Status and age of women in marriage - TTW, Biblical Gender Roles and PP

[Hane]

@Cleopatra7 and @laPapessaGiovanna, back in the ‘90s, when I was a practicing Catholic, I attended a religious retreat. At the venue’s bookstore, I bought a book titled something like “How You Can Dissent and Still Be a Faithful Catholic.” It contained a chapter on the laypeople who participated in a papal contraception study during the Vatican II process. These people were strongly dedicated to NFP, and their objective was to endorse it—until they started admitting what a strain it was on their marriages.

The late Pope John Paul I was known to be considering approving the use of hormonal birth control, as he’d seen too many large families struggling with poverty when he was Archbishop. Then he died under shady circumstances only weeks into his papacy, and there was little or no investigation done or released.

[Marmion]

On 6/27/2019 at 10:42 PM, hoipolloi said:

This sounds like Vaughan Olhman , a troglodytic wack nut who also advocated that people, especially women, marry young. As you'll see at that link, he came to FJ's attention several years ago when he was trying to organize a "retreat" in order to marry off young people.

After he got too much heat for his fuckwad notions, he took himself offline for the most part.

 

Phil Robertson , of Duck Dynasty fame , is notorious for holding this view .  https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/01/11/on-child-marriage-kevin-swanson-and-dave-bruehner-defend-phil-robertson/ , https://www.huffpost.com/entry/duck-dynasty-star-phil-robertson_n_4522254

[Beermeet]

On 7/1/2019 at 8:54 AM, samurai_sarah said:

I grew up in a very Catholic region. Upon entering secondary school aged 12, we all had to introduce each other to our classmates. One of our classmates said she had thirteen siblings. What??? The average in my class was 2 kids per family. There was definitely some contraception going on!

Spoilered, because I ended up writing a novel about judgement, prejudice and just how weird it can all get in small Catholic communities:

  Hide contents

 

In a show of prejudice many parents told their kids not to play with her, because that family was clearly no good, totally irresponsible and probably Catholic fundies, indicating a lack of critical thinking skills! Within a week however, she had told the entire class that both her parents had kids from previous marriages and then had had two together. Oh, oops. The explanation that divorce was behind it all, was acceptable, in a twist that still boggles my mind. Suddenly, the parents were good people for bringing their respective broods together and creating a large happy family!

However, people kept on referring to my classmate's family as a reason for having only small number of kids. Three if you wanted to go all out. Four already took you into the realm of raised eyebrows. Unless, and here we go again, your youngest child was significantly younger than the three older ones. The "change of life child" was acceptable as a fourth.

As a man, if you had children past the age of fifty, the judgement was harsh. For one thing, you clearly hadn't married within your appropriate age group. For another, you were totally irresponsible, because you might die while your children were still young and your grandchildren might never know you. And people would call you a "rutting old goat" behind your back.

So, so much judgement in our small Catholic villages! But using contraception? That was the unspoken "correct" way for family planning, making you a responsible and respectable member of the community, by having only as many children as you could provide for and were socially acceptable. Words I often heard were: "The Vatican is far away and what do a bunch of celibate men know?"

It was a very strange mix of complete judgement and prejudice, deeply held faith, sparks of remarkable compassion and keeping up with the Joneses. Deeply Catholic, but please not too Catholic. Conservative, but please not too much. Traditional, but if it doesn't aid anyone, out of the window it goes.

 

 

That is totally my experience!  Italian Catholic from NY/LI/Connecticut.  That's how it was to a T.  

Edited July 4, 2019 by Beermeet
I'm trippin' out on that term. "To a T". Is it T? Tee. Tea. No, not Tea. How did that come about? Anyway, exactly what you said. So exactly, it's weird. Living in SoCal, there is no such community as I grew up in, here.

[Howl]

Kevin Swanson, from the interview referenced by @Marmion

Quote

By the way, my grandmother was married at 15. I think it was 15. My grandmother on my father’s side was married at 15. It was during the Great Depression. Her father had died and her mother was trying to provide for the 5 kids or whatever. So you know it just made sense.

This woman was married off at 15 because her mother couldn't afford to feed her. Desperate times lead to desperate measures.  Did she love the man (or boy) or have any choice in the matter? I'm sure Kevin never thought about that.  

Also, Phil Robertson has admitted to being a terrible husband for the first part of his marriage, which must have been horrible for his very young bride. 

