Safe at Home 4: Where the thread names change, but the Arndts stay the same

[actionsub]

On 4/1/2019 at 2:52 PM, anjulibai said:

Yeah, they aren't really Catholic anymore, and haven't really been for a long time. They are the Church of Rick and he's their Pastor/Prophet/Theologian all rolled into one. 

That helps.  I really haven't had any contact with them in about 20 years, so the "pastor" thing was kind of new.  My guess is he's homechurching.

[usedbicycle]

I watched some of Rick's live-streaming a couple days ago, on his birthday. It was suuuper weird. His kids act like he's a prophet or something, at his beck and call.

In this particular video, Rick is in his truck at the edge of the woods, rambling and rambling. Peter walks into the frame in the distance, carrying a gasoline tank (the boys are working with a chainsaw in the woods it seems). Rick calls him over, asks him to go for a walk in the woods with him. Peter doesn't seem thrilled because he's obviously busy, but replies enthusiastically "Sure Dad!". He then politely waits outside the car for what seems like an eternity while Rick rambles on and on inside. Rick finally decides to go on the walk, but he must find his anointing oil first. He proceeds to anoint the viewers with his magic oil on camera, mumbling prayers under his breath. One of the strangest things I've ever seen. Then he needs to find a water bottle and searches his entire car. Peter waits and waits outside with the patience of a saint. 

The walk is infinitely boring and rambling. Rick keeps inviting the viewers to come visit them, says they would really like it there (there are 7-8 people watching at that point). I wonder if they follow-up on those invitations, and what kind of people show up... Peter says nothing the whole time, except for a prayer for the viewers when Rick orders him to. It's super depressing. I had to stop around that point. 

In the meantime, Mary Elizabeth is acting as the moderator in the livestream chat. She's unnaturally jolly and loves exclamation points. She's constantly checking in on Rick and doing anything he says. "I just helped invite the ladies in the groups, but I hope I didn’t miss anything you asked, Dad!"

It smells and looks like a cult, just weird weird weird all around. 

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, usedbicycle said:

It smells and looks like a cult, just weird weird weird all around. 

Wow @usedbicycle what's going on at Chez Arndt is stranger than I thought.   This constant mumbling, anointing the viewers and inviting them to visit is all so very strange and sounds unsafe.  Who knows who will show up at the house. 

What's really sad is that that Rick is leading the entire family down whatever strange rabbit hole he's gone down.  I wonder what's going on but obviously he is not right in the mind.   The family seems beholden to him in spite of the madness and going along with it when maybe they should stage an intervention instead.    It also has me wondering anew why the older ones have not left, that they are too tied to the cult of Dad and that they also feel responsible for the financial well being of the family since Daddy has obviously checked out

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

24 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

they also feel responsible for the financial well being of the family since Daddy has obviously checked out

That’s always been my theory.   

[nokidsmom]

5 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

That’s always been my theory.   

At first, I chalked up the manboys staying "safe at home" as being more about parents who just could not let their kids go, especially their mother, and less about family finances.  Now I am wondering that the manboys' financial contribution is more important than I thought.  Seeing how Rick is just not right, it has got me thinking that his early "retirement" was more about what is going on with him mentally as physically he's in very good shape for his age.    They each got into their respective occupations perhaps for themselves but as time went on, their income became more important to keeping the family financially afloat as Rick's income declined.  Their mother does not work and there's a bunch of younger siblings.   And let's not forget Vine Valley needs funding. 

On some level one or two or three of them may know there's a problem with Pastor Dad, but they are still too trained to go along with Daddy aka their cult leader plus they can't leave their younger siblings and mother without support.   It seems the whole family is sort of being held hostage by Daddy who is entirely in his own world.

