Off the derech - Jews leaving Jewish Fundiedom

[fundiefun]

I can't help but think of what Orthodox Jewish community TT and Lina decided to infiltrate. We may never know :(

[RR88]

I doubt Lina and her husband will infiltrate any Orthodox community, fundiefun. In many cases, people aren't particularly welcoming of newcomers, period, much less ones who use Christian terminology and profess a belief in "Yeshua".

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I was thinking that if they managed to have some connection with an actual Orthodox community (just to meet up! for now) it would probably be Chabad, because you can pretty easily find their outreach houses in major cities and near college campuses, where plenty of young 20-somethings hang out. Granted, mostly they're on the lookout for potential BTs, but I could see them being welcome to sincerely questioning people also - but the bottom line is, they're there, and they're officially interested in talking to non-members (of their own group).

Of course, I agree with everyone that the moment Lina started using Christian terminology or prattling on about Yeshua she'd get the polite brush-off pretty soon.

[RR88]

I was thinking that if they managed to have some connection with an actual Orthodox community (just to meet up! for now) it would probably be Chabad, because you can pretty easily find their outreach houses in major cities and near college campuses, where plenty of young 20-somethings hang out. Granted, mostly they're on the lookout for potential BTs, but I could see them being welcome to sincerely questioning people also - but the bottom line is, they're there, and they're officially interested in talking to non-members (of their own group).

Yes. That, and the fact that Chabad itself dabbles in Messianic ideas, depending on location. Where I live, Chabadniks are famous for being non-Messianic, and the local Chabad yeshiva is where non-Messianic Lubavitchers send their sons.

[Beeks]

Yes. That, and the fact that Chabad itself dabbles in Messianic ideas, depending on location. Where I live, Chabadniks are famous for being non-Messianic, and the local Chabad yeshiva is where non-Messianic Lubavitchers send their sons.

Even if they have messianic ideas though, I don't think Lina's belief in Jesus would fly....right?

[ilovetchotchkes]

I doubt Lina and her husband will infiltrate any Orthodox community, fundiefun. In many cases, people aren't particularly welcoming of newcomers, period, much less ones who use Christian terminology and profess a belief in "Yeshua".

This SO much this. I once had a modern Orthodox friend and I went to services at her shul with her and her family. NOBODY talked to me. NOBODY. I was dressed right, hair covered, tzunit outfit, long skirt, the whole 9 yards. Its not like I was in pants and a low cut teeshirt, nope. It was actually really upsetting to me.

This was SO much of a whiplash from my Reform shul where if you're "new" or not known, one of the regulars will grab you and ask you a million friendly questions and try to play "Jewish Geography" in order to find a commonality and be all "HEY guys!! this is Joe! he's from SKOKIE! HE KNOWS MY AUNT!!!!"

[RR88]

Even if they have messianic ideas though, I don't think Lina's belief in Jesus would fly....right?

Oh, absolutely not. I was just snarking on Chabad. :D

[RR88]

This SO much this. I once had a modern Orthodox friend and I went to services at her shul with her and her family. NOBODY talked to me. NOBODY. I was dressed right, hair covered, tzunit outfit, long skirt, the whole 9 yards. Its not like I was in pants and a low cut teeshirt, nope. It was actually really upsetting to me.

This was SO much of a whiplash from my Reform shul where if you're "new" or not known, one of the regulars will grab you and ask you a million friendly questions and try to play "Jewish Geography" in order to find a commonality and be all "HEY guys!! this is Joe! he's from SKOKIE! HE KNOWS MY AUNT!!!!"

Yeah. Every Orthodox shul I've been to requires the newcomer to "make the first move". Once you go up to people and start talking to them, you're golden (usually). But it's not likely that others will approach you and make you feel at home. To be honest, though, if I went to a shul where someone "grabbed me and asked me a million friendly questions", I might run for the hills! ;)

[ilovetchotchkes]

Yeah. Every Orthodox shul I've been to requires the newcomer to "make the first move". Once you go up to people and start talking to them, you're golden (usually). But it's not likely that others will approach you and make you feel at home. To be honest, though, if I went to a shul where someone "grabbed me and asked me a million friendly questions", I might run for the hills! ;)

Well, maybe not a MILLION, LOL. More like, we REALLY want to be friendly to EVERYONE.

And i'm terribly shy in first time social situations. Me talking to everyone, gaaaaah! do not want.

It was pretty hilarious, she introduced me to her rabbi, and there was an awkward moment of "so where do you go to shul" and I told him. He thought I was referring to the Conservative one across the street from mine. And then once I corrected him there was the awkward moment of him looking at me, the wheels turning in his head going "you're.... REFORM?!?!?!?!?" Yeah, yeah I am.

[RR88]

Nice avatar, by the way. I have that book sitting on my shelf, as well as Just Say Nu.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Nice avatar, by the way. I have that book sitting on my shelf, as well as Just Say Nu.

My husband says its my autobiography, because I apparently make kvetching an art form AND because I have this obsession with Yiddish as a language.

