Josiah and Lauren Part 10: First Look at the Wedding

[Pecansforeveryone]

I think are similarities between Josh and Josiah, no doubt. One of the big ones being they both seem to dream of life beyond Arkansas. It's the,"Josiah looks like Josh, so Josiah will end up a cheater and a sleaze just like Josh" that I find objectionable. I certainly don't think it should be forbidden. I just plan to challenge it as an unfair comparison. 

[Greendoor]

Perhaps the reference to If we have children is an open acknowlegment of the possibility of the sort of problem Michael (nee Bates) is having.  Bad things can happen to good people, Michael and her husband want kids.  Their culture probably says it's God's punishment, I think their vow allows for it just being a possibility.

The assumption that the others have made perhaps is not as thoughtful as Josiah and Lauren.  

[TatiFish9]

Are we certain the Duggars visit this site?  I think they definitely comb the tabloids. Derick has retweeted several.

The rule has logical fallacies for sure. I don't mind any restriction  that protects children. I think people should be able to speculate about the adults at home or not with understanding that the speculation will be challenged.

I have not once thought Josiah was gay because I have not seen him in love or involved with a man or with any hints that he was doing such in secret.

I do wonder what fundies think of Brandon and Michaela's situation beyond "God has not blessed them with kids." They don't seem overly equipped to handle infertility issues. I do feel for Michaela on so many levels.  

 

[amendgitan]

On 7/18/2018 at 12:51 PM, Rachel333 said:

He was trying to say it the way it sounds in Spanish, which didn't sound like gibberish to me.

Yeah. I'm Hispanic. He pronounced well. 

[amendgitan]

 

On 7/18/2018 at 2:07 PM, victoriasponge said:

The smiles they were giving each other seemed genuine, though, and the first kiss seemed actually affectionate and, dare I say it, lustful. I'm hoping he's just overwhelmed with the commitment because I don't think he'd have done it this soon or this early were he a normal young man.

I have to say, watching them kiss, the smile he gave her after? It seemed very genuine to me. 

On 7/18/2018 at 2:16 PM, MiddleAgedLady said:

Some first thoughts. 

I have to agree with @singsingsing   Lauren really is into the Religion!

Looks like ‘honey’ is now the new ‘babe’

I think Josiah is trying to be mature since he was always seen as the jokester. 

Michelle’s dress is a travesty. 

 

She looks like frickin Hee Haw. It was ridiculous. 

On 7/18/2018 at 5:56 PM, SapphireSlytherin said:

As others have mentioned - Josiah looks dead inside. He's playing his role perfectly, and Lauren's the one who will "pay" for it in the long run.

Having seen the wedding footage AFTER having seen the "thank you" video, it's even more obvious that something's just not.right. with these two. The over-the-top kiss, the "I'm strong and manly and I'll carry you" action, the "I'm handsome" statement, and the (to my eyes) forced wiping away of (imaginary) tears as Lauren comes down the aisle, well...

 

Poor kids.

I do think a lot of that seemed forced and trying to prove something. But that could be because he's aware what people say on line. 

Admission: I'm a nut. I can rewind and stop a program and then ht the fast forward button while it's paused (Direct tv), which makes the footage scroll by in super slow motion. 

So I can see microexpressions, body language in minute detail, etc. 

Josiah didn't seem to connect with her during the kiss, with his hands or whole body. However, like I said above, his smiles seemed very genuine and he stared at her afterward the way someone stares at someone they want to have sex with. In my opinion.   

No way was that his first kiss. He knew how to do it far too well. It was very smooth and almost practiced. Like he's kissed many times before. 

Also, right after, he was staring deeply at her and smiling but then he stares outward immediately, into the audience and his whole face changed. And he seemed to be looking for someone. His face got serious and he did a little side eye to someone. Then he looked right back at her. 

Wiping off her kiss was also odd, although that was likely an attempt at hypermasculine posturing to convey he won't allow makeup on him even if it's transferred there by a kiss. 

Finally, my God she is beautiful. Stunning. And an adorable smile. 

