Andrea Mills of YouTube infamy Had Cancer and Died

[Giraffe]

As posters over the past couple pages have noted different ways in which she felt “off” over the past few months, what has stuck out to me is how normal those symptoms were. Normal in the sense that if I were experiencing any of those I probably wouldn’t have seen a doctor, either. I’d chalk it up to working too much or a bad pillow or a bad steak or whatever else. But I truly don’t think i would’ve gone to the doctor either, and I have a lovely GP!

[moreorlessnu]

On 8/26/2019 at 9:41 AM, fundiefollower said:

Tom still used all of the toiletries he liked (foot spray, mouth washes, etc. he was always picking up things for himself)... Much more religion, less herbal/home remedy.

I liked the way they seemed to respect each other's choices with respect to (of all things) the foot spray. In a Walmart video, Andrea comments that she made him a foot spray remedy using her herbs. Tom comments (with a smile) that he likes the brand named foot spray better, as he puts a few cans in the shopping cart. She seems fine with his decision.

As for the "less herbal/home remedy", I wonder how much of that is lack of skills (just as he mentioned they wouldn't be sewing because that's something that only Andrea did), and how much of it is due to the fact that she felt ill for a long time, tried to treat herself with her herbal remedies and then found out too late that she had cancer.

 

 

5 hours ago, Giraffe said:

As posters over the past couple pages have noted different ways in which she felt “off” over the past few months, what has stuck out to me is how normal those symptoms were. 

Some of the symptoms, yes, but others, such as the slight change in her complexion color in one of the videos on the road should have indicated to her something was off. Granted, she was traveling and may have thought she'd address it once they arrived home, and her cancer may have been too far advanced at at that point. I also wonder if her self-treating with herbs added to the confusion when she did consult her doctors.

I'm sad she waited so long to address her health issues. She said she had felt tired and weak for months. I've seen cases like this with other people who generally avoid doctors; they only see a doctor when they are truly suffering. She may have had a better chance for survival if she had an ongoing relationship with a GP. Then again, it's possible this cancer would have been difficult to detect (and treat in time) regardless.

[moreorlessnu]

7 hours ago, Koala said:

 

 She was in total agony in the end, and sadly, on display for the whole world to see.  If that doesn't break your heart, I don't know what will. 

Interestingly, Tom has been quiet on Andrea's thoughts during the Friday->Monday time period, other than saying she had agreed to name the baby Cyrus Grant*, and when he asked her where she wanted to be buried, she didn't want to talk about it. While he did put video of her in the public view, he has kept her personal thoughts private. I wonder if he is keeping private what was important to Andrea to keep private. 

*In one video Tom said Andrea "hates" the name Cyrus, and yet told him he could name the baby Cyrus. In the video she made explaining each child's name, she said Claudia would have been named Cyrus had she been a boy. Since Hannah arrived after Claudia, I'm assuming Cyrus was the next boy name to be chosen. 

[Giraffe]

2 hours ago, moreorlessnu said:

Some of the symptoms, yes, but others, such as the slight change in her complexion color in one of the videos on the road should have indicated to her something was off. Granted, she was traveling and may have thought she'd address it once they arrived home, and her cancer may have been too far advanced at at that point. I also wonder if her self-treating with herbs added to the confusion when she did consult her doctors.

I was thinking this after I posted my response and was too lazy to edit. Yes, there was certainly a point at which the normal-ish symptoms were something more and worth consulting a doctor. I suspect even by that point it would have been too late to do anything. Yes, maybe she would have had a month or two to prepare rather than a couple days, but it sounds like the kind of cancer where even if she had been right on top of things she still would have died quickly from it.

[VVV]

I just want to say something about suggestions that Andrea Mills brought on her own suffering.

I think such suggestions come from the very normal and very human wish to believe that we have control over what happens to us. If we can find some reason why someone else became seriously ill, then we can make sure we are not similarly afflicted by simply not doing what the sufferer did or by doing what the sufferer did not do.

This is an illusion.