[RR88]

My husband says its my autobiography, because I apparently make kvetching an art form AND because I have this obsession with Yiddish as a language.

I wish I knew more Yiddish. My Hebrew is a lot better.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I wish I knew more Yiddish. My Hebrew is a lot better.

I just don't grok Hebrew. I can get to the point where I can recognize the letters enough to sound out words, but the grammar causes me to curl up into the fetal position and whine, repeatedly.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I would like to learn some Hebrew (modern Ivrit) myself. I know only a few letters of the alphabet at the moment, I should look up some online resources. I occasionally watch videos from Israeli TV with subtitles on and I think it sounds nice, this seems to be minority opinion maybe but I LIKE the "ch" thing :)

I like to read a guy's Flickr page that has majority Yiddish captions, and I have to say I'm pretty impressed at Google translate's ability to handle those short captions (I suspect it would choke on longer stuff).

But yeah, from what I've heard, the grammar of Hebrew is very different from either of my languages, so it would be hard going...

[emmiedahl]

I just don't grok Hebrew. I can get to the point where I can recognize the letters enough to sound out words, but the grammar causes me to curl up into the fetal position and whine, repeatedly.

This, exactly. :D I can speak a lot of Yiddish because my stepfather is Ashkenazi and pretty fluent in it. I happen to love Yiddish, it is the funnest language and so expressive.

[ilovetchotchkes]

This, exactly. :D I can speak a lot of Yiddish because my stepfather is Ashkenazi and pretty fluent in it. I happen to love Yiddish, it is the funnest language and so expressive.

I love how its As the book describes "German to spite the Germans". My mother knows what i'm saying when I say "nischt getoygan un nischt gefloygan" but she doesn't know that i'm engaging in a bit o delicious blasphemy when I say it....

[RR88]

Yeah, I'm the other way around. I come from a Lithuanian Ashkenazi background (on my dad's side, at least - Mom's a convert), but am far more comfortable with Hebrew vocabulary and grammar than I am with that of Yiddish. My recent study of Arabic has helped me to better understand the mechanics of Semitic languages, and the first school I attended taught "ivrit b'Ivrit", which forced students to actually figure out the way the language worked.

Besides, the Lithuanian Yiddish I grew up hearing is spoken very differently than what most Ashkenazi Jews (largely of Polish descent) are familiar with. Also, I have a hard time turning ordinarily "silent" letters into vowels, as occurs in Yiddish. The most difficult challenge is the pronunciation. My Hebrew is heavily influenced by Arabic and various Sephardic pronunciations, and while I went to an ultra-Orthodox school that used Yiddish pronunciation, I don't like switching back and forth...I'd rather stick with one method.

[Ralar]

This SO much this. I once had a modern Orthodox friend and I went to services at her shul with her and her family. NOBODY talked to me. NOBODY. I was dressed right, hair covered, tzunit outfit, long skirt, the whole 9 yards. Its not like I was in pants and a low cut teeshirt, nope. It was actually really upsetting to me.

This was SO much of a whiplash from my Reform shul where if you're "new" or not known, one of the regulars will grab you and ask you a million friendly questions and try to play "Jewish Geography" in order to find a commonality and be all "HEY guys!! this is Joe! he's from SKOKIE! HE KNOWS MY AUNT!!!!"

Interesting. I've had the opposite experience. I've been ignored at Reform and Conservative synagogues, but always made to feel welcome at Orthodox synagogues. I am not Orthodox, but currently attend Chabad services and my daughter attends Hebrew School there becase after 5 years at our neighborhood Conservative synagogue, we still felt like strangers.

[chiccy]

Yes. That, and the fact that Chabad itself dabbles in Messianic ideas, depending on location. Where I live, Chabadniks are famous for being non-Messianic, and the local Chabad yeshiva is where non-Messianic Lubavitchers send their sons.

But their Messianism has nothing to do with Jesus. The Messianic Chabadniks think the Lubavitcher Rebbe was Messiah.

No, Lina would not be welcome...unless she's born Jewish (is she?), in which case I'm guessing they'd make an effort to get her to do teshuvah. Those Chabadniks are tenacious; they are really into/good at "love bombing" anyone born Jewish, no matter how bad he/she is now.

I wish I spoke Yiddish! Totally agree that it is hilarious and wonderfully expressive.

[RR88]

Sorry to resurrect this, but I was wondering if anyone had updates on Lina…did she manage to infiltrate an unsuspecting Jewish congregation?

[Someonetocall]

Sorry to resurrect this, but I was wondering if anyone had updates on Lina…did she manage to infiltrate an unsuspecting Jewish congregation?

From what I've seen, she's scrubbed all MJ references from the 'net, as she controls it and reactivated veggout.blogspot.com where she mostly leaves religion out of it. There was speculation here that she would do this to infiltrate but I don't know that we know anything right now. She did "observe" Sukkot, IIRC.