And these middle aged and older men fantasizing about public school girls "fornicating" is creepy as hell and hugely ironic, considering the epidemic of of sexual predators among pastors, elders, youth ministers, choir leaders and congregants in their own denominations. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Howl

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

Kevin Swanson, from the interview referenced by @Marmion

This woman was married off at 15 because her mother couldn't afford to feed her. Desperate times lead to desperate measures.  Did she love the man (or boy) or have any choice in the matter? I'm sure Kevin never thought about that.  

Also, Phil Robertson has admitted to being a terrible husband for the first part of his marriage, which must have been horrible for his very young bride. 

And these middle aged and older men fantasizing about public school girls "fornicating" is creepy as hell and hugely ironic, considering the epidemic of of sexual predators among pastors, elders, youth ministers, choir leaders and congregants in their own denominations. 

Yeah, Phil and his wife started dating at ages 14 and 18 and got married at 16 and 20. Then they had kids right away. He was an alcoholic and a POS for years. But it’s all ok because they are rich and have a tv show. Fuck that. 

[Syriana]

The more I read some of the (seriously disturbing) things some so-called Christians spout, the more I wonder if any of them have actually read the Bible...or if they've done some selective reading!

Nowhere in Genesis is it suggested that Adam was given dominion over Eve, rather that they were both created in Gods image (first story of creation) and that no animal over which the Lord had granted Adam dominion was suitable as his helper thus Eve was created.  Looking at the origins of the words used in the Bible gives a very different slant on the meaning of some of these words as well - and not ones of submission or subjugation!

There's an interesting video by a Franciscan Frier on this subject:

Did God Create Women Inferior to Men?

He makes some very good points about text, context and how it's important to actually think.

 

On another point, any man who thinks marriage gives him open access to his wife's body needs to go back to the Bible:

1 Corinthians 13:4-5

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonour others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Taking that which is not freely offered is not patient or kind...it is certainly NOT honourable!

Edited July 4, 2019 by Syriana

[samurai_sarah]

On 7/2/2019 at 3:50 PM, smittykins said:

I could never understand how BC was bad, but limiting sex to the times you were unlikely to conceive was permissible.(Apparently it’s because “God designed the female reproductive system that way.”)

Thanks to a Catholic Youth weekend retreat, I know the answer!

It's because according to the RCC, sex within the confines of marriage isn't all about procreation, but about creating intimacy, and then there was something about women enjoying tender and gentle sex, because they want to feel accepted...and then I stopped listening, because I don't really like being told what I'm like by strangers, on the basis of my chromosomes.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Random Thoughts:

Ann Barnhardt is a certifiable BSC nut case.  That by the way is an actual clinical diagnosis.  I'm surprised she's allowed out without an attendant.

She  dropped out of high school because she "feared for [her] safety..." WTF?

She writes dates as October 26th ARSH 2011. What the heck is ARSH?

She says she saw "Sen. Lindsey Graham advocate for Sharia Law and the punishing of American citizens who “disrespected” the islamic political system and its manifesto, the koran..."  Is she sure this wasn't a dream?  Because I can't imagine Ol' Lindsey advocating for Sharia Law.

She calls people musloids?   Oh wait... I see what you did there Ann. A play on the old "mongoloid" term for Downs Syndrome. How clever (insert eye roll and snark emojis here)

Many of the uber conservative uber-Catholic mommy bloggers (I think of them as Catholicer-than-thou) don't even use NFP. They are like the fundies in that sex is only for babies,. Have all the babies. Have as many as possible, Keep having them no matter what. Your husband's stage 4 cancer is no excuse not to get pregnant  Many of them are Latin Mass only and Opus Dei. A lot of them home school to keep their uber pure Catholic children even more pure.  Many of them refuse to allow the children to have their own rooms, so you have 15 year olds sharing a room with 4-5 siblings including a 2 year old.  Like the fundies the older children parent the younger ones.

If you want to check out the 2 I find the most repellent, visit Catholic All Year (Kendra Tierney) = She can't use NFP because she can't keep from jumping her husband's bones. Or try Leila Miller at Little Catholic Bubble = Who refused to allow her daughters to attend college; pushed them into marriage at 18; and is absolutely obsessed that her married children all get pregnant on the honeymoon. She brags that all the married ones so far did. All her sons went to college by the way. As did Leila and her husband. It's where they met.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Red Hair, Black Dress

[laPapessaGiovanna]

4 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

She writes dates as October 26th ARSH 2011. What the heck is ARSH?

