Alyssa & John 2: Getting By on Their Looks and Fashion Sense

[Carm_88]

I can still do the mass off by heart. I'm a little confused by the whole "And with your spirit" part, but I think I would get it if I needed to. I went when I was kid with my Dad, my Poppy, my aunt, and my cousin. I went through all the normal Catholic servies from baptism to confirmation. I don't consider myself to be overly religious, but I fall back on it so often in hard times, that I can't say that I don't believe in it in some way. 

[kmachete14]

I mean if you honestly believe in the Catholic faith, you'd be going to mass every Sunday in order to be absolved of any built up sins from the week (you could die in a car accident at any time realistically), profess your faith, receive the sacrament of Communion, and keep holy the Sabbath. 

In fact, each Sunday Mass is an obligation. It is a mortal sin to miss Mass. 

So for all the "Chreasters" out there, I always wondered why they didn't switch to a religion that fit their beliefs/lifestyle. There are Christian churches that *Feel* very similar to Catholicism but have looser definitions of what is a sin/obligation/etc. 

The Catholic Church is full of hypocrites (to put it harshly) from the leaders down to the laypeople. I guess a nicer way to say it is that many people just stick with the Catholic Church out of comfort even though they don't believe in 98% of what it teaches or stands for. 

[just_ordinary]

13 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I can still do the mass off by heart. I'm a little confused by the whole "And with your spirit" part, but I think I would get it if I needed to. I went when I was kid with my Dad, my Poppy, my aunt, and my cousin. I went through all the normal Catholic servies from baptism to confirmation. I don't consider myself to be overly religious, but I fall back on it so often in hard times, that I can't say that I don't believe in it in some way. 

I feel similar. While not being very religious I enjoy going to church every once in a while (most years it’s just Easter and Christmas though). We went quite regularly when I was a child and when we visited my grandparents. Today it’s just a calming thing for me. I can take part without thinking about it because I know what to do, enjoy the singing and can let my mind wander of during the sermon. 

[lumpentheologie]

2 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

I mean if you honestly believe in the Catholic faith, you'd be going to mass every Sunday in order to be absolved of any built up sins from the week (you could die in a car accident at any time realistically), profess your faith, receive the sacrament of Communion, and keep holy the Sabbath. 

In fact, each Sunday Mass is an obligation. It is a mortal sin to miss Mass. 

This is the official line, yes, but religions aren't only defined by what those at the top of the hierarchy proclaim. Catholicism (and any religion, really) is defined just as much by what lay people believe and do as it is by what the leaders say. Religions are also about a lot more than what they believe, they're about what kind of rituals and services you feel comfortable with, what denomination you identify with culturally, who you want to spend time with during your religious practices, and how that religion fits into your personal morality.  Defining a denomination solely by what you're "supposed to" believe is historically a very Protestant way of looking at religion, whereas Catholicism has traditionally been more about what actions you do and who you do them with. It definitely adopted more of an emphasis on belief during the Counter-Reformation, but that hardly defines what Catholicism is as a whole. "Cafeteria Catholics" are, anthropologically at least, a pretty essential part of modern Catholicism, and putting them in the same category (hypocrites) as a church hierarchy that protects child molesters is, as you say, pretty harsh. 

[just_ordinary]

2 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

I mean if you honestly believe in the Catholic faith, you'd be going to mass every Sunday in order to be absolved of any built up sins from the week (you could die in a car accident at any time realistically), profess your faith, receive the sacrament of Communion, and keep holy the Sabbath. 

In fact, each Sunday Mass is an obligation. It is a mortal sin to miss Mass. 

So for all the "Chreasters" out there, I always wondered why they didn't switch to a religion that fit their beliefs/lifestyle. There are Christian churches that *Feel* very similar to Catholicism but have looser definitions of what is a sin/obligation/etc. 

The Catholic Church is full of hypocrites (to put it harshly) from the leaders down to the laypeople. I guess a nicer way to say it is that many people just stick with the Catholic Church out of comfort even though they don't believe in 98% of what it teaches or stands for. 

I don’t know where you from part from the parts of Europe I have been to I can say that almost every Christian is like that. In fact, Catholic’s are more trying than most Protestants. Protestants are way more often „Cafeteria Christians“ around here. Often you just hold the religion you are born into without deeper feelings about it. Baby christenings are often the norm and you jut go with it because religion or church has almost no impact on your life. Switching would mean you really have some kind of revelation about your believes and honesty that is just not something that happens a lot.