[JenniferJuniper]

I agree with the financial aspect of the manboys feeling they need to stay, but it still doesn't begin to explain everything.  With the exception of the youngest who is about 16, all of the offspring are adults.  And even he is capable of working at that age.  So you've got 14 healthy offspring, all capable of gainful employment, but only the oldest four or five in their 30's seem to do much income providing work.  The rest just seem to putter around the homestead.   And help Dad with his *cough* ministry. And Vine Valley, of course.

I don't know about ya'll, but if I were one of the 30 somethings I'd be feeling some resentment at this point.

The questions I'd like answered are:  Do they know Rick is mentally ill?  Do at least some of them know he's mentally ill?   The dude anoints his cell phone with oil, FFS.  And then there is Vine Valley, of course. If they don't know he's nuts,  wouldn't that make them just as nuts? They don't seem nuts.  What's the plan for the twenty-somethings who will soon becoming thirty-somethings as the 30 somethings enter their 40's?  

They all aren't needed to support the family, that seems clear.  So why don't a few of them break free?  I mean, my parents had plans for me, disagreed with my choices, but they did forgive me.  Like 20 minutes later.  What is driving what appears to be real fear here?

Twilight Zone material for sure.

 

[Briefly]

21 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I agree with the financial aspect of the manboys feeling they need to stay, but it still doesn't begin to explain everything.  With the exception of the youngest who is about 16, all of the offspring are adults.  And even he is capable of working at that age.  So you've got 14 healthy offspring, all capable of gainful employment, but only the oldest four or five in their 30's seem to do much income providing work.  The rest just seem to putter around the homestead.   And help Dad with his *cough* ministry. And Vine Valley, of course.

I don't know about ya'll, but if I were one of the 30 somethings I'd be feeling some resentment at this point.

The questions I'd like answered are:  Do they know Rick is mentally ill?  Do at least some of them know he's mentally ill?   The dude anoints his cell phone with oil, FFS.  And then there is Vine Valley, of course. If they don't know he's nuts,  wouldn't that make them just as nuts? They don't seem nuts.  What's the plan for the twenty-somethings who will soon becoming thirty-somethings as the 30 somethings enter their 40's?  

They all aren't needed to support the family, that seems clear.  So why don't a few of them break free?  I mean, my parents had plans for me, disagreed with my choices, but they did forgive me.  Like 20 minutes later.  What is driving what appears to be real fear here?

Twilight Zone material for sure.

 

This, as well as most of the other comments on this page of this thread are reminding me of someone saying that Rick reminded them of a family annihilator, but that he hadn't been triggered yet.  Forgive me, I can't remember who originally said it and it was quite a while back.  I'm not really sure I agree with that but I can certainly see where that idea is beginning to make a little more sense to me.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

17 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I agree with the financial aspect of the manboys feeling they need to stay, but it still doesn't begin to explain everything.  With the exception of the youngest who is about 16, all of the offspring are adults.  And even he is capable of working at that age.  So you've got 14 healthy offspring, all capable of gainful employment, but only the oldest four or five in their 30's seem to do much income providing work.  The rest just seem to putter around the homestead.   And help Dad with his *cough* ministry. And Vine Valley, of course.

I don't know about ya'll, but if I were one of the 30 somethings I'd be feeling some resentment at this point.

The questions I'd like answered are:  Do they know Rick is mentally ill?  Do at least some of them know he's mentally ill?   The dude anoints his cell phone with oil, FFS.  And then there is Vine Valley, of course. If they don't know he's nuts,  wouldn't that make them just as nuts? They don't seem nuts.  What's the plan for the twenty-somethings who will soon becoming thirty-somethings as the 30 somethings enter their 40's?  

They all aren't needed to support the family, that seems clear.  So why don't a few of them break free?  I mean, my parents had plans for me, disagreed with my choices, but they did forgive me.  Like 20 minutes later.  What is driving what appears to be real fear here?

Twilight Zone material for sure.

 

Do we know the others aren’t working?

we know that the eldest 6 (Paul - James) have all been doing he court reporting and photography along with the computer business (not sure if that’s still a thing) for years.