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

13 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

I have not once thought Josiah was gay because I have not seen him in love or involved with a man or with any hints that he was doing such in secret.

Do you not once think of people as straight until they are seen as being in love with or involved with a member of the opposite sex?  Is your default view of people asexual, or heterosexual?

I am not saying anything about Josiah in particular, just that gay people are still gay even if they have never had sex, or been in a relationship, or outwardly shown evidence of a crush.  Just like straight people.  You don't have to wait until you lose your virginity to claim an orientation.  

[amendgitan]

On 7/19/2018 at 5:35 AM, lizzybee said:

Probably referring to the first as the day she surrendered her life to Christ.

 

Gross!

[Jug Band Baby]

17 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

I'll stop speculating about Josiah when people stop speculating about the Fabulous Pecan Theif. 

Poster's don't just get to have it both ways. 

Also, if this is about how our gossip can endanger the lives of fundies shouldn't we stop speculating about how unhappy the little girls are - for fear they might be corrected at home? 

Should we stop speculating about how unhappy Anna must be with her husband - for fear that if he cheats again, they'll blame her for it? 

Should we stop speculating about whether or not Jessa and Ben are preventing - for fear their fellow fundies will start to shun them? 

Why the hell is being gay the one big taboo that No One Must Name? 

The only people fundies hate more than not-white atheists is gay people.  If a gay person, or suspected gay person, is under a fundy roof, there's a chance that that person could get sent to one of those horrific gay-conversion camps.  So the last thing anyone wants is to contribute to a chance of someone, whether really gay or thought to be gay but straight, getting shipped off to a place so bad that trying to commit suicide to escape is something the camp leaders watch for.  Being beaten up at home for several hours is easy in comparison to those camps.  But we don't want that happening either.

There aren't camps like this to send off an unhappy girl or unhappy wife, and hours-long beatings aren't the usual punishment for not smiling.  There isn't a chance of actual death.

Also, Pecan Thief is a married adult with some kids.  He's not in any danger.  In fact, if he IS gay, then him marrying a woman and having sex and kids might be seen as inspiration for other fundies to say, "See? Being gay doesn't mean buttsecks with men! You can be happy like this guy with his penis-garage!"

[Jug Band Baby]

17 hours ago, BernRul said:

So then why does no one say a word when we talk about other inappropriate topics? Why is this the only discussion that goes too far? I can't help feeling it's because certain posters (not necessarily you) think being called gay is somehow worse than the others. And I think it's because a lot of us (and I'm including myself here) sometimes just look through the world with a heterosexual bias.

In the fundy world, the worst thing you can be is gay.  They'll forgive molesting a bunch of your sisters and having affairs with women, but these people outright hate gay people.  You convert, or you may as well end up dead.  Some of them advocate executing gay people.  It's serious.  For the minors and the ones still living at home, gay-speculation could make parents think that maybe, just maybe, they have a gay kid.

[eveandadam]

41 minutes ago, IntrinsicallyDisordered said:

Do you not once think of people as straight until they are seen as being in love with or involved with a member of the opposite sex?  Is your default view of people asexual, or heterosexual?

I am not saying anything about Josiah in particular, just that gay people are still gay even if they have never had sex, or been in a relationship, or outwardly shown evidence of a crush.  Just like straight people.  You don't have to wait until you lose your virginity to claim an orientation.  

That's actually an interesting point. I know this was not directed at me but I wanted to give my 2 cents:

As a gay person myself I do see people as default hetero as long as I don't know them better or anything about their personal life (relationships, or lack thereof, some past things). I think I do that because most of the people are just hetero sexual so this would be an assumption of majority, I guess, and most of the time it's correct. So the default is just the majority of people. A lot of people do have gaydar (straight people too) and therefore often have a feeling that someone might be gay without personally knowing them that well.

You can, of course, have a different orientation than straight without even having any experience at all. That's the whole point of having an orientation at all.

 

 

 

 

[Jug Band Baby]

On 7/24/2018 at 6:50 AM, IReallyAmHopewell said:

"And I DELIVERED EVERY ONE OF THEM" it's about HER!!!

I never got that.  She birthed them, but unless she was pulling them our of her body, others delivered them.