[WiseGirl]

5 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

Religions are also about a lot more than what they believe, they're about what kind of rituals and services you feel comfortable with, what denomination you identify with culturally, who you want to spend time with during your religious practices, and how that religion fits into your personal morality.  

Absolutely.  You put it a lot more eloquently than I could. 

[Anna Bolinas]

I don't go to church anymore, but I still consider myself a cultural Catholic. I was born into a family that was Catholic on both sides, I was baptized, I went to CCD, I celebrated my First Holy Communion and my Confirmation; and even though I haven't been to church in probably 7 years now, I still would feel more comfortable going to a Catholic mass than any kind of Protestant mass because it's what's familiar to me. And the effects of being brought up in the Catholic faith don't go away just because I stopped going to church. I still have a knee-jerk defensiveness when the topic of Catholicism comes up lol. 

[kmachete14]

I was also brought up Catholic, and part of the Catholic faith has many wonderful things about it (social justice, for one). 

However, what I don't get is that there are Catholics who want to make abortion illegal, gay marriage illegal, gay adoption illegal, etc. Yet they use birth control, masturbate, say the Lord's name in vain, don't go to Mass, etc. To me, that hypocrisy is *almost* as damaging as covering up pedophile priests. 

It's hard for me to be okay with people who reconcile the horrible beliefs of the Catholic Church, and the hypocrisy within it, because they find the services comfortable or like the rituals. It's just something I will never understand and what drove me to leave the Church. I would almost have respected the congregation more if they had lived out the beliefs they supported by association. 

I know, it's harsh. 

One of my high school religion teachers framed it as "all demoninations are boats with holes in them, but Catholicism has the least holes." Some Catholics are fine with that explanation -- I was not, and got off the "boats" all together. 

 

 

 

 

[Anna Bolinas]

I agree that there is rank hypocrisy in Catholicism, as in pretty much every religious denomination. There's always going to be people who say, "Good for me, but not for thee." And I left the church for a variety of reasons, but the main one was the refusal to condemn pedophile priests simply because they were priests and that somehow put them above the law. And even though I would feel more comfortable at a Catholic mass, I would still feel some discomfort because I would be thinking about the victims of pedophile priests and wondering if the priest preaching to me was guilty either of sexual assault himself or guilty of sheltering other priests.

At the same time, I can't pretend like being raised Catholic has had no influence on me. So I have to kind of thread the needle between renouncing the faith but still feeling a connection to the culture of Catholicism. 

[SassyPants]

Former RC switched to UU several years ago. The principles of  the UU denomination very much resonate with me.

[nelliebelle1197]

On 1/28/2019 at 1:34 PM, TatiFish9 said:

I agree with all you said espeically this part. Man she wants that main stream life so badly it is starting to show. She home schoold her oldest( can't remember the child's name at this moment). But she wants to floss those 1st day pics like kids going out of the home for school. 

I think the reasons you put are spot on. And unlike, say Jinger - who I suspect was mixed up in newness and influence, I think Alyssa wants a more mainstream life more for practical reasons and her personal religious beliefs. And I think she doesnt believe half what her parents believes, but she is conservative (like many non practicing Christians around the world) so her politics will mostly stay in tact. I gotta check her page again for more examples once she rebuilds it.

Where do you get your information? Are you linked telepathically with Alyssa? And you know that many, many homeschoolers do the first day of school pics, right? You know that is super common, I assume, and nothing special, right?

[ShesCrafty]

28 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Where do you get your information? Are you linked telepathically with Alyssa? And you know that many, many homeschoolers do the first day of school pics, right? You know that is super common, I assume, and nothing special, right?

I agree. None of the Bates (so far) have given any indication they are moving away from the hideous beliefs of their parents, other than superficial stuff like wearing pants. You could possibly argue Zach and Whitney have changed in more meaningful ways but none if the others. Some of the posts on the Bates threads recently are bordering on fanfic. 

[Hisey]

7 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Where do you get your information? Are you linked telepathically with Alyssa? And you know that many, many homeschoolers do the first day of school pics, right? You know that is super common, I assume, and nothing special, right?

Why does everyone assume that the 19 Bates kids and the 19 Duggar kids all think exactly like their parents, and share the exact same beliefs? That is so unlikely.

