Off the derech - Jews leaving Jewish Fundiedom

[icecreamycakeycake]

Sort of.

Traditional (Orthodox and Conservative) Judasim recognizes the child of a Jewish mother as Jewish, period. Therefore, my Cuban/Colombian cousins who proudly showed us their huge Nativity scene and treated us to a ham dinner on Christmas would be considered to have the same Jewish status as I do, because we share a Jewish great-grandmother on the maternal line.

Reform Judaism, however, says:

So, they would recognize someone with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother who identified as Jewish and showed it through some sort of public acts/observances, but they would not recognize people like my cousins. I'm not 100% on how they would treat kids who are raised in more than one faith.

OK, let me get technical here... I have Jewish Great Grand parents, a Jewish Grandfather and a Jewish Father, do I need a Jewish soul, or am I good to go with the bloodline?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Traditional Judaism - the Jewish soul comes with the maternal bloodline only, unless you convert. [There's a mystical teaching that every Jew has a Jewish soul, even if it's really, really hidden.]

Reform Judaism - you need to do something Jewish to show that you identify as Jewish.

[icecreamycakeycake]

Traditional Judaism - the Jewish soul comes with the maternal bloodline only, unless you convert. [There's a mystical teaching that every Jew has a Jewish soul, even if it's really, really hidden.]

Reform Judaism - you need to do something Jewish to show that you identify as Jewish.

Right, but you said your cousins are afforded Jewish status, because of the maternal GG. My Maternal GG was Jewish, so would this apply to me as well, or does it follow the Maternal line all the way down? I'm only curious, this in no way affects my life or beliefs, I've just heard different rules from different people on how the bloodline works and want the straight dope. :)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Right, but you said your cousins are afforded Jewish status, because of the maternal GG. My Maternal GG was Jewish, so would this apply to me as well, or does it follow the Maternal line all the way down? I'm only curious, this in no way affects my life or beliefs, I've just heard different rules from different people on how the bloodline works and want the straight dope. :)

If your mother's mother's mother was Jewish, then you would be considered Jewish by Orthodox and Conservative Judaism.

[ilovetchotchkes]

If your mother's mother's mother was Jewish, then you would be considered Jewish by Orthodox and Conservative Judaism.

What if this line was all Reform Jews? does it still count? (not in my case but i'm curious~ I have a feeling that even though I'm a Jewish convert, my son isn't considered "Jewish" by Orthodox folks even though we're definitely raising him Jewish, well, it depends on the person individually but the way some of them see it...)

[chiccy]

What if this line was all Reform Jews? does it still count? (not in my case but i'm curious~ I have a feeling that even though I'm a Jewish convert, my son isn't considered "Jewish" by Orthodox folks even though we're definitely raising him Jewish, well, it depends on the person individually but the way some of them see it...)

An Orthodox beit din would only count someone as Jewish for the purposes of lineage if they were an Orthodox convert or born Jewish (=mother a born Jew or an Orthodox convert). Even someone whose mother was a Conservative convert and whose father was a born Jew would absolutely not count :cry: ....The Orthodox are very strict about these things, and they go to great lengths to determine it accurately according to their standards, especially if it's a question of shidduch or something.

[ilovetchotchkes]

An Orthodox beit din would only count someone as Jewish for the purposes of lineage if they were an Orthodox convert or born Jewish (=mother a born Jew or an Orthodox convert). Even someone whose mother was a Conservative convert and whose father was a born Jew would absolutely not count :cry: ....The Orthodox are very strict about these things, and they go to great lengths to determine it accurately according to their standards, especially if it's a question of shidduch or something.

Dats what I thought. Doesn't matter to me but I was curious. :)

[QAF_Rocks]

If someone really wanted to be accepted by the ultra-orthodox world, couldn't they just say their mother or grandmother or great-grandmother was Jewish? If they lied, I don't see how they would be found out. It's not like there's a national registry of Jewish people.

[FaustianSlip]

Oftentimes (always?) people unknown or less known in a particular community will be asked to "prove" their status, typically by producing parents' or grandparents' ketubot or photos of gravestones or things like that. This has been occurring with increasing regularity in Israel, where marriage is performed only by the rabbinate, and there is no civil option. More and more secular couples, or simply couples with less-documented ancestry have been having their Jewish bona fides questioned when they try to marry, try to bury a family member or mark other lifecycle events. There's actually a charitable group that deals solely with helping these families prove their Jewish status. I find it pretty sick, actually, and it's a major reason that I don't ever see myself making aliyah. I have deep-seated problems with the complete lack of separation between synagogue and state there, and I think it's resulting in more and more violations of people's civil rights (particularly women) as the Haredi influence on the government grows. Thanks, but no thanks.

[RR88]

Oftentimes (always?) people unknown or less known in a particular community will be asked to "prove" their status, typically by producing parents' or grandparents' ketubot or photos of gravestones or things like that. This has been occurring with increasing regularity in Israel, where marriage is performed only by the rabbinate, and there is no civil option. More and more secular couples, or simply couples with less-documented ancestry have been having their Jewish bona fides questioned when they try to marry, try to bury a family member or mark other lifecycle events. There's actually a charitable group that deals solely with helping these families prove their Jewish status. I find it pretty sick, actually, and it's a major reason that I don't ever see myself making aliyah. I have deep-seated problems with the complete lack of separation between synagogue and state there, and I think it's resulting in more and more violations of people's civil rights (particularly women) as the Haredi influence on the government grows. Thanks, but no thanks.

Don't get me started. There will be a civil war soon between the 7areidi and everyone else.