ETA: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3579&start=360 (not a hand slap for not finding this, just a reference so you can see me cite my sources)

[RR88]

I get confused sometimes whether being Jewish is a religion or an ethnicity. Christopher Hitchens says he's Jewish but he's a big-time atheist. Some people say to me that Judaism is a religion while others say its an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religio-nation. It can also be argued to be an ethnicity, because even though there are Jews of many colors and geographic backgrounds, DNA analyses have shown that most Jews have more in common genetically (regardless of appearance) than they do with other ethnic groups. Of course, different customs and liturgy exist for various communities. There is no uniform "Jewish culture", though many people have this erroneous view due to depictions of Jews as all being from Poland and the like. As a whole, Jews are most closely related to Chaldeans, Palestinians, Lebanese, and Syrians.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Judaism is self-defining, so trying to pigeon-hole it as a race or religion is a bit like arguing about whether a square is a circle or triangle.

The traditional definition of a Jew, as we're mentioned before, is someone who was born to a Jewish mother or who converted in accordance with Jewish law.

The Hebrew Bible uses both the terms "people" and "nation" to describe the Jews/Israelites. There are clear examples of Israelites straying off to follow other gods, but they don't cease to be Israelites - they just violate the commandments and earn some divine wrath. In some cases, they or their descendents are shown to revert back to the monotheistic path (see First and Second Kings). It also describes situations where people from other nations converted and full thereafter considered to be Israelites (King David's great-grandmother was Ruth the Moabite, while Moses married Zipporah, daughter of the Midianite priest Jethro).

On a practical level, you ended up with communities of Jews who tended to live near each other, marry each other and who were often prevented from fully integrating into the countries in which they lived. So, they tended to develop their own cultures. Some communities were more isolated from other Jewish communities (the Ethiopian community is a prime example), and communities also tended to either absorb elements of their host countries, or react to aspects of the host country.

There was a massive wave of Jewish immigration to North America from Russia/Eastern Europe between 1880 and World War I, and people here tend to associate Jews in general with the ones who descended from this wave. There was also a post-war wave from Europe, after the Holocaust. It's true that this group had more in common than just religion - there was a common history, common descent from the same areas of Europe, common unique language (Yiddish), common foods, and thanks to a whole lot of inbreeding, a lot of common genes. Many arrived through the same ports of entry (like Ellis Island) and went to the same areas and tended to take the same sort of jobs, and because so many arrived within a fairly short period of time, they tended to be affected by the same economic factors and development of the surrounding society. So, for example, many American Jews have great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents who arrived at Ellis Island, lived in New York around the Lower East Side, worked in sweatshops in the garment industry, got involved in some sort of left-wing worker's organization, went to public schools, were told that they would succeed in life through education, and went on to leave the sweatshops and own their own businesses or become professionals.

At the same time - that is just one of many Jewish communities. We've got friends who are Indian Jews - at their Bat Mitvzah, the Bat Mitzvah girl wore a sari. Bukharan Jews tend to be associated with restaurants and barbers, for some reason. Each community has its own culture and quirks.

[icecreamycakeycake]

Judaism isn't an ethnicity. There are ethnic groups that are pretty much exclusively Jewish, but Judaism itself cannot an ethnicity, because there are people of all ethnicity that are born Jewish.

Judaism is also a religion.

Basically, just think of Judaism as a status. It is a status that you are either born with or you can be granted. And you can fit into any one of these scenarios:

- You are born with the status and practice the Jewish religion. You are Jewish.

- You are born with the status, but do not practice the Jewish religion. You are still Jewish.

- You aren't born with the status, but you want to practice the religion and are granted the status via conversion. You are Jewish.

- You aren't born with the status, want to practice the religion, but are not granted the status via conversion. You are not Jewish.

- You are born without the status and don't want to practice the religion. You are not Jewish.

Is my understanding correct that Orthodox recognizes only the Mothers bloodline, while Reform Jews recognize either parent?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Is my understanding correct that Orthodox recognizes only the Mothers bloodline, while Reform Jews recognize either parent?

Sort of.

Traditional (Orthodox and Conservative) Judasim recognizes the child of a Jewish mother as Jewish, period. Therefore, my Cuban/Colombian cousins who proudly showed us their huge Nativity scene and treated us to a ham dinner on Christmas would be considered to have the same Jewish status as I do, because we share a Jewish great-grandmother on the maternal line.

Reform Judaism, however, says:

The Central Conference of American Rabbis declares that the child of one Jewish parent is under the presumption of Jewish descent. This presumption of the Jewish status of the offspring of any mixed marriage is to be established through appropriate and timely public and formal acts of identification with the Jewish faith and people. The performance of these mitzvot serves to commit those who participate in them, both parent and child, to Jewish life.

Depending on circumstances,1 mitzvot leading toward a positive and exclusive Jewish identity will include entry into the covenant, acquisition of a Hebrew name, Torah study, Bar/Bat Mitzvah, and Kabbalat Torah (Confirmation).2 For those beyond childhood claiming Jewish identity, other public acts or declarations may be added or substituted after consultation with their rabbi.

So, they would recognize someone with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother who identified as Jewish and showed it through some sort of public acts/observances, but they would not recognize people like my cousins. I'm not 100% on how they would treat kids who are raised in more than one faith.