They don't need to advertise this to the entire world. Like most young adults, they probably want and need to keep their connection to their parents. But I'm sure plenty of them think it's absurd to have chaperones for 20 something couples, or for boys to run a 5K in long pants or for dancing to be banned at a wedding. The kids that are gay (there must be some) and the siblings they are close to probably feel uneasy and pained by their parents ant-gay rhetoric. And there may even be some forward-thinkers who question their parents inflexible prolife rhetoric.

38 young people do not all think exactly the same.

 

[just_ordinary]

52 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Why does everyone assume that the 19 Bates kids and the 19 Duggar kids all think exactly like their parents, and share the exact same beliefs? That is so unlikely.

They don't need to advertise this to the entire world. Like most young adults, they probably want and need to keep their connection to their parents. But I'm sure plenty of them think it's absurd to have chaperones for 20 something couples, or for boys to run a 5K in long pants or for dancing to be banned at a wedding. The kids that are gay (there must be some) and the siblings they are close to probably feel uneasy and pained by their parents ant-gay rhetoric. And there may even be some forward-thinkers who question their parents inflexible prolife rhetoric.

38 young people do not all think exactly the same.

 

It’s complicated- while I am sure not all of those kids hold the same believes anymore we will never know who it is as long as they don’t say so publicly. Some might even leave Fundamentalism and we will not notice it. They have no obligation to publicly announce that. Our discussions have probably no impact on their lives so there is no need for them to make sure we know it. We see many of them making changes in smaller, superficial  territories (skirts, dancing, alcohol, piercings, shorter hair, cleavage) but as far as I am aware they still fit the dictionary definition of fundamentalist and check the boxes anti-abortion, anti-lgtbq, female submission/male headship especially in spiritual questions and courtships. Every visible little change can if course be a sign that maybe they are shifting also on more important topics in the background. They might also leave religious fundamentalism behind and still vote to suppress women and the lgbtq community. We won’t find out about it if they don’t say so. But who knows- maybe they all will toe the party line. It’s the same with the speculation that at least one has to be not cis and straight. That is not how statistics work. It wouldn’t be a statistical anomaly if all are cis and straight.

I think it is absolutely fine to discuss and judge them as still fundie or question if the changes we have seen may be part of a bigger shift. It gets dangerous when we write as if we truly know what’s in their head. In that case the “still fundie” fraction has more points. I definitely suspect that some have left the IBLP cult spiritually but are still fundie, and there are two or three that I can see shifting from religious fundamentalism to be religious conservative assholes.

My hope for this second generation is that they stop with the physical harm for their children. No more Pearls or Enzo. No blanket training and no more complete obedience. That alone would be a big win.

[lumpentheologie]

16 hours ago, kmachete14 said:

However, what I don't get is that there are Catholics who want to make abortion illegal, gay marriage illegal, gay adoption illegal, etc. Yet they use birth control, masturbate, say the Lord's name in vain, don't go to Mass, etc. To me, that hypocrisy is *almost* as damaging as covering up pedophile priests. 

It's hard for me to be okay with people who reconcile the horrible beliefs of the Catholic Church, and the hypocrisy within it, because they find the services comfortable or like the rituals. It's just something I will never understand and what drove me to leave the Church. I would almost have respected the congregation more if they had lived out the beliefs they supported by association. 

I know, it's harsh. 

Thanks, I understand what you mean more now.  

I guess in the case of lay people I don't consider it hypocrisy so much as exercising independent judgment. In any religion you're always going having to choose that teachings to follow and what not to unless you completely outsource your judgment to a religious leader. Which is exactly what a lot of religious leaders want, but that's a big red flag. I think "if you really believed, you'd do everything so-and-so says" is some spiritually abusive shit on par with "if you really loved me, you'd do whatever I want." 

Questioning that seems really healthy to me.  It people accept reasons for doing things other than 'because God says so' it opens them up to critically evaluating their beliefs and maybe changing them. I'm also upset by Catholics who advocate against gay rights and abortion rights, but I think it's actually better for the world if they also decide birth control is okay. It would be even worse if they were having kids they didn't want--kids that might be neglected or forced to become sister-moms. If they can decide the church is wrong about this, they can decide it's wrong about other things. The problem here is the harmful beliefs about gay rights and abortion, not the inconsistency. 

