Off the derech - Jews leaving Jewish Fundiedom

[fundyfunland]

Since becoming a Jewish convert drop-out (just couldn't see myself fully committing to that lifestyle & identity change...despite absolutely loving Judaism & all it entails), I've lurked on many blogs by Jews - haredi & some modern orthodox, who've gone OTD - off the derech & blogged about their experiences.

Their stories are as compelling as any of our other escapees. I don't know if we have any OTD Jews on the forum, but please feel free to add your stories. I just realized we were having more posts recently from people in the process of leaving fundie christianity...thought I'd add Judaism to the mix.

The blogs I read frequently are:

offthed.blogspot.com/2008/09/ten-reasons-why-i-left.html

007inyeshiva.blogspot.com/ - guy stil undercover-OTD at yeshiva, hasn't told his family he's no longer religious. New blog.

abandoningeden.blogspot.com/ - GREAT! older blog, updated frequently. Young woman's story about leaving orthodoxy behind, and being shunned by most of her family

[Patsy]

Really interesting. I'll take a look a these, thanks for linking.

[cindyluvs24]

There's always Reform and Conservative branches of Judaism. They don't entail a huge lifestyle change. Any kind of fundie interpretation of religion is going to be a pain to adhere to. Judaism is very anti-convert which puzzles me. They should be out there proseletyzing with the best of them.

[FaustianSlip]

Hang on, as a convert to Judaism, I feel qualified to say that Judaism (i.e. Jewish law) is not "very anti-convert." On the contrary, there are repeated and strong exhortations in the Talmud to respect and honor the convert, because the convert has had the freedom of life outside of the confines of Jewish law and chooses to give it all up to be Jewish. During my own conversion process, I received nothing but encouragement and support from my community, and while my rabbi definitely made sure that I understood that there was no shame in changing my mind and asked pointed questions about why I chose Judaism, I never felt disrespected or unwanted or anything like that. On the contrary, almost every Jew I've ever met with whom I discussed my conversion reacted really favorably. That said, there are certainly some Jewish communities that are anti-convert, but even a lot of that I think has more to do with paranoia about the less-religious and the increasing slide to the right going on in the Orthodox world than the converts themselves. We're just getting caught in the middle of what amounts to denominational turf wars.

Judaism is generally anti-evangelism, mostly because if you don't believe that anyone who isn't Jewish is going to Hell, well, there's not much imperative to proselytize. It's not like you're doing anyone any big favors talking them into being Jewish; if anything, you're making it tougher for them, since they have to do more crap to get the same reward in the afterlife as a non-Jew who only has to follow a few basic rules.

Of course, I'm adamantly against proselytizing, so I'm quite happy to be a part of a religion that's not into that crap at all. It was one of the things that drew me in initially, actually. We have enough issues without adding Christian-style evangelism to the list. Ugh. Oh, and I think the reason you don't see more OTD folks opting to go with Reform or Conservative Judaism is because the ones from the really strict communities are raised with the idea that anything outside of Ultra-Orthodoxy isn't Judaism at all, anyway. These are people who think Modern Orthodoxy is a bunch of heresy. It's a very binary, us/them world, and I think that even if they leave the community, it's really hard to leave the thought patterns behind. And I've heard some say that they find Reform and Conservative modes of worship very sterile and bland compared to the depth of what they had before, which in some ways is a fair complaint.

[sea_gale]

Fascinating blogs, thanks!

[pomology]

There's always Reform and Conservative branches of Judaism. They don't entail a huge lifestyle change. Any kind of fundie interpretation of religion is going to be a pain to adhere to. Judaism is very anti-convert which puzzles me. They should be out there proseletyzing with the best of them.

I'm not sure why you think that Judaism should be out proseletyzing. Like, what puzzles you about the fact that we don't?

As FaustianSlip said Jews don't believe non-being Jewish sends you to hell. On the contrary we think that being rewarded in the world to come is far, far easier if you're not Jewish. Our path isn't the only path, it's the more difficult one. Proselytizing wouldn't, to put it in evangelical terminology, save souls. It would put them in jeopardy.