At first I found this and I giggled

I doubt fundies , Catholic or not, care about that. Upon further googling I think it's the first from this list, of course it's Latin.

It roughly means: years since humankind got saved, cos Annus Domini isn't enough if you are that bigot.

[Katzchen24]

Well, BGR is a massive ARSH. His blog is like a sewer of misogyny and bizarre twisting of biblical text to meet his meaning. The post on 29 June 2019 is another gem. 

The entire purpose of this post was seemingly to get from "Luke 6:31 “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise”  to "We should do unto others as God would desire us to want done to ourselves if we were in their position." Which makes my head hurt trying to work out what it actually means.

On his journey he gets to his favourite topic, marrying teh girlz, with "Based upon the clear teachings of the Scriptures shown above we can see that men should indeed desire to marry young women for sexual pleasure, for them to bear children and for them to guide and keep their homes."

Further down, somewhat incomprehensibly, he gets to "It is modern society that has invented two new social classes, Adults and Minors.  But God’s design has three social classes, Men, Women and Children." I'm not sure BGR understands what a social class is.

I need to go watch something with balloons and puppies in it to cheer myself up now.

 

[nelliebelle1197]

On 7/1/2019 at 9:53 AM, Howl said:

Is there any type of overlap with continued bitterness and frothing over the the Latin Mass as the only legitimate mass?  

OK, so I had to google "Catholic + latin mass and cattle futures" because I can never remember her name and yes, it brought up Ann Barnhardt, Ms. Latin Mass is the Only Mass as the third return! 

Really, Ms. Barnhardt is so far beyond WTAF wingnut in so many categories that her web site is a very very deep rabbit hole, but I highly recommend it for that very reason. 

My sense is that she's super high in the raw intelligence category while simultaneously a totally batshit fanatic.  She videoed herself burning a Koran book marked with bacon, quit paying taxes and was foreclosed on, closed her successful financial business, yada yada.  Anyway, you can start here: about Ann Barnhardt

Not sure if she's ever married.  And, relevant to the recent thread drift, here's her take on sex/reproduction/divorce and it goes about like you'd expect:   barnhardt.biz/2017/02/

There are photos after the first part, so keep scrolling down past the photos to get to the meat of her rant. 

If you decide not to read it, I'd just like to point out that she is too extreme for the Tea Party and Teavangelicals.  At first they loved her and then slowly started backing away, because, let's face it, she's rabid. 

 

Omg, Annie has a podcast now! I am so not going to listen.

[Katzchen24]

9 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Random Thoughts:

Ann Barnhardt is a certifiable BSC nut case.  That by the way is an actual clinical diagnosis.  I'm surprised she's allowed out without an attendant.

She  dropped out of high school because she "feared for [her] safety..." WTF?

She writes dates as October 26th ARSH 2011. What the heck is ARSH?

She says she saw "Sen. Lindsey Graham advocate for Sharia Law and the punishing of American citizens who “disrespected” the islamic political system and its manifesto, the koran..."  Is she sure this wasn't a dream?  Because I can't imagine Ol' Lindsey advocating for Sharia Law.

She calls people musloids?   Oh wait... I see what you did there Ann. A play on the old "mongoloid" term for Downs Syndrome. How clever (insert eye roll and snark emojis here)

I just had a quick peek down this rabbit hole. ? Wow, that's some pretty intense crazy. She really hates Pope Francis and FDR too. I'm saving this one for a rainy afternoon.

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

On 6/29/2019 at 11:11 AM, smittykins said:

I once read something by the late D. James Kennedy in which he bragged that the Christian school affiliated with his church should have X pregnant students based on enrollment, but they had none, because they taught abstinence!  I thought, “Yeah, and should you ever have one, you’d expel her so fast, her head would spin.”

Have you read The Feminine Mystique? The early marriage thing was actively promoted by the psychologists and sociologists of the day. It was a weird time.

[Four is Enough]

I found my mother's "Guide to Natural Family Planning" book in her dresser when I was putting folded clothing away...  I opened it, sat on the bed and started to read, and she found me.... 

I never had to put away my parent's laundry ever again, and

I never saw that book again, and

at about 13, I was scarred for life. I'm surprised that I knew what it was, but I certainly did.