Yes, we have some limited control over our own health--we can choose not to smoke, we can choose to exercise, to avoid sugar, to use alcohol in moderation. And these choices do affect us. But they do not *protect* us nor are there any guarantees. Jim Fixx (author of The Complete Book of Running) died of a heart attack at 52.

Two anecdotes. Recently a friend was diagnosed with (and successfully treated for, thankfully) lymphoma. In retrospect, she realized that she had been having symptoms but at the time she attributed them to stress, to fatigue, to her normal life as a single parent. It would never have occurred to her to see a doctor for such vague, mild indispositions. Nor would it occur to most of us, nor, most likely, would it have occurred to Andrea Mills even if she had more trust in the medical profession--at least, not in time to stop the cancer. In my friend's case, she was diagnosed because her doctor had ordered a scan in an excess of caution, based purely on some family history. If she'd waited until she had the sorts of symptoms that send any reasonable person to the doctor, she'd be dead now.

And decades ago at age 32, I was diagnosed with a serious chronic illness after a lifetime of following every rule, and I mean every rule--no smoking, no drugs, barely any alcohol, regular exercise, healthy weight, and a personal life that was just short of being a nun. When I got out of the hospital, more than a few of my friends pissed me off by offering advice on how I could improve my diet or my response to stress. The subtext of their advice was, you did this to yourself because of something you ate, or didn't eat, or because you are a high-strung person. I am not a high-strung person and I eat better than you do, therefore I am safe from getting sick the way you did. Which is bullshit. I got sick because, well, because I got sick. It was likely in my DNA; other family members have the same illness.

So let's not try to comfort ourselves by explaining to ourselves and others just how Andrea Mills could have prevented her fate. Most likely, with this kind of cancer, she was a dead woman walking by the time she had doctor-worthy symptoms. And it could happen to any one of us.

Edited August 28, 2019 by VVV
grammar

[apandaaries]

Thank you so much, @VVV. 

There’s really no point in trying to blame the victim of cancer for her cancer. I’d love to see us move on from that idea. She had a rare, aggressive cancer that killed her too quickly, but it wasn’t a choice she made nor neglect which killed her. It was cancer.

[Coconut Flan]

In a follow on to you can't stop getting sick many times, my neighbor is a health nut.  She lives her life in fear of things.  She also happens to be fundie-lite which goes with her fearfulness.  She was astounded, absolutely astounded to be diagnosed with osteoporosis.  After all she had a book on how to not get osteoporosis and followed it religiously.  Sometimes it doesn't matter.  Her parents both died of heart disease.  She has been paranoid about this for years and seen the doctor regularly and monitored her diet and exercised.  She had a heart attack last spring a few months before the age when her mother died.  Again, she was shocked and appalled.  Some days we can't overcome our genetics no matter what we do.  Also she had gone to the doctor complaining of symptoms such as tiredness which according to my cardiologist would mean someone of her age and history should have had an immediate EKG and echo.  Her doctor told her she was anemic and ordered nothing beyond a basic blood test.  Should anyone blame her?  Should she blame herself?  

[smittykins]

18 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

You had some steady hands! I remember those discmans skipping after you moved a centimeter! 

IME, it was a “ya get what ya pay for” situation.  Decent brands like Sony or Panasonic skipped much less than the cheapies.

[turquoise]

Early detection can help improve the odds of surviving cancer, but it's not a guarantee. Some cancer is so aggressive there's not much that can be done. 

One of my coworkers (in his mid-fifties) died recently from colon cancer. A lot of information online suggests that colon cancer is typically slow-growing. But his wasn't.  He went through several different treatments, many of which had no effect at all, and others which helped for only a little while. He died a year after diagnosis.

He'd had a colonoscopy a few years earlier that didn't find anything. At first we wondered if the doctor had screwed up and missed something, but given how aggressive it was, I'm guessing it wasn't there at the time.

Even if Andrea had gone to the doctor earlier, I'm not sure it would have made a lot of difference in the outcome.  I'm very sad for her and her kids.