It’s spendy to keep Rick and Cathy in the lifestyle they live - the projects and upkeep on the house/property, VV and all the travel, etc.

if they were just there out of financial obligation I can see resentment for sure so I’d bet at least for some there is more at play.

Mark has always struck me as being particularly fond of Kool-Aid and Paul seemed to have sarcastic resentment at the surface at times but who knows - we only got glimpses from vids and their posts.

1 minute ago, Briefly said:

This, as well as most of the other comments on this page of this thread are reminding me of someone saying that Rick reminded them of a family annihilator, but that he hadn't been triggered yet.  Forgive me, I can't remember who originally said it and it was quite a while back.  I'm not really sure I agree with that but I can certainly see where that idea is beginning to make a little more sense to me.

When it was first said I replied I was very uncomfortable with the characterization and I still am.

many, many people who are mentally ill and even delusional aren’t violent and we have no reason to believe Rick is dangerous physically.

[Briefly]

@HerNameIsBuffy, I am also uncomfortable with the idea.  But I have definitely been reminded of that discussion and I can kind of see where it originated.  That is basically what I meant, not that the idea that he could be one made sense but that I can see the sense that it could make people think that direction.

[JenniferJuniper]

I don't think Rick has a violent bone in his body, and I'm willing to bet those kids were never spanked by him growing up.  Cathy maybe, but Rick seems to think he can solve everything with his silver tongue.  A tongue which often speaks in tongues.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, Briefly said:

@HerNameIsBuffy, I am also uncomfortable with the idea.  But I have definitely been reminded of that discussion and I can kind of see where it originated.  That is basically what I meant, not that the idea that he could be one made sense but that I can see the sense that it could make people think that direction.

I just hate to perpetuate the stigma that mental illness = dangerous without reason to fear.

but that has very unwell has been my opinion for a long time.  that's why Cathy fascinates me far more than Rick.

his behavior makes sense to him in his illnesss and the kids have been so sheltered their sense of normal is likely quite skewed.

none of that explains Cathy's behavior.  

[lilith]

7 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

 

none of that explains Cathy's behavior.  

I think Cathy has simply  become more and more dependent on her man children for all her emotional, financial and practical needs as her husband has isolated them more and more and become crazier and crazier. They make her life bearable and if one goes more might. 

[JenniferJuniper]

27 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

none of that explains Cathy's behavior.  

No, but they are fundies.  Not the typical protestant fundies we all know and don't love, but I do think she is a true helpmeet, at least on the surface.   Beyond that, I don't really get Cathy and I think it's because Rick has never let us see much of her.  I'd describe her as insanely well organized and probably the hard-working engine that keeps things afloat while her off-kilter husband fritters away his days.  

She certainly does benefit from having all of her kids around her, but is she using Rick or his Rick using her?  Or, and I think this is more likely the case, is the dynamic between the two of them conspiring in some way to keep the "kids" all prisoners?

As for the sons working, I'm 90% sure the actual court reporting stops with Jude.  And not all of the older sons were primary court reporters.  Some did more editing and reviewing of transcripts.  Mark is the primary photographer (and he's good)  and a number of the others help him, but weddings are seasonal and weekend work.  I'm sure the laptop repair business is long gone and I'm not aware of any other family businesses.  Aside, as always, for Vine Valley.  And Dad's ministry. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by JenniferJuniper

[HerNameIsBuffy]

33 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I'm 90% sure the actual court reporting stops with Jude.

I hate that I know this, but James and John went on a court reporting thing where they were both working.

[JenniferJuniper]

1 minute ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I hate that I know this, but James and John went on a court reporting thing where they were both working.

John is the number 2 court reporter after Paul, if not number 1.  I have never heard them say James took or passed the test.  He's the number 1 handyman.  He may have gone on a trip with the brothers and he may have helped with editing, but I'd be slightly surprised if he was doing actual stenography.  He's needed elsewhere most of the time.  

And yeah, I hate that I know this too but I'm drawn to this kooky bunch in a way I can't explain. 