[amendgitan]

 

On 7/20/2018 at 12:30 PM, justodd said:

For example: this dress, which I bought in February. Viewed on the rack or on the model in the picture from the store’s website, it looks almost Duggar-approved (all it would need is some sort of sleeve, I think), due to the high neck and slightly below knee length. On me....not so much. 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Wow. Hot! 

[TatiFish9]

1 hour ago, IntrinsicallyDisordered said:

Do you not once think of people as straight until they are seen as being in love with or involved with a member of the opposite sex?  Is your default view of people asexual, or heterosexual?

I am not saying anything about Josiah in particular, just that gay people are still gay even if they have never had sex, or been in a relationship, or outwardly shown evidence of a crush.  Just like straight people.  You don't have to wait until you lose your virginity to claim an orientation.  

My default view is that people are capable of having the emotional and sexual experiences with whomever they are attracted to.  Until they identify, I do not assume. That's for people I know.

Josiah on the other hand has shown to be involved and attracted to women on a television show. I'm going to go with that moreso than the fact that he had pink pants on or is overly expressive, "metro" or other features given to men when then don't fit the traditional gender expectations.  

I do not think being gay is bad or wrong or any negative attribute that is given, if that is what's being insinuated.

I just want to be clear. 

 

[IntrinsicallyDisordered]

3 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

I do not think being gay is bad or wrong or any negative attribute that is given, if that is what's being insinuated.

I just want to be clear. 

 

I didn't think you were saying that, to also be clear.

In my personal experience, growing up in a religious home, it was very damaging to me and my sense of self that everyone assumed I was straight.  My sexuality was a secret I needed to keep hidden at all costs, something I wasn't even sure existed for awhile (I thought I was a singular monster who was warped and twisted because I had been abused.  The only "option" was heterosexuality, so I dutifully wore that mask).  If not for the constant drumbeat from my family, church, and society at the time that being gay was entirely a choice that only very disturbed people made, I might have had much less emotional and spiritual pain.  Even as an adult, before I came out to more people, every assumption that I was straight - for instance someone saying they could never see me experimenting - was a little knife in the heart.  It felt like I'd worn that mask so well the real me had died beneath it.

[Jug Band Baby]

On 7/20/2018 at 12:30 PM, justodd said:

Okay, I’m going to be the one to say it: a big part of why Michelle always looks so horribly dressed is because she has a ginormous rack, and (speaking from experience) that makes dressing in a manner that balances modesty, formal settings, and flattering appearance almost impossible. Many dresses that would look perfectly modest on other women become downright Nike! when they can barely contain a large bosom, and though sizing up is an option (and one I think she may have taken with this dress), that just leaves the rest of the body looking drowned out by excess fabric that creates an overall shapeless and frumpy effect. 

Even going back to the Tin Man monstrosity (which may be the most fitted and formal dress we’ve ever seen her wear), the shiny fabric coupled with the original neckline basically turned her boobs into two giant projectile missiles that not even the ridiculous dickey/turtleneck she wore underneath it could disguise. I think the best overall MoB/G dress she had was the navy one she wore to...Joy’s, I think (might have been Joe’s, since they’re all starting to blend together in my head). It covered her up enough to satisfy her crazy strict modesty standards, was a classic silhouette that flattered her shape, but it was also the simplest one she’s yet worn, and I want to say some peope criticized it for not being “dressy” enough, which kind of proves my point. With boobs above a certain size, you can have flattering, you can have modest, and you can have situationally appropriate, but it’s damn hard to find all three in a single garment.

I've got a 40" bust and 26" waist with 38" hips, and am so flat-tummied that I'm concave sometimes, and no ass, just curves.  I find that the more I try to hide by boobs or downplay my figure, the more it is noticed.  Bad fitting stuff draws a lot of attention, and that makes people more likely to notice.    A high neckline in a color that's not dark is going to show this big expanse of color.  A slight scoop to couple inches below the hollow of your neck breaks that up, which helps deemphasize.  A structured fabric with princess seams and no waist seam help make you look taller and also deemphasizes big boobage and hips.  Modest scooped necklines, structured fabric, princess seams, no waist seam.