[Queen Of Hearts]

FYI, Tom put a survey on the You Tube channel asking subscribers if he should monetize.  Personally, I hope he does (and I suspect he already planned to before putting the poll out).  A lot of work has gone into that You Tube channel and people have gotten much out of it - both in terms of entertainment and information and I don't begrudge them getting a piece of the advertising pie.  Tom mentioned that he is going to plan to be home a second day during the week which will cut into his income.  He is adding this second day to coordinate with their homeschool schedule (one day will be for the start of their homeschool week to give lessons and get them started out on the right foot, and the other day will be at the end to grade, etc.  The You Tube money is going to help him be able to afford to do this.  He's using some good logic there.

Regarding schooling, if the nearest public school is 30+ miles away and the only local school is a religious school whose doctrine they don't agree with (owned by relatives, so I question how good of a school it is) they may actually be getting their best shot at an education at home.  Sad as it is, that is the reality for some ultra-rural areas.  With Tom home two days a week, Grandma Kitty helping 1-2 days, and the older kids and family friends helping out the rest the kids may just be okay here.

 

[FecundFundieFundus]

51 minutes ago, smittykins said:

IME, it was a “ya get what ya pay for” situation.  Decent brands like Sony or Panasonic skipped much less than the cheapies.

True. Let's call mine... Entry model. No shade to my dad- I'm a fully grown adult now and the other day I jumped into a pool with both my shoes and shirt on because I wasn't thinking. Then I did it again after lunch in front of all the same people. 

All the talk about ignoring symptoms has made me realize how many "symptoms" I ignore on a daily basis because it's probably part of my chronic illnesses. Things like brain fog (see above...ahem), balance issues, random aches and pains, headaches, fatigue, all sorts of things that *could* be signs of cancer are also things that a lot of people ignore because they're just part of life. Andrea was getting older, was pregnant again, worked day in and day out (she wasn't a very good person but dang she worked like a horse) and was probably very used to pushing through because there wasn't any other choice. 

[moreorlessnu]

I don't blame Andrea. I just wish things had been different. I wish she had an ongoing relationship with a GP. I wish she went to see her physician sooner, told them about her many different symptoms, etc.  We'll never know if a doctor may have suggested a CT scan (or whatever test would have detected the cancer), or, as others have mentioned above, if the cancer could have been detected sooner so that Andrea and her family would have had more time to plan.

[JenniferJuniper]

45 minutes ago, moreorlessnu said:

I don't blame Andrea. I just wish things had been different. I wish she had an ongoing relationship with a GP. I wish she went to see her physician sooner, told them about her many different symptoms, etc.  We'll never know if a doctor may have suggested a CT scan (or whatever test would have detected the cancer), or, as others have mentioned above, if the cancer could have been detected sooner so that Andrea and her family would have had more time to plan.

Agree about the time to plan, but selfishly speaking,  the less time I spent knowing I was dying the better.  

[EarBoy]

I joined (or re-joined, I was here years ago but never super active) just to comment on this thread. This whole thing has just made me really sad. I follow a lot of fundie families on YouTube just out of curiousity. Andrea's videos I really liked because I felt like she gave a lot of good organizational advice - I'm a single cat mom but I could still put some of her advice to use, lol. While I didn't agree with A LOT of what her and Tom believed, she seemed like a really lovely woman with a big heart.

In regards to her medical care, or lack thereof, leading up to her diagnosis, even if you do all the right things some cancers can be easily missed. There's another Youtuber I follow who recently died of pancreatic cancer. She was in her late 40s, very healthy otherwise, exercised regularly, watched what she ate, didn't smoke, rarely drank. She'd been seeing specialists for 10 years to try and figure out why she was getting abdominal pain, usually after eating specific foods. First she was told it was just food sensitivites so she tried cutting out foods that commonly cause issues (like gluten, dairy, etc), and when none of that was helping doctors insisted it was all in her head. She was seeing doctors for a DECADE, and it wasn't until she was in so much pain she couldn't sleep they realized, "whoops, it's advanced pancreatic cancer, there's not much we can do." 

Based on what I've read about Andrea's cancer, it's not a type that's easily diagnosed. Even if she'd been a hypochondriac and gone to the doctor for every little ache and pain, there's a good chance it would have been missed. Life is stupid and unpredictable sometimes.

