could tell members that they couldn't leave his church and was taken seriously is proof that he was running a cult.

What is Sproul's connection with Vision Forum?

Sproul Jr & Dougie are/were BFFs for some years. Dougie would pay Sproul Jr to be a speaker at one of VF's bogus-ass conferences, and then Sproul would invite Dougie to guest-narrate one of the "Basement Tapes," propaganda put out by the "ministry" Sproul Jr runs, Highlands Studies Center. And so it went, with these activities lovingly documented in Doug's Blog.

As I noted another thread, Sproul Jr & Dougie haven't done much together recently - the last thing they were both involved in seems to be VF's 2010 Bay-bee Conference, where the Sprouls Jr were speakers. Perhaps Mrs. Sproul Jr's illness has meant that RC Jr has less time & energy to devote to these things.

Sproul SR. has not particularly had a VF connection although he occasionally appears in the Dougie chronicles, in much the way that Howard Phillips does. There was a website several years ago called Ministry Watchmen (now gone, with no trace that I can see) that had compiled information on what was alleged to be misappropriation of funds by Sproul Sr & his immediate family (wife, child/spouse, etc.). I don't recall that Sproul Jr was said to be a direct beneficiary of the alleged improprieties which were said to include exorbitant salaries, ministry funds diverted into nice housing for the family members on the pretext of these residences being ministry resources, etc. When I checked a charity watch website (http://www.ministrywatch.com/profile/li ... tries.aspx) earlier today, they said that Ligonier Industries Ministries was transparent but didn't make efficient use of its funds. No indication of previously alleged mishandling of funds so perhaps that was cleaned up, if it happened.

[NurseNell]

I morphed from Roman Catholic to UU in my fifties, and, should the Catholic Church ever show up with some kind of document announcing my excommunication, I'd just say, "And I'm supposed to care WHY, exactly? I don't recognize your claims of authority over me."

The Catholic Church could never catch up with everyone who has left. :hand: From what I understand the only time they publicly actually excommunicate someone is when they are a public figure who openly defies Church teaching. Nancy Pelosi and a few other Democrat politicians come to mind in their voting on abortion issues. But they continue to go to Mass and really don't care. Then there were some women who'd been ordained by a rogue bishop, they were excommunicated. But ordinary Catholics, no, they don't get excommunicated and they leave in droves. It kind of evens out somewhat by converts to the Church. This situation seems different in that it's one church, or parish, publicly excommunicating a family and encouraging the rest of the members to shun them, like they do in old order Amish.