My family is Catholic. My parents stopped going to church when I was very small because my mother learned the local priest was a pedophile. When they went back after moving do a different state, I decided I didn't want to be part of a denomination that didn't let women into the same leadership positions as men, that didn't let women have control over their bodies, and that didn't affirm my gay brother. After the sex abuse scandals came out that solidified my decision. But that's an individual choice and I respect people who stay and try to reform it from within.  My father, for example, is currently trying to get all the parishes in his area to sign a letter of support for a bill that will probably be coming up soon in the NY legislature to extend the statute of limitations on sexual assault.

For a lot of people the church is their home, and saying you should find another denomination that's more in sync with what you believe is kind of like saying that anyone who doesn't like how things are in the US should just move to Canada. I've tried going to Episcopal churches, and it just doesn't feel the same, so I've pretty much resigned myself to being spiritually homeless.  But the Catholic Church is an organization that can be used to help people or to harm them, and there's nothing hypocritical about trying to make sure it's mostly used for good.

[Hisey]

7 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

as far as I am aware they still fit the dictionary definition of fundamentalist and check the boxes anti-abortion, anti-lgtbq, female submission/male headship especially in spiritual questions and courtships.

Why? Because their parents think this way? Plenty of Bates/Duggar kids have not said a word on these subjects.

It's bad enough for these kids that they grew up in fundamentalist families. I'm not going to tar them with the same brush as their parents, without proof.

[SassyPants]

Actions speak as loud as words.

[formergothardite]

Any signs the Bates kids aren't cool with their parents running a cult and have dropped their parents dangerous beliefs? 

As long as they are participating in a show that sugar coats evil, the adult kids are going to get tared with the same brush as their parents. They adults are active participants in normalizing hatred. 

[Hisey]

35 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

As long as they are participating in a show that sugar coats evil, the adult kids are going to get tared with the same brush as their parents.

Well, that makes it more fun for you. It's the easy thing to do! But you are also adding to the burden these kids carry.

I think getting hit with plumbing line as a  5 year old is sad enough. I'm not going to damn them as adults until they give me reason to.

I'd hate it if people thought I shared my parents' belief--I am their polar opposite.

In fact, lots of people on FJ have rejected their parents' fundamentalist beliefs. These folks were once 17-year olds in frumpers. I wonder how many people made wrong conclusions about them?

[formergothardite]

15 minutes ago, Hisey said:

In fact, lots of people on FJ have rejected their parents' fundamentalist beliefs.

Sure they do. They also don't keep on trying to make fundie beliefs look cute and cuddly once they reject those beliefs and realize how bad they are. 

If they have changed their beliefs it is pretty damn bad that they are helping to hurt others by making these dangerous beliefs look harmless. Not only are they continuing cycle by exploiting their children for money on television, they are also helping to normalize hate. 

And again,what signs do you have that they don't share their parents awful beliefs or they don't approve of their parents running a cult? 

[QuiverDance]

On 2/2/2019 at 11:44 AM, mstee said:

 I put my hands out for communion and the priest shouted “children will open their mouths for communion here!”  

That is weird as all get out.

On 2/2/2019 at 12:57 PM, VelociRapture said:

It’s interesting to read about everyone’s experiences. My mom is Catholic and she made us go through CCD - which I hated - but the only times we went to Mass were for special occasions, like First Communion or Confirmation. I think my mom hated being dragged to Mass as a kid and decided it wasn’t something she wanted to make us do, which was kind of awesome. My husband was also raised Catholic and I think his family was more observant when he was young. His parents got turned off by their Church's constant demands for more money when they were barely keeping a roof over their heads though (New York was expensive back in the 80s and 90s too) and when they moved out here the local Catholic Churches didn’t send anyone over to welcome them like other Churches did. As a result his parents haven’t been observant for probably close to twenty years and they don’t really know what they believe anymore. 

My husband and I don’t really identify as Catholic anymore, so we opted against being married in the Church and we decided not to baptize our daughter. I thought we’d get a lot of crap for that, but the only person even slightly surprised was my mom and she hasn’t mentioned it since we told her. If our daughter eventually shows curiosity then I’d be happy to take her to whatever religious service she’d like, but husband and I want it to be something she chooses for herself rather than something she feels forced into. None of our siblings are religious either. The only one who goes to any Church occasionally is my older sister, but that’s because it was important to her husband that their kids were baptized in his faith (Episcopalian.) 