[16strong]

I was reading on...Reddit, maybe? A story of someone's mom who was diagnosed with and survived bile duct cancer. How? She went in for a scan, iirc, a heart scan for unrelated issues. A very conservative doctor saw an almost imperceptible spot on her liver (about 1mm). Said "it's probably nothing, but let's go ahead and biopsy it anyway." That 1mm spot came back as bile duct cancer. They immediately removed a large portion of her liver and sent her through chemo and radiation. That is how you can survive bile duct cancer, on pure luck alone, and it was a very sobering portrait to me of a very devastating disease. I doubt Andrea could have done anything differently.

[Dandruff]

8 hours ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Regarding schooling, if the nearest public school is 30+ miles away and the only local school is a religious school whose doctrine they don't agree with (owned by relatives, so I question how good of a school it is) they may actually be getting their best shot at an education at home.

@sdjp123said there are public schools within walking distance of their home.  I also remember hearing Tom, on at least one of the videos, saying that he wouldn't send his kids to public school.

[Toto2]

Even if a doc suspected some problem with Andrea's liver, it would most likely have been attributed to her pregnancy.

Pregnancy (especially early pregnancy) puts a heavy load on the liver to filter toxins for both mom and babe.      I had severe itching and a slight colour change early in my 2nd pregnancy that was attributed to my liver needing to work harder and having to gear up to do that.

Some of Andrea's reported symptoms seemed likely unrelated.     Who thinks that backaches and bowel issues are connected?   Or headaches?       Too often women are discredited when coming forward with multiple symptoms.      And if a woman has any history of depression (including post-partum) or homone-related fluctuations, many doctors go there first and dismiss some of the physical symptoms presented.

I was told by a dermatologist that I had "delusional parasitosis".      In fact, the delusions were the doctor's.       I had a significant parasite infestation that caused skin lesions, huge irritation and great pain until I stumbled on an herbal remedy that got rid of it in a week, never to return again.    (At the beginning of my treating it, I had another doctor do a different set of blood tests that confirmed the presence of parasites ----- something the mysogynist dermatololgist refused to do.)     He also refused to look at my skin lesions with any mangnifying equipment, so great was his bias about women and skin complaints.     I was sure I could see tiny black things that moved and itched like crazy when I looked at my lesions with a magnifying glass.

Sometimes people lose faith in the medical profession for good reason.    For others, it's an issue of expense.     I wish we knew more details about what exactly Andrea was experiencing, and for how long, and what kinds of medical assessments had been done and what herbal remedies she'd tried.     It's possible that her herbal potions could have been keeping things somewhat at bay.   It's also possible that something could have been discovered sooner had medical treatment been sought sooner.     We'll never know.     

The what-ifs drive me nuts as I think of that huge family without their matriarch.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Toto2

[AliceInFundyland]

This thread has officially flipped into triggering my own medical paranoias. Time to move away.

 

[Curious]

10 hours ago, 16strong said:

I was reading on...Reddit, maybe? A story of someone's mom who was diagnosed with and survived bile duct cancer. How? She went in for a scan, iirc, a heart scan for unrelated issues. A very conservative doctor saw an almost imperceptible spot on her liver (about 1mm). Said "it's probably nothing, but let's go ahead and biopsy it anyway." That 1mm spot came back as bile duct cancer. They immediately removed a large portion of her liver and sent her through chemo and radiation. That is how you can survive bile duct cancer, on pure luck alone, and it was a very sobering portrait to me of a very devastating disease. I doubt Andrea could have done anything differently.

I had a similar experience, not cancer thankfully.   Before my surgery in 2005 I had been having symptoms similar to what I had before my 1997 surgery.   Not being a complete idiot (sometimes) I immediately found a spine specialist in our area because I had waited so long the first time I lost a lot of mobility.   I didn't want to lose more of what I had left.   Since we knew I had a history of lumbar problems and my symptoms were lumbar related, the dr felt like we could take our time diagnosing because lumbar problems are *generally* less serious and move slower.