[MamaJunebug]

Verrry interesting that Rick is inviting viewers to come on over. Over a decade ago, they politely and firmly  excluded people who were interested in attending their home church. 

Now that they have the studio addition to the home (at least I think they do), more people are likely to see the house with parents and a dozen-some grown children home during normal business hours. What will they make of it?

I've thought about suggesting the family as a potential human-interest article to the Belleville, Illinois local daily newspaper. I doubt they’d follow-up. For all the subtopics of family businesses, bachelors at home and the fading softball classic, the takeaway is: these folks are plain weird. 

[nokidsmom]

14 hours ago, JenniferJuniper said:

I agree with the financial aspect of the manboys feeling they need to stay, but it still doesn't begin to explain everything.

Yeah, even with the financial part it still doesn't explain everything, it can explain part but hardly all.  Aside from the questions @JenniferJuniper raised there's the one big question I have:  how can 14 able bodied adults be willing to go along with this?  It seems beyond possible that all of them would be happy to remain "safe at home".   How can the desire to live one's own life be missing from all of them because for many people it's the big thing that makes them say "nope, love you all but I am out of here, you can be mad at me if you want".   There's no questioning, no resentment.   Rick and Cathy seemed to have lived the lives they wanted, yet their own children are kept from doing the same?

I know that what is shown is what Rick wants shown so for all we know there's tons of conflict behind the scenes.  But still that doesn't explain how easily that just one manboy could leave the house under the cover of going to work and easily not come back.   The ones who work seem to come and go pretty freely which makes the fact they stick around all that puzzling.   There's got to be some serious emotional voodoo that keeps them around. 

I agree that Rick is ill, and it may have been going for such a long time that the family has "normalized" it somehow  "that's just Dad at it again" or they know something is wrong, but in their self imposed insularity, feel it's their job to deal with it rather than get real help.    Because with insularity, there's the idea that all must be kept within the family and not allow anyone outside the family, which can include mental health professionals, to help. 

And I agree that how Cathy deals with this is a mystery.   Earlier I thought that Cathy was the driver of all this "safe at home" business but now after seeing how much Rick really is in la la land and  has been descending down the his particular rabbit hole for a long time , that Cathy may be doing what she can to survive.    I think there is something to what @lilith says, that the kids increasingly became her emotional and financial support as her husband checked out. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

52 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

Earlier I thought that Cathy was the driver of all this "safe at home" business but now after seeing how much Rick really is in la la land and  has been descending down the his particular rabbit hole for a long time , that Cathy may be doing what she can to survive. 

Maybe.  Or maybe she wants this and is using Rick’s illness to achieve her end.

there is no way to know.

as a mom I cannot imagine a mindfuck powerful enough to keep my kids stunted like this.

all we know for sure is there is something going on in that family dynamic none of us can understand.

[JenniferJuniper]

44 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

And I agree that how Cathy deals with this is a mystery.   Earlier I thought that Cathy was the driver of all this "safe at home" business but now after seeing how much Rick really is in la la land and  has been descending down the his particular rabbit hole for a long time , that Cathy may be doing what she can to survive.    I think there is something to what @lilith says, that the kids increasingly became her emotional and financial support as her husband checked out. 

Rick has taken quite a bit from Cathy.  He took her religion, which I think was a huge thing for her. He also took away the possibility of grandchildren from her, and she seems to love babies.   Not that it might not happen someday in the distant future but her oldest could have made her a great-grandma by now and she's nearly 60. 

I completely agree that we have no clue what goes on when the cameras are off.  Nutty as he is, Rick is a very careful film editor.  Beyond a whiff of bitterness at times from Paul and a sense that Luke knows this is not at all normal, I can't get a read on the offspring. Except to state the obvious - they all at least appear to be ridiculously well-behaved.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

they all at least appear to be ridiculously well-behaved.