(I didn’t mention my dad above. He was baptized Catholic like his mom wanted, but confirmed as a Methodist because he was mostly raised by his dad and paternal grandparents after his parents divorced. He doesn’t seem religious at all though - he cracked up during my cousin’s son’s baptism a few years ago because I jokingly whispered, “Snack time!” to him when it was time for communion. Mom didn’t find it funny. ?)

This is how I'm choosing to approach religion with my kids, too.  My daughter is baptized, but in the Methodist church.  My son is not baptized at all.  He and I have discussed whether he would like to be on many occasions, but he does not believe God is a real thing, doubts Jesus existed, thinks religion is just a way to "make people do things you want them to do" (his words), and doesn't understand why people think their religion(s) are more correct than others'.  My mother would be horrified, but honestly, I remember having the same thoughts as my son when I was his age (he's almost 10), and I'm not going to attempt to change his mind. 

We don't attend Mass or Methodist services any more, but if my kids express interest in going, I'll facilitate.  

What I am very worried about, however, is the possibility of someone else indoctrinating one or both of them sometime down the road.  I hope I am doing well with instilling critical thinking skills.  We live in a very religious area, and this possibility is real.

[nickelodeon]

11 hours ago, Hisey said:

Why does everyone assume that the 19 Bates kids and the 19 Duggar kids all think exactly like their parents, and share the exact same beliefs? That is so unlikely.

They don't need to advertise this to the entire world.

They advertise literally everything else to the entire world, so...

2 hours ago, Hisey said:

Why? Because their parents think this way? Plenty of Bates/Duggar kids have not said a word on these subjects ["anti-abortion, anti-lgtbq, female submission/male headship"]

I mean, yes, Judson Bates has not yet shared his pro-life praxis with us, but the second-gens with social media have almost all posted (presumably sincere) sentiments about their support for some or all of those causes. (Think of Jill's "praying my sons will be cis and straight" post, Josiah's "crying about abortion" post, Zach on his knees begging God to make Donald fucking Trump president, Lawson retweeting a billion posts calling abortion "infanticide" just last night, etc. etc. etc.) While things like Zach contradicting his parents' courtship dogma to their faces, or Erin's comment about not being connected to ATI, are interesting, it's clear there's a lot of IBLP stuff that they have no intention of unlearning.

[just_ordinary]

The several responses to the NewYork(?) bill are actually a relief. Finally many take a public stand on a serious matter. Posting sweet pictures of children mostly  does not tell us where the stand politically and/or religiously. I am especially happy about Erin’s post as she and Chad somehow get so much love here sometimes.

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

it's clear there's a lot of IBLP stuff that they have no intention of unlearning.

They also seem to work hard to not be open about their IBLP connection. If one didn't know they ran a cult you couldn't tell by watching their show or looking at their social media. There is a lot they leave out. 

[Hisey]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

And again,what signs do you have that they don't share their parents awful beliefs or they don't approve of their parents running a cult? 

That's easy! The Bates and Duggar kids have done lots of things to show they don't hold their parents' awful beliefs. I've seen Duggar and Bates kids do the following:

Watch TV (multiple Duggar and Bates kids)

Wear pants very soon after being married (Josie, Alyssa, Jill Duggar, etc)

Let their kids watch TV, including secular TV shows (Jessa Duggar)

Watch secular movies 

Take their kids Trick or Treating (Allie, Lexi and Zoey Webster)

Have dancing at their wedding (that's happening in May with Carlin Bates)

Drink alcohol (can't remember but I believe it's happened)

Dress their little girls in pants (multiple little Duggars and Bates)

Let their little boys play with dolls and carry purses (Carson Paine)

Put their little girls in regular bathing suits in public places (Allie Webster)

Wear clothes that are clearly not fundie-modest, and often are quite revealing (in a normal way) (Alyssa Webster, Carlin Bates, etc)

Wear high heels (tons of the girls)

Fail to attend their parents' church, even when their father is the preacher (Erin Paine, and the visiting Webster family came along)

Wear tons of makeup (all the Bates girls)

Wives get jobs even when they have small children (Alyssa, Whitney)

Get piercings (Jill Duggar)

Men choose jobs where they have a boss instead of being an entrepreneur (Zach and Trace, among others)

Kiss before marriage (and who knows what else they did) (Zach Bates, you naughty boy!)

This is just off the top of my head. I could probably come up with a lot more. Bear in mind, this is the stuff they tell us. Who knows what they don't share with us. They know that by rejecting the big stuff they will hurt their parents' brand.