Also, ultra-Orthodox Jews are just as crazy as fundamentalists of any faith. Although they generally seem to avoid meddling in the business of non-Jews via the government the way that fundamentalist Christians do (note, I am not saying that they don't ever meddle and that they wouldn't vote for candidates holding some pretty conservative social positions, just that they mostly aren't out campaigning the way Christians do, holding signs of dead fetuses etc.) On the other hand, I am highly embarrassed by them.

They are kind of like a crazy uncle who judges me for living a (mostly) secular lifestyle (even though practicing Judaism is important to me) and being in favor of egalitarianism. They're my family and family is important to me, but I want to keep them hidden from everyone else and far away from me.

[emmiedahl]

I am pro-convert if you are already a Jew! I know I have said this before, but there is a substantial body of thinking that holds that converts are already Jewish souls. The process of conversion is made difficult to weed out people like Lina, to keep our religion and culture Jewish. You can see in some churches how strange ideas will take over, they get steeplejacked and lose their religion so to speak.

It is not a xenophobic or elitist thing. We are not anti-convert, we simply want to make it a process. You have to remember, this is a culture, not just a religion.

[Beeks]

Very interesting, thanks!

[finleeport]

I get confused sometimes whether being Jewish is a religion or an ethnicity. Christopher Hitchens says he's Jewish but he's a big-time atheist. Some people say to me that Judaism is a religion while others say its an ethnicity.

[pomology]

I get confused sometimes whether being Jewish is a religion or an ethnicity. Christopher Hitchens says he's Jewish but he's a big-time atheist. Some people say to me that Judaism is a religion while others say its an ethnicity.

Judaism isn't an ethnicity. There are ethnic groups that are pretty much exclusively Jewish, but Judaism itself cannot an ethnicity, because there are people of all ethnicity that are born Jewish.

Judaism is also a religion.

Basically, just think of Judaism as a status. It is a status that you are either born with or you can be granted. And you can fit into any one of these scenarios:

- You are born with the status and practice the Jewish religion. You are Jewish.

- You are born with the status, but do not practice the Jewish religion. You are still Jewish.

- You aren't born with the status, but you want to practice the religion and are granted the status via conversion. You are Jewish.

- You aren't born with the status, want to practice the religion, but are not granted the status via conversion. You are not Jewish.

- You are born without the status and don't want to practice the religion. You are not Jewish.

[fundyfunland]

There's always Reform and Conservative branches of Judaism. They don't entail a huge lifestyle change. Any kind of fundie interpretation of religion is going to be a pain to adhere to. Judaism is very anti-convert which puzzles me. They should be out there proseletyzing with the best of them.

Hi Thanks for your reply.

1. Are you referring in general to the ortho jews gone OTD? If so, that what's always made me sad. They all seem to give up on Judaism as a whole, once they leave frum-dom. No matter how many times I or others, have told the bloggers that Reform /Conservative/Reconstructionist/Humannist Judaism is still an option, they just sort of shrug it off, since they're brought up to think (sorry brainwashed to think) that orthodoxy is the only way to truly be Jewish.

2. My experience (2yrs studying w/ a rabbi & immersing myself into the Jewish community) has been that Judaism is not at all anti-convert. In fact, I was lovingly taken in by many many people of various streams of Judaism during the holidays & for shabbos dinners/lunches. I was asked w/ complete interest how i came to know i wanted to become a Jew. I was welcomed by people from all streams of Judaism (until they knew I was converting under Reform...which is a story for another time.) My point: Judaism fromo my experience & those whom I met along the way, converting, were that we were embraced w/ open arms.

as one of the posters has said, Judaism does not actively convert/proselytize for several reasons. a. there's no need. Jews don't feel that they need to save souls from going to hell (from what I know, Jews don't believe in any form of hell...only sheol...distant from g-d). Righteous gentiles will also have a place in the "world to come" (which is also a term with many different interpretations depending on which Jew you ask at any time. In the past (way way long ago) Jews did actively proselytize, but this eventually came with the price of death....soooo....they stopped.

[Rachel333]

These are really interesting, thanks. Every religion can turn really bad, and I'm definitely interested in learning more about non-Christian fundies. I didn't know a whole lot about them before coming here, but we mainly discuss the Christians. They deserve it, certainly, but so do fundies in other religions.