Every time I laid flat on my back, I would lose a little more function.  I failed my first MRI because my leg started twitching involuntarily and I had a panic attack and they had to pull me out.   We had to wait a while to get a new one scheduled so I could have some IV pain meds going to try and keep things from twitching.    After that MRI I lost quite a bit of mobility again. 

We got the next one scheduled and I made it through it.  After that point I lost even more mobility and was to the point where my husband would get down on his hands and knees so I could push off him to get up from a seated position.   I remember days crying because he was on hands and knees in the bathroom so I could get up off the toilet.

When the dr. got the MRI films there was a weird "artifact" at the very top edge of the film.  He couldn't tell if it was something going on with my spine, a flaw in the film or something I had been wearing showing up or what so ordered a thoracic MRI.    I went in for that one several weeks later and by that point I was not sleeping at all because my legs were involuntarily twitching every 20-30 seconds 'round the clock.   They ended up putting me on valium in an effort to stop the spasms and keep me from literally having a breakdown because I was so exhausted and could not sleep at all.

The dr. called us in to talk about the thoracic films and he said it looked bad and it was above his pay grade so he was going to refer me to a colleague that was a neurosurgeon that specialized in the spine.   I figured it would be a few weeks at least to get an appt with that kind of specialist.  My appt was on a Friday and when we got home from Baltimore there was already a message on our machine setting up an appt for Monday with the specialist.   That is when I knew that "bad" meant BAD.

We went to the appt with the specialist on Monday and he basically said your options are surgery or paralysis.  He was confident that he could help me, but he wanted a better look because he couldn't tell if the problem was at the front or back of my spine.  He didn't want to open up my back and find out he should have cracked my chest instead (!!!!).   It was too late that day to do any testing so they scheduled me to come back on Wednesday for the myelogram.   

During the myelogram, they didn't listen to me and ended up paralyzing me (temporarily) so I was admitted to the hospital and had surgery the next day.

Thoracic problems are quite rare unless you are someone like a football player that takes a lot of hits to the torso or you've been in a bad car accident so it's not an area that doctors think first when looking for spinal problems.  You are far more likely to have cervical or lumbar problems.

If my spine dr. hadn't seen that weird bit on my first MRI, I would likely be fully paraplegic now rather than a partial paraplegic.   I have been quite lucky to have had great drs that have listened to me when it comes to my spine issues since I've moved out here.

[Queen Of Hearts]

8 hours ago, Dandruff said:

@sdjp123said there are public schools within walking distance of their home.  I also remember hearing Tom, on at least one of the videos, saying that he wouldn't send his kids to public school.

You are right - I checked Google maps and there is a public school in their town (I was going by another poster who thought the school was farther away).  It's good to know there is a local non-religious schooling option should Tom ever change his mind about home schooling.  In the meanwhile, I am glad he is choosing to dedicate two days at home to focus on their schooling himself.  That kinds of hands-on connection might just help him better accept the reality if they need to change approach in the future.

[Palimpsest]

Welp, I am guessing Tom is going to monetize the youtube channels.  Here's the survey:

Quote

So many people are telling me that we should monetize. We both have always been against it because we see what we are doing as a ministry to people, not something we are doing to make money. We also LOVE to be able to tell people who say "you are only doing this for views" or "You are selling your family for money on YouTube" that we do not monetize our channel. This instantly tells people where our heart is. The ultimate reason why we didn't monetize is because we did not need the money. It is seeming likely that going forward rather than spending one day working in my office, I will stay home two days to help test the children on their school and start off the school week helping with their goals. While I do get a lot done in the office, it will likely result in less income. I am sure we will still be fine without it, so I was wanting to see what the community thinks.

• Yes you should play ads on the videos and monetize the channel.
• No you should not monetize the channel.
• I don't care either way.

 

As of a few minutes ago he has 15K votes, and about 200 (probably all positive) comments. The votes are 78% positive and 17% I don't care.  And, for the record, I voted "I don't care" to see the results.

I really don't care if he makes money off his preaching channel and Andrea's old videos.  What is done is done.  I would infinitely prefer that he does not film the children in the future, however.  They deserve their privacy and I hope he considers that and protects them.