 

A year or so later, I had a helluva bout with bleeding, was diagnosed with endometriosis, had blood transfusions, and the Catholic GYN I saw, the one with ten kids of his own,  (We're Catholic, too) recommended that Mom put me on the PIll without delay, to regulate my periods. Mother was having NONE of that. Someone (Who the fuck?) might find out.

Even though it might help me, and might have, at that point, even preserved my fertility, that wasn't going to happen.

[nausicaa]

On 7/4/2019 at 10:49 AM, Syriana said:

On another point, any man who thinks marriage gives him open access to his wife's body needs to go back to the Bible:

1 Corinthians 13:4-5

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonour others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Taking that which is not freely offered is not patient or kind...it is certainly NOT honourable!

I like to judge people first according to their own professed beliefs. Whenever I hear Michael Pearl discuss his marital sexual assault-a-thon on his honeymoon, where afterwards he made his wife walk barefoot over some painful broken shells (because he didn't think to tell her to put on some shoes and God forbid they turn around?), I always think, gee, Michael, is that what Ephesians 5:25 said?

Is this loving your wife the way Christ loved the church? Same for John Schrader, David Rodrigues, and Steve Anderson. (They sure as hell remember Ephesians 5:24 though, don't they?)

I also think of Corinthians 13:4-5 a lot as well. It bewilders me that these people read nothing but the Bible and yet fail so miserably at its major messages.

9 hours ago, Katzchen24 said:

On his journey he gets to his favourite topic, marrying teh girlz, with "Based upon the clear teachings of the Scriptures shown above we can see that men should indeed desire to marry young women for sexual pleasure, for them to bear children and for them to guide and keep their homes."

Oh, well I'm sure glad the man gets to receive sexual pleasure, have children borne for him, and have his home kept up. 

Sure is convenient there is only one sentient being in this set up. Would be awfully tricky if we had to actually navigate two people's wants and desires. ?

Edited July 5, 2019 by nausicaa

[FilleMondaine]

I read this topic with interest, because I watch news about child marriages, and because I am a big reader of history. The reason I bring up the history is because during the Medieval period--which wasn't so misogynistic as we think--married couples assumed  "the marital debt" that meant that each partner was accountable for the sexual satisfaction of the other. This system both acknowledged female sexual desire and also made sexual satisfaction a holy thing.

Anyhoo, back to the present, I was reading all this and thinking, "wow, those weirdos seem to have totally celebrated the Medieval "marital debt" but only kept the dude-part. Gross."

[AliceInFundyland]

ARSH - Animatronic Restaurant Survival Horror

??? Is this like Chuck E Cheese PTSD?

Ann is so whacky.

I think she's asexual. I also enjoy her secular pop culture tastes. She's one of those fundie people who can't seem to to full throttle out of evil Hollywood and has an interesting (and long) list of justified "okayed by me music and movies.

Intellect gone horribly wrong

[JermajestyDuggar]

Mr. Atheist did a show about a week ago on the BGR blog post about girls marrying young. If anyone is interested.

[Howl]

16 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

Ann is so whacky.

I think she's asexual. I also enjoy her secular pop culture tastes.

She's also way into weaponry.  Of course she is. 

[Katzchen24]

Now BGR has weighed in on the issue of oral sex following the comment made by TTW's humper, Trey. Go to BGR's blog post dated 21 July 2019. He refers directly to Trey. 

I'm not going to waste time on it other than to say neither of them say anything unexpected on the topic. However, Trey did say something interesting in one of the comments.

Quote

I can tell you that some of the most important and lasting lessons that I have been taught in life came as the result of being humiliated by someone. I can think of instances right off the top of my head where I was humiliated by my father, my mother, my pastor, my Jr. High principle, my first boss (when I was in Jr. High), my first boss out of college and others. The lessons that I was taught THOUGH those humiliations have stuck with me though a lifetime and I am appreciative of those who cared enough for me to train me in that way.

All of those are examples of being humiliated by people who cared for me and did what they did out of love for me. I can even think of a few instances where I was humiliated by people who did not love me and their motives were to hurt me but I also benefited by having my pride knocked down so that I could learn something. Humiliation, like many other things can be used for evil or for good and in certain instances, it can be one of the most loving things a husband can do… to humiliate his wife… to bring down her pride… so that she can see things more clearly… so that in the humility, she can learn something that she needs to learn… and be better off for it for the rest of her life.

So Trey seems to have been damaged at different points in his life, but instead of learning and growing because of his experiences, he's doubled down on it. 

