Josiah and Lauren Part 10: First Look at the Wedding

[eveandadam]

For the record, I don't think saying someone might be gay is an insult at all but to the Duggars and their friends it might be and I'm pretty sure it is. As this is a public forum were everyone can read and we know that the Duggars know about freejinger, it could potentially ruin the lives of those people we call "maybe gay" on here. Sometimes it's not the best to say everything even if we could.

Hm...could we create a private section to dicuss this?

 

[CarrotCake]

The 'if we have children' line in the vows sounded to me like they took a how-to-write-your-own-vows list from the internet. They started a few sentences with the same few words but then ended them differently, like they used some sort of fill-in form.

[AprilQuilt]

13 hours ago, Ms. Brightside said:

Here are the photos for anyone interested: 

 

It looks a lot like Geysir in Iceland to me. I thought initially there were too many trees for that to be correct, but depending on where they are standing it may be about right.

You'd think it would be too liberal a destination for them, but to be fair it is also trendy as hell.

[Rachel333]

For an example of the pressure on women to look attractive, here is what Mark Driscoll had to say about why Ted Haggard cheated on his wife with a man:

Quote

Most pastors I know do not have satisfying, free, sexual conversations and liberties with their wives. At the risk of being even more widely despised than I currently am, I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this. It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.

 

 

[eveandadam]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

Most pastors I know do not have satisfying, free, sexual conversations and liberties with their wives. At the risk of being even more widely despised than I currently am, I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this. It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.

 

Wow! Sure , a women is lazy if she doesn't look like a Top Model while raising and having more than 10 children....

[adidas]

Could they be in New Zealand?

[TatiFish9]

19 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

Wow! Sure , a women is lazy if she doesn't look like a Top Model while raising and having more than 10 children....

Funny how there is rarely mention of menletting themselves go which we know also happens.

@Rachel333 thanks for sharing that. It's so gross on many levels for him to attribute that to Ted Haggard's wife . I can't even comment. I hate this mentality.

[Rachel333]

Here is what Dan Savage had to say about Mark Driscoll's comments, by the way. (From this article.)

Quote

I’m sure Ted Haggard is saying something along these lines to his wife right now: ‘Oh, honey... I wouldn’t have been having those meth-fueled ass-banging sessions with that gay hooker if you hadn’t have let yourself go like that!’

I also think it's funny that, according to the article I just linked, "'Pastor Driscoll also advises against keeping “a secondary email account from which to build a secret identity."' One of the things that got him kicked out of the church he founded was the discovery that years ago he posted all sorts of gross things from an anonymous account, including:

Quote

“Ultimately, God created you and it is his penis. You are simply borrowing it for a while,” Driscoll wrote under the name William Wallace II in 2001. “Knowing that His penis would need a home, God created a woman to be your wife and when you marry her and look down you will notice that your wife is shaped differently than you and makes a very nice home.”

(From this article.)

Unfortunately, Mark Driscoll is now the pastor of another church, which was discussed on FJ. He has got to be one of my least favorite fundies, especially since he appeals to a more modern, even hipster, crowd.

[AlwaysExcited]

"Ultimately, God created you and it is his penis. You are simply borrowing it for a while," Driscoll wrote under the name William.

That must be one of the weirdest things I've ever read. 

[Rachel333]

Other awful things from Mark Driscoll: (I really hate this guy, in case you couldn't tell.)

Quote

"I said, ‘You need to go home and tell your husband that you’ve met Jesus and you’ve been studying the Bible, and that you’re convicted of a terrible sin in your life. And then you need to drop his trousers, and you need to serve your husband. And when he asks why, say, “Because I’m a repentant woman. God has changed my heart and I’m supposed to be a biblical wife. She says, ‘Really?’ I said, ‘Yeah. First Peter 3 says if your husband is an unbeliever to serve him with deeds of kindness.'"

Quote

Driscoll is a happily married man. Possibly. But in his own book he outs his own wife’s “sin” of being a victim of sexual abuse, blaming her for hiding her secret and allowing them to have really bad sex because of it. “My previously free and fun girlfriend was suddenly my frigid and fearful wife. She did not undress in front of me, required the lights to be off on the rare occasions we were intimate, checked out during sex, and experienced a lot of physical discomfort because she was tense… One night, as we approached the birth of our first child, Ashley, and the launch of our church, I had a dream in which I saw some things that shook me to my core. I saw in painful detail Grace sinning sexually during a senior trip she took after high school when we had just started dating. It was so clear it was like watching a film — something I cannot really explain but the kind of revelation I sometimes receive. I awoke, threw up, and spent the rest of the night sitting on our couch, praying, hoping it was untrue, and waiting for her to wake up so I could ask her. I asked her if it was true, fearing the answer. Yes, she confessed, it was. Grace started weeping and trying to apologize for lying to me, but I honestly don’t remember the details of the conversation, as I was shell-shocked. Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her.”

Quote

"First, masturbation can be a form of homosexuality because it is a sexual act that does not involve a woman. If a man were to masturbate while engaged in other forms of sexual intimacy with his wife then he would not be doing so in a homosexual way. However, any man who does so without his wife in the room is bordering on homosexuality activity, particularly if he’s watching himself in a mirror and being turned on by his own male body."

He also believed God sent him visions of members of his church sinning sexually.

This has even more from him.