It is interesting that they were accused of selling their family for money on youtube prior to Andrea's death.  I think it is common sense not to put your family life out there in public.  But many Fundies sacrifice their children's privacy for their "ministry" if not for cash.  

As to how much money he will make, I don't know.  I expect the income will dwindle after an initial interest.   I found a calculator though.  https://influencermarketinghub.com/youtube-money-calculator/  Probably not very much.  I wonder whether he will look back and regret it.

He may also need to take down some videos if he does monetize and definitely be less controversial.  Advertisers may object to many of his views.

And I wonder who will watch his videos going forward.  He's not a charismatic guy and will almost certainly preach.   Probably a few people genuinely concerned about the children will watch and coo sentimentally.  A few predators who get off on watching children will watch attentively.  A few voyeurs who get a kick out of wallowing in others' grief will watch for a while.  And a few Fundies will keep watching.  The ones who agree with him.

And the GFM just went over 60K.  Tom is glad he doesn't have to pay taxes on it.  He and Asher planted a tree on Andrea's grave.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Palimpsest
fixed quotes

[missy1228]

20 hours ago, FecundFundieFundus said:

All the talk about ignoring symptoms has made me realize how many "symptoms" I ignore on a daily basis because it's probably part of my chronic illnesses. Things like brain fog (see above...ahem), balance issues, random aches and pains, headaches, fatigue, all sorts of things that *could* be signs of cancer are also things that a lot of people ignore because they're just part of life. Andrea was getting older, was pregnant again, worked day in and day out (she wasn't a very good person but dang she worked like a horse) and was probably very used to pushing through because there wasn't any other choice. 

I'm the same way! I have very severe fibromyalgia, so I have the brain fog, the balance problems (I run into walls a LOT), aches and pains all the time, exhaustion... and I always wonder if something serious happens, will I notice the symptoms or ignore them because I'm so used to feeling so ill all the time? It's a scary thing for people with chronic illnesses.

[Dandruff]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

And I wonder who will watch his videos going forward.  He's not a charismatic guy and will almost certainly preach. Probably a few people genuinely concerned about the children will watch and coo sentimentally.  A few predators who get off on watching children will watch attentively.  A few voyeurs who get a kick out of wallowing in others' grief will watch for a while.  And a few Fundies will keep watching.  The ones who agree with him.

I essentially agree but also think there are more than a few fundies who will keep watching - especially if he monetizes.  I hope any predators or voyeurs lose interest fast.  If he keeps the kids off the videos (at least for awhile) it might help.

I actually like his communication style, but I'm an IT type myself.  I wouldn't call it charisma but it's familiar.  I've known quite a few IT guys who were much less relatable than he seems to be.  Only one of the multitudes preached though...and he was crazy.

[FecundFundieFundus]

49 minutes ago, missy1228 said:

I'm the same way! I have very severe fibromyalgia, so I have the brain fog, the balance problems (I run into walls a LOT), aches and pains all the time, exhaustion... and I always wonder if something serious happens, will I notice the symptoms or ignore them because I'm so used to feeling so ill all the time? It's a scary thing for people with chronic illnesses.

Early in the summer I had a weird medication side effect and thought I had some kind of seizure (turns out it was most likely fainting- I had no idea you lose control of your muscles and have body spasms when coming out a faint). Definitely spent the time from waking up to getting all my scans back sure that it was something very serious and it was all my fault for thinking the warning signs were no big deal. I don't have anything actually helpful to say, just... I feel you, man. It is a deep dark scary fear that doesn't really go away

(On another note- do you use cheap concealer that matches your body skin tone for when you walk into walls? My husband thinks I'm crazy but I feel better! I hate admitting my badass looking bruises and scrapes are because I walked into a large piece of furniture)

[missy1228]

3 minutes ago, FecundFundieFundus said:

(On another note- do you use cheap concealer that matches your body skin tone for when you walk into walls? My husband thinks I'm crazy but I feel better! I hate admitting my badass looking bruises and scrapes are because I walked into a large piece of furniture)

No, but I probably should! I swear you can look at me funny, and I bruise. I am always finding strange bruises on my body and I have no idea where I got them. I always tease my wife and tell her people are gonna think she's beating me.