[Syriana]

Quote

Humiliation, like many other things can be used for evil or for good and in certain instances, it can be one of the most loving things a husband can do… to humiliate his wife… to bring down her pride… so that she can see things more clearly… so that in the humility, she can learn something that she needs to learn… and be better off for it for the rest of her life.

I am quite certain that he wouldn't be so sure that deliberate humiliation can be loving if it were his wife humiliating him.  The implication of that kind of teaching is that men no longer need to learn, or at least there is nothing their wife can teach them.  That attitude smells of hubris to me!

[FunFunFundie]

On 6/27/2019 at 8:02 PM, Katzchen24 said:

 

The second was a video by Steven Anderson on consent and rape in marriage.  I can't remember when it was posted (I think it was fairly recently but refuse to hunt amongst the sewage for it again). As far as he is concerned, saying 'I do' is consent for the rest of your life as far as a married woman is concerned. I've never felt sorry for Zoo until I saw this. Regardless of the terrible things she does and believes, she has almost certainly been a victim of assault in her marriage. I also feel so terribly sorry for the Anderson daughters, and what they are being brought up to expect from their eventual husbands. He thinks women are essentially vessels for men to use as they like.

In one of her q&a videos, Zsu gave her opinion on this. It’s been a few years so I may have the details wrong, but she said that a woman should be ready to have sex every night and something like “it doesn’t take that long anyway.” Not like “my husband doesn’t last” but like “come on, you can do anything for 15 minutes.”

Oh! That was the same video where she explained that it’s a wife’s fault if a husband cheats, for not meeting his needs.

I’m sure she doesn’t feel that she’s been assaulted. I’m also sure it’s quite relieving for her when he’s gone 3 weeks out of the month now.

[DutchMommy]

On 7/5/2019 at 3:59 AM, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Random Thoughts:

Ann Barnhardt is a certifiable BSC nut case.  That by the way is an actual clinical diagnosis.  I'm surprised she's allowed out without an attendant.

She  dropped out of high school because she "feared for [her] safety..." WTF?

She writes dates as October 26th ARSH 2011. What the heck is ARSH?

She says she saw "Sen. Lindsey Graham advocate for Sharia Law and the punishing of American citizens who “disrespected” the islamic political system and its manifesto, the koran..."  Is she sure this wasn't a dream?  Because I can't imagine Ol' Lindsey advocating for Sharia Law.

She calls people musloids?   Oh wait... I see what you did there Ann. A play on the old "mongoloid" term for Downs Syndrome. How clever (insert eye roll and snark emojis here)

Many of the uber conservative uber-Catholic mommy bloggers (I think of them as Catholicer-than-thou) don't even use NFP. They are like the fundies in that sex is only for babies,. Have all the babies. Have as many as possible, Keep having them no matter what. Your husband's stage 4 cancer is no excuse not to get pregnant  Many of them are Latin Mass only and Opus Dei. A lot of them home school to keep their uber pure Catholic children even more pure.  Many of them refuse to allow the children to have their own rooms, so you have 15 year olds sharing a room with 4-5 siblings including a 2 year old.  Like the fundies the older children parent the younger ones.

If you want to check out the 2 I find the most repellent, visit Catholic All Year (Kendra Tierney) = She can't use NFP because she can't keep from jumping her husband's bones. Or try Leila Miller at Little Catholic Bubble = Who refused to allow her daughters to attend college; pushed them into marriage at 18; and is absolutely obsessed that her married children all get pregnant on the honeymoon. She brags that all the married ones so far did. All her sons went to college by the way. As did Leila and her husband. It's where they met.

 

 

Bolding is mine.

She explains this in her FAQ.
https://www.barnhardt.biz/faqs/ 

Quote

It is the abbreviation for the Latin, “Anno Reparatae Salutis Humanae” which means, “In the Year of the Reparation of Human Salvation.”  Why?  Because “Anno Domini” just isn’t quite hardcore enough for me.

Weird, weird woman...

[Topaz]

7 hours ago, DutchMommy said:

Bolding is mine.

She explains this in her FAQ.
https://www.barnhardt.biz/faqs/ 

Weird, weird woman...

Allllright then. But if she has to work with dates that refer specifically to salvation shouldn’t she be recalculating the years to start from when Jesus was killed/resurrected rather than using the same year numbers as all of the non-hardcore people out here who are counting from (approximately) the year he was born.

[CaseyGrace]

Vaughn ohlman in the comment section of the patriarchy podcast