[Sola]

An Orthodox beit din would only count someone as Jewish for the purposes of lineage if they were an Orthodox convert or born Jewish (=mother a born Jew or an Orthodox convert). Even someone whose mother was a Conservative convert and whose father was a born Jew would absolutely not count :cry: ....The Orthodox are very strict about these things, and they go to great lengths to determine it accurately according to their standards, especially if it's a question of shidduch or something.

How far back does it go though? Take me for example, Maternal gggrandmother was Jewish but married a gentile. None of her descendants were brought up Jewish. Would I be recognised as a Jew by an ortho beit din? It seems quite ridiculous that I might be considered Jewish, when I have never practised, neither did my mother, grandmother nor ggrandmother, yet someone whose father is a Jew, perhaps has been brought up to practise the religion, yet whose mother was not a Jew, would not be considered to be Jewish.

[FaustianSlip]

It would depend on how conclusively you can prove both the Jewish status of the maternal grandmother and her relationship to the subsequent relatives in the maternal line that go down to you. It would probably also depend somewhat on the beit din looking at the case; I could see a more Haredi beit din being more exacting about what exactly they'll accept as far as "proof" of Jewish status, particularly from someone who is neither frum nor has any intention to be so.

Yichus, or lineage, is extremely important in Haredi circles. It's absolutely something that's considered when making a match, as well as religiosity, specific religious customs, et cetera. This is part of the reason that it would be very, very hard for someone to just blend into a community, presenting themselves as an Orthodox Jew, and subsequently marry into that community. Haredi communities tend to be very close-knit, everyone knows each other, and an interloper would probably be noticed quite quickly. Even in non-religious circles, the "Jewish geography" game can out people who are converts quite quickly, and I say that as someone who has been practicing Jewishly and lived in enough Jewish communities at this point to be pretty good at it. I got outed in my mother's own hometown when I went to shul there and a woman who was older and had lived in the area all her life started asking me who my family was. I'm pretty upfront about my status, so it didn't bother me, but it can be very hard on people who are sensitive about their status as a convert (or just don't think it's anyone else's business and wan to keep it to themselves, whatever the reason).

[2xx1xy1JD]

How far back does it go though? Take me for example, Maternal gggrandmother was Jewish but married a gentile. None of her descendants were brought up Jewish. Would I be recognised as a Jew by an ortho beit din? It seems quite ridiculous that I might be considered Jewish, when I have never practised, neither did my mother, grandmother nor ggrandmother, yet someone whose father is a Jew, perhaps has been brought up to practise the religion, yet whose mother was not a Jew, would not be considered to be Jewish.

According to Orthodox and Conservative, as long as maternal great-grandmother was definitely Jewish, whether or she or her descendents were observant is irrelevant. The Reform position, as mentioned, is different.

Part of the issue is that traditional Judaism, in many ways, can be seen as a legal system for a nation. Since so many more laws apply to Jews than non-Jews, the system needs a bright-line test to figure out who is subject to the extra laws. Prior to the days of IVF, it was pretty obvious who the mother of a child was. Fatherhood was harder to prove, and waiting to see how a child was raised or how they identified would have created too much of a gray area, where it wasn't clear if laws applied or not. [That said, with children who convert there is a requirement that the child somehow indicate that they accept Judaism once they reach 12 (girls) or 13 (boys) - I was at a combined bar/bat mitzvah for a brother and sister who were adopted, and they did this.]

[Ralar]

I'm reviving this thread, as I just read a wonderful article: I Reconciled My Gay Identity With My Orthodox Upbringing—Through a Tattoo

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/135316/gay-orthodox-tattoo/2

[AuntCloud]

Thanks, Ralar! very interesting, have read it briefly and will be doing a more thorough job later today.

I'm in awe of people who carve their own way in Judaism. Being Jewish is as much about confirming to community standards and expectations, and the all-powerful force of "this is how we do things", as about belief. Unlike Christian isolationist fundies, there is a huge emphasis in Judaism on community and conformity so leaving means ending all connections with a big, supportive group of extended family and friends.

[ThrK]

Thanks, Ralar! very interesting, have read it briefly and will be doing a more thorough job later today.

I'm in awe of people who carve their own way in Judaism. Being Jewish is as much about confirming to community standards and expectations, and the all-powerful force of "this is how we do things", as about belief. Unlike Christian isolationist fundies, there is a huge emphasis in Judaism on community and conformity so leaving means ending all connections with a big, supportive group of extended family and friends.

What's interesting is how much those standards depend on location as well as denomination. As an Israeli who grew up in the US I'm forever astonished to find Jews who don't understand that atheist Jews are a thing. Whereas my poor Modern Orthodox friend can't find a single man in Israel who is Orthodox (no Conservadox mixed-gender synagogues for her!) and not a crazy sexist, homophobic, bigot.

(That said, I think Jewish expression is way more varied in Israel, and she's just in denial about the fact that Orthodox Judaism is inherently sexist.)

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

What's interesting is how much those standards depend on location as well as denomination. As an Israeli who grew up in the US I'm forever astonished to find Jews who don't understand that atheist Jews are a thing. Whereas my poor Modern Orthodox friend can't find a single man in Israel who is Orthodox (no Conservadox mixed-gender synagogues for her!) and not a crazy sexist, homophobic, bigot.

(That said, I think Jewish expression is way more varied in Israel, and she's just in denial about the fact that Orthodox Judaism is inherently sexist.)

Wait, seriously? Most American Jews I know (myself included) are atheists, or at least totally nonobservant.

[ThrK]

Wait, seriously? Most American Jews I know (myself included) are atheists, or at least totally nonobservant.

While I know a lot of not very observant American Jews, most of the actually atheist folk of Jewish descent I know in the US don't really identify as Jewish. Different community, I guess.