This.  I have 3 who have never agreed on pizza toppings much less the same weird career amalgams.  And they’d opt for tents in the yard before sharing bedrooms.

And only one of mine loves penguins.

seriosuly though the ...conformity...is what’s so unsettling for me.  I can’t see any way healthy parenting results in such a lack of diversity in the kids hopes and dreams for themselves.

[nokidsmom]

8 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Maybe.  Or maybe she wants this and is using Rick’s illness to achieve her end.

there is no way to know.

Agree that there is no way to know.    It's just that I am not so certain of Cathy being the driver of all this weirdness as I was before.  But yeah, this may be be working for her too.

18 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

Beyond a whiff of bitterness at times from Paul and a sense that Luke knows this is not at all normal, I can't get a read on the offspring.

If there is one person who should be bitter it's Paul.  Somehow I think that as the oldest he might have taken the most responsibility, bore the brunt of the parental expectations as the first child, including hearing the talk he might get married and have a family someday, and here he is pushing 40 and he's still at home.   Could be wrong though. 

16 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

This.  I have 3 who have never agreed on pizza toppings much less the same weird career amalgams.  And they’d opt for tents in the yard before sharing bedrooms.

At one point I opted to stay in the attic rather than share a room with my sister.   And the fights over who would wash the dishes. 

[Four is Enough]

I watch a show on tv occasionally called "Leaving Polygamy" and it's  about the Warren Jeffs and family group of hard core   polygamists.

This situation, with Rick in charge, reminds me of Warren Jeffs. Dude's in PRISON and still runs the cult. What chance does Rick's sons have with him still in the house?

[nokidsmom]

50 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

This situation, with Rick in charge, reminds me of Warren Jeffs. Dude's in PRISON and still runs the cult. What chance does Rick's sons have with him still in the house?

Good point.  I am familiar with the Warren Jeff's cult as I have family who lives in the area where he ruled and she runs into a few of them at local stores.   Putting this guy in prison did not prevent him from exerting control.   If people are inclined to follow no matter what then it's not looking good for the Arndt boys.  

[SolomonFundy]

At this point, i just assume it's financial and emotional abuse tempered with genuine fear of survival on the outside. It would make sense that Rick and Cathy have enough stuff in their name, under their personal financial control, that the Manboys have very little chance of getting away without literally starting from nothing. They are aware of their own lifestyle abnormality (their parents and even the commercial media in which they've been featured all have reassured them that they are unusual), and maybe have internalized that to mean that there's something about them personally that is different in a bad way. They may feel that life for people "like them" would be impossible outside of the compound.

Then, there's the question of financial/equipment/documentation control.

People living with financially abusive and resource withholding spouses often struggle to leave due to a fear of survival, and the inability to accept a change of lifestyle. The Manboys have lived this life for decades. They know nothing else. If Rick and Cathy control all of the money they make (something we've long speculated about), up to and maybe including keeping legal documents, car titles, professional certifications, and other important forms of identification under lock and key, the Manboys would be virtually unable to leave without just walking away with the clothes on their backs. 

The fear of doing that, and then being denied contact with their siblings should they happen to find a way to survive, would be a powerful form of emotional bondage. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Forgive me if this has already been said in this thread as well as others, but I just read Tara Westover’s “Educated” and the Arendts remind me a lot of her family. They started out fairly normal, from normal families, with kids in school. A learning-disabled child led to homeschooling, and family businesses led to the kids working instead of studying. Then the father seems to have developed a mental illness, and the family became reclusive and avoided medical care. The middle of the book is a litany of horrible foolish accidents badly treated, with some family members probably suffering brain damage and getting weirder. Now the mother’s essential oil business is very successful, and about half of the family works in it and claims that there was nothing wrong with their parents. The other half broke free and supported Tara and her book, which the parents claim is filled with lies. (Tara and two of her brothers have PhDs despite the allegedly crappy homeschooling.) Anyway, the family dynamics sound a lot like the Arndts. At least they’re safety-conscious.