1. Are you referring in general to the ortho jews gone OTD? If so, that what's always made me sad. They all seem to give up on Judaism as a whole, once they leave frum-dom. No matter how many times I or others, have told the bloggers that Reform /Conservative/Reconstructionist/Humannist Judaism is still an option, they just sort of shrug it off, since they're brought up to think (sorry brainwashed to think) that orthodoxy is the only way to truly be Jewish.

If you read the abandoning eden blog, you'll see that she did try to find another form of Judaism that was right for her, but in the end she just didn't believe. It's the same with other religions, like Christianity. There are lots of good non-fundie options, but if you don't believe at all it's not going to work for you.

[fundyfunland]

AAAAAHHHH! I can't believe I found this blog again. It was rather defunct after 2005, but there's now a post from 2009.

voicesfromourside.blogspot.com/ "A group of young Orthodox women dedicated to celebrating the many diverse voices of women in our community." - as they describe it.

It is not about OTD Jews, but most of the older posts are dedicated to the struggles of women in the Orthodox community. Very fascinating read! And very sad at times. I hope you enjoy it!

[RR88]

Hello!

I've been lurking here for a few years and have decided to finally join FJ! The discussions are too interesting for me to abstain any longer...

I figured my first post should be a response to this quote, since I am "off the derech" myself and write a blog about my experiences:

Are you referring in general to the ortho jews gone OTD? If so, that what's always made me sad. They all seem to give up on Judaism as a whole, once they leave frum-dom. No matter how many times I or others, have told the bloggers that Reform /Conservative/Reconstructionist/Humannist Judaism is still an option, they just sort of shrug it off, since they're brought up to think (sorry brainwashed to think) that orthodoxy is the only way to truly be Jewish.

I'd just like to say that I agree with Rachel333's approach:

If you read the abandoning eden blog, you'll see that she did try to find another form of Judaism that was right for her, but in the end she just didn't believe. It's the same with other religions, like Christianity. There are lots of good non-fundie options, but if you don't believe at all it's not going to work for you.

I know the author of "Abandoning Eden", and while I am not an atheist as she is, the thing that I often say to others who question my (near) rejection of Judaism is this: If a person believes that the premises of the faith are flawed, that the god said faith requires worship of is evil (as I believe), that the religion itself is incorrect...then adopting a different version of it is silly. And yes, many people from Orthodox backgrounds view Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, and any other non-Orthodox branch as "Judaism-lite". This isn't said to be offensive, but it's reality.

Anyway, I look forward to contributing again in the future! Sorry if my inaugural post was too "heavy".

[Beeks]

Hello!

I've been lurking here for a few years and have decided to finally join FJ! The discussions are too interesting for me to abstain any longer...

I figured my first post should be a response to this quote, since I am "off the derech" myself and write a blog about my experiences:

I'd just like to say that I agree with Rachel333's approach:

I know the author of "Abandoning Eden", and while I am not an atheist as she is, the thing that I often say to others who question my (near) rejection of Judaism is this: If a person believes that the premises of the faith are flawed, that the god said faith requires worship of is evil (as I believe), that the religion itself is incorrect...then adopting a different version of it is silly. And yes, many people from Orthodox backgrounds view Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, and any other non-Orthodox branch as "Judaism-lite". This isn't said to be offensive, but it's reality.

Anyway, I look forward to contributing again in the future! Sorry if my inaugural post was too "heavy".

I want to understand the bolded line but I don't. What do you believe is evil?

[RR88]

Sorry, I can be a bit wordy and sometimes my phrasing is cumbersome.

I was referring to my belief that the Jewish notion of god (like most others) is evil. Does the sentence structure make sense in that light? (This isn't a judgment call on other people's views; it's simply what I happen to believe.)

[Beeks]

Sorry, I can be a bit wordy and sometimes my phrasing is cumbersome.

I was referring to my belief that the Jewish notion of god (like most others) is evil. Does the sentence structure make sense in that light? (This isn't a judgment call on other people's views; it's simply what I happen to believe.)