I know Michelle's all about how collar bones showing at the devil, but when you've got big boobs and want to wear a lighter color, then it's going to be collar bones that no one notices, or having your bazongas stick out more.

[TatiFish9]

@IntrinsicallyDisordered your post breaks my heart. I get angry when I hear stories like yours, because I believe people should have the space to identify their sexuality on their own terms. I am glad you were able to come out despite what you had gone through. I believe many people still live in shame and secret, especially in communities like the church because there is so much hate and backlash. No one deserves that. No one.

Society does have a default on sexual orientation that is unfair and limiting. I don't believe our current model of idenification represents the totality of human experience. I think the majority of western populations default at solely hetero,  because that is what we have been socialized to do. 

 

[Dandruff]

I think Josiah was and is a nice guy who has had a particularly difficult relationship with his father.  Based on some things I've observed on the show over the years, I believe Josiah has taken a lot of unwarranted crap from JB.  I also think Josiah - like Josh - is fairly bright and probably wanted/needed more freedom to pursue his interests and talents.  

I hope Lauren is a good match for him and that he can now make somewhat more independent choices.

[amendgitan]

On 7/30/2018 at 7:54 AM, eveandadam said:

Why do so many people think that he is gay? Honestly, why? That first kiss of them...didn't look gay at all!

I agree. It didn't. Not to me.

But as a Queer person myself...I get a small sense. 

Hope I'm wrong because that can make for a life with something major that's missing. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@IntrinsicallyDisordered I'm so sorry you had to deal with that it always makes he heart sick to hear about these stories. I do hope your family has come to accept you for who you were born to be.

@TatiFish9 me too, I always stop to think of that man in AL who was a life long anti gay republican, until the day his lesbian daughter killed herself. He was protesting Roy Moore I beehive,  making sure other parents didn't make his mistake of turning his back on a gay child. Because until she died he though that having a gay child wasthe worst pain he could feel. Instead he found out having a child die because he wouldn't accept her for what she was, was was even worse pain.

[amendgitan]

On 7/31/2018 at 8:17 AM, eveandadam said:

But in their fundieworld, it actually is worse than other things, than e.g. being called weird, unhappy, or stupid, jealous or bitchy or over this whole fundie thing....because many fundies think that being gay is a treatable illness or a demon that needs to be worked on

or maybe to a Conversion Camp?

That's why I think we need to be extra careful with this topic.

That's actually a good point. Why does noone care about speculation regarding the Pecan Thief? Maybe because he is much older than Josiah and was only introduced as an adult to the show/public? Josiah grew up on the show...maybe we feel more protective towards the Duggar kids because of that?

 

No one is putting Josiah in a "camp" because people on Free Jinger are speculating about his sexuality. There's a lot stronger stuff on the internet at large. 

I think gossip coupled with what they felt themselves could've and may have resulted in Josiah being sent to alert as a teen. But he's an adult now. He's married. No one in his world is going to screw with him as long as he plays the role they all play, and doesn't end up doing something like his brother did. 

8 hours ago, Jug Band Baby said:

In the fundy world, the worst thing you can be is gay.  They'll forgive molesting a bunch of your sisters and having affairs with women, but these people outright hate gay people.  You convert, or you may as well end up dead.  Some of them advocate executing gay people.  It's serious.  For the minors and the ones still living at home, gay-speculation could make parents think that maybe, just maybe, they have a gay kid.

He's not a minor and he's not living at home. And speculation on this site isn't going to make one difference. It already all over the internet and has been for years. 

8 hours ago, amendgitan said:

 

Gross!

This is not a pro-fundie site and I am very anti-fundie. So for any confused about why I think it's gross that giving yourself to Christ would be the best day in your life, that's why. 

[Lurky]

1 hour ago, amendgitan said:

he's not living at home.

Do we actually know where he'll be living yet?  If it's on the compound, or in a house provided to him by his parents, that's pretty much the same as living at home, except worse, because if a single kid was kicked out of the TTH, there's a good chance they could go and stay with a grandparent/sibling/cousin Amy etc etc, but once they're married, and in most Duggar cases, the wife is pregnant immediately, getting thrown out would be so much worse. 