[Rachel333]

13 minutes ago, AlwaysExcited said:

"Ultimately, God created you and it is his penis. You are simply borrowing it for a while," Driscoll wrote under the name William.

That must be one of the weirdest things I've ever read. 

Right? And with that logic a woman is also borrowing God's vagina.

[KeshetParparNesicha]

1 hour ago, TatiFish9 said:

Funny how there is rarely mention of menletting themselves go which we know also happens.

That doesn't bother wimmenz, cause all they need is someone to listen to them talk.

[FleeJanaFree]

6 hours ago, eveandadam said:

 As this is a public forum were everyone can read and we know that the Duggars know about freejinger, it could potentially ruin the lives of those people we call "maybe gay" on here. Sometimes it's not the best to say everything even if we could.

Hm...could we create a private section to dicuss this?

 

I ask this without heat...could you expand on this? I've seen this suggested before and it's confused me a bit. I'm not sure how it would ruin lives. Although I could see how it would embarrass a fundie. If fundies are reading gossip, don't they assume we're satan lying , and rally harder around the person in question? Like, we say factual things about J Rod all the time and that woman's groupies insist her heart is in the right place, she's a fabulous Christian, we're  jealous heathens, etc.

i feel like im not writing this effectively. I can't  find the right words. 

Do you think for example JimBob will read speculation and as a result ship a son off to Alert? 

My phones about to die, so I'll check back later if you respond! Really interested. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

55 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Right? And with that logic a woman is also borrowing God's vagina.

So if God has both a penis and a vagina, then God is a hermaphrodite. 

'splain that one, Fundies...

 

[nickelodeon]

@Rachel333 Cripes, what a repulsive sleaze. Can TLC's next unscripted series be about edgier-than-thou pastors who use the pulpit to brag about getting head and super-prudish fundie evangelists dueling to the death?

3 minutes ago, FleeJanaFree said:

I ask this without heat...could you expand on this? I've seen this suggested before and it's confused me a bit. I'm not sure how it would ruin lives. Although I could see how it would embarrass a fundie.[snip]

The reason we have the "no speculation about people living in their parents' homes" rule is to protect fundie kids - especially closeted fundie kids - from abuse by their homophobic culture. Like @eveandadam said, there's a possibility that our discussions could put people in a dangerous position: think about what would happen if people like the Andersons or Rodrigueses, who have bragged about physically "disciplining" kids for hours at a time, heard that one of their children "seems gay."

That said, while everyone in this thread seems mindful of this, last time we had this discussion, there were definitely a few posters who seemed to think the rule is in place because saying that someone might not be straight is ~so inappropriate, not everyone has to be gay you know!!!~~ So it's good to discuss and re-discuss the risks behind the rule.

[KelseyAnn]

I'll stop speculating about Josiah when people stop speculating about the Fabulous Pecan Theif. 

Poster's don't just get to have it both ways. 

Also, if this is about how our gossip can endanger the lives of fundies shouldn't we stop speculating about how unhappy the little girls are - for fear they might be corrected at home? 

Should we stop speculating about how unhappy Anna must be with her husband - for fear that if he cheats again, they'll blame her for it? 

Should we stop speculating about whether or not Jessa and Ben are preventing - for fear their fellow fundies will start to shun them? 

Why the hell is being gay the one big taboo that No One Must Name? 

[BernRul]

17 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

I'll stop speculating about Josiah when people stop speculating about the Fabulous Pecan Theif. 

Poster's don't just get to have it both ways. 

Also, if this is about how our gossip can endanger the lives of fundies shouldn't we stop speculating about how unhappy the little girls are - for fear they might be corrected at home?

This is probably more damaging than any speculation about a married adult.

7 hours ago, eveandadam said:

For the record, I don't think saying someone might be gay is an insult at all but to the Duggars and their friends it might be and I'm pretty sure it is. As this is a public forum were everyone can read and we know that the Duggars know about freejinger, it could potentially ruin the lives of those people we call "maybe gay" on here. Sometimes it's not the best to say everything even if we could.

Hm...could we create a private section to dicuss this?

 

I get this. That's why I respect the rule that we can't discuss orientation of kids at home. But on FJ we talk about a lot of things that would make life difficult for certain Duggars if their parents found out. Didn't people speculate years ago that Jinger might be in trouble because of the website's name?

So then why does no one say a word when we talk about other inappropriate topics? Why is this the only discussion that goes too far? I can't help feeling it's because certain posters (not necessarily you) think being called gay is somehow worse than the others. And I think it's because a lot of us (and I'm including myself here) sometimes just look through the world with a heterosexual bias.

[eveandadam]

18 minutes ago, BernRul said:

So then why does no one say a word when we talk about other inappropriate topics? Why is this the only discussion that goes too far? I can't help feeling it's because certain posters (not necessarily you) think being called gay is somehow worse than the others. And I think it's because a lot of us (and I'm including myself here) sometimes just look through the world with a heterosexual bias.

But in their fundieworld, it actually is worse than other things, than e.g. being called weird, unhappy, or stupid, jealous or bitchy or over this whole fundie thing....because many fundies think that being gay is a treatable illness or a demon that needs to be worked on

1 hour ago, FleeJanaFree said:

Do you think for example JimBob will read speculation and as a result ship a son off to Alert? 

 

or maybe to a Conversion Camp?

That's why I think we need to be extra careful with this topic.

23 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

I'll stop speculating about Josiah when people stop speculating about the Fabulous Pecan Theif.

That's