It makes sense in that I now understand what you think is evil. :) Can you explain why? I don't want to come off as attacking you so if you're not comfortable going into it it's fine. I'm just curious why you think the Jewish notion of God is evil.

[pomology]

Sorry, I can be a bit wordy and sometimes my phrasing is cumbersome.

I was referring to my belief that the Jewish notion of god (like most others) is evil. Does the sentence structure make sense in that light? (This isn't a judgment call on other people's views; it's simply what I happen to believe.)

Psh, Judaism doesn't require belief in God (says my utterly secularized, incredibly liberal, atheistic-or-pantheistic-depending-on-the-day, but devotedly Jewish self...)

I mean, I get your point. Especially since it seems like you come from a totally perspective than me. But those are just my two cents on the subject of Judaism and God.

[RR88]

Can you explain why?

Gladly.

(Full disclosure: My understanding of Judaism stems from being raised in a Modern Orthodox household, attending a Religious Zionist day school until age nine, and then attending an ultra-Orthodox institution until I finished high school.)

HaShem (God) is evil because he commanded the Jewish people to commit genocide against Amalek, gave specific instruction to Hebrew soldiers as to how they should kidnap and rape attractive enemy women, said that women who didn't bleed on their wedding nights should be stoned to death, et cetera.

There is, of course, much more. I never identified with HaShem as a father figure or "good guy" because he authorized a lot of awful behaviors.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I quite like this sort of blog too. Another I can recommend is unpious.com, a collaboration site with pieces written by people who have gone OTD. The discussion about the shared culture shock (or eventually just shared cultural history) aspects is interesting - people who all lived in VERY insular worlds for the most part (people from New Square, etc) having to leave those worlds in order to move at all, giving up everything, and yet still missing home, the language, and just plain cultural aspects of the old life (things which for the most part aren't so available in Conservative/Reform, so that wouldn't get them what they miss anyway). Interesting stuff.

[RR88]

Psh, Judaism doesn't require belief in God (says my utterly secularized, incredibly liberal, atheistic-or-pantheistic-depending-on-the-day, but devotedly Jewish self...)

I still find (non-traditional) meaning in many of the holidays and traditions, and so I continue to observe them. :)

I'm really struck by the number of Jewish people at FJ, by the way. The Duggars' Israel episode made me cringe a few dozen times, and it was nice to see so many Jews weighing in on the family's trip. :mrgreen:

[Beeks]

Gladly.

(Full disclosure: My understanding of Judaism stems from being raised in a Modern Orthodox household, attending a Religious Zionist day school until age nine, and then attending an ultra-Orthodox institution until I finished high school.)

HaShem (God) is evil because he commanded the Jewish people to commit genocide against Amalek, gave specific instruction to Hebrew soldiers as to how they should kidnap and rape attractive enemy women, said that women who didn't bleed on their wedding nights should be stoned to death, et cetera.

There is, of course, much more. I never identified with HaShem as a father figure or "good guy" because he authorized a lot of awful behaviors.

Oh. I think you can believe in God and even be Jewish without believing that the Torah is literally the word of God. My understanding of Judaism is from the conservative perspective, btw.

[RR88]

Oh. I think you can believe in God and even be Jewish without believing that the Torah is literally the word of God. My understanding of Judaism is from the conservative perspective, btw.

That's cool. My dad was brought up Conservative, and most of my Jewish relatives fall into the Conservative or "Conservadox" camps. I happen to think that the Torah is not the literal word of God...and if it is, it's not a god I have any interest in worshiping. ;)

[Beeks]

That's cool. My dad was brought up Conservative, and most of my Jewish relatives fall into the Conservative or "Conservadox" camps. I happen to think that the Torah is not the literal word of God...and if it is, it's not a god I have any interest in worshiping. ;)

Totally agree with you there. I was always taught that all the bad stuff was left in the Torah because it was meant to be a book by Jews, for Jews, so we could have our dirty laundry included for the purpose of teaching us a lesson.

[RR88]

Totally agree with you there. I was always taught that all the bad stuff was left in the Torah because it was meant to be a book by Jews, for Jews, so we could have our dirty laundry included for the purpose of teaching us a lesson.

I've never heard that before. Very interesting!