I'm a bit confused by the idea that the only thing banned on FJ is speculation of the sexuality of kid/ults living at home, because there are a range of other things against the rules here, from posting things from private pages, to sharing ways round geo-blocks on videos, to not speculating about victims of crimes etc etc.  Sexuality isn't a taboo here - it's just recognising that our baseless speculation and gossip could have real-world impacts on the Fundies we discuss.  We know that the Rods and the S'Mortons read here, for example, and while the Duggars might not, enough tabloid/magazine journalists do, who are more than happy to report what people say here as "Fans think...", so what we say frequently goes mainstream.

(Plus re the idea that the LGBT FJers are all OK with sexuality speculation, that someone suggested upthread - no we're not, signed A. Lesbian.  I've talked before about my partner's church's response to her being gay, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but especially not a sheltered, under-educated USA Fundy)

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

I SPECULATE that something bad went down between Jim Bob and Josiah and part of that is because Josiah is not chugging the koolaid.  Then there’s that other thing.  I do hope Josiah and Lauren can find real happiness.  Time will tell.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I do want to talk about how JB and Michelle treat the LGBT community. (I know the answer is badly. I just want to kind of put in a broader context.) Michelle's sister is an out lesbian. I know she doesn't live close by the Duggars, and the Ruarks, in general, don't seem super close to Michelle and Jim Bob's children. Having said that, I am curious as to whether or not the children have met their aunt. Are they allowed to talk to her on phone? Has she been invited to their weddings? For me, this is a huge, massive elephant in the room, away above and beyond wether or not the Dugar girls can wear pants. 

[Jug Band Baby]

10 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I do want to talk about how JB and Michelle treat the LGBT community. (I know the answer is badly. I just want to kind of put in a broader context.) Michelle's sister is an out lesbian. I know she doesn't live close by the Duggars, and the Ruarks, in general, don't seem super close to Michelle and Jim Bob's children. Having said that, I am curious as to whether or not the children have met their aunt. Are they allowed to talk to her on phone? Has she been invited to their weddings? For me, this is a huge, massive elephant in the room, away above and beyond wether or not the Dugar girls can wear pants. 

https://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2014/12/evelyn-ruark-michelle-duggars-lesbian-sister-speaks-out-on-famou/

Reportedly they rarely have contact, Michelle with any of her family, and haven't had any contact in years.

[Rachel333]

9 minutes ago, Lurky said:

(Plus re the idea that the LGBT FJers are all OK with sexuality speculation, that someone suggested upthread - no we're not, signed A. Lesbian.  I've talked before about my partner's church's response to her being gay, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but especially not a sheltered, under-educated USA Fundy)

I don't remember anyone saying that and I looked back over the last couple pages.  My post was the closest to that, and I definitely did not say "all." The actual conversation, with my post being the reply:

Quote

Quote

I know this probably wasn't your intent, but to me when I hear people say stuff like "why does everyone think he's gay that's so wrong" it makes me feel like being called gay is an insult. Like being  called gay is the worst thing you could ever call a straight person.

It feels that way to me too, and it's interesting that multiple LGBT+ members here have expressed that.

So you can see it's more nuanced than just being okay with sexuality speculation or not.

I've posted a lot about how the conversation about speculation often rubs me the wrong way and how it bothers me that when people talk about not speculating on sexuality they only mean non-straight sexuality (when assuming someone is straight can also have harmful effects), but I personally have never said that I think anyone we discuss here is gay because, when it comes down to it, I'm not really comfortable saying that. I'll take someone's sexuality at their word and right now all the fundies we discuss who are in relationships are in heterosexual ones.

I'm actually also often uncomfortable with the way people speculate on courtships that haven't been announced. I think it can get really invasive and I feel bad for the kids/young adults who are rumored to be courting someone who is just a friend, or who are in the very early stages of a relationship that they aren't ready to be public with yet. Just because they're straight doesn't mean they don't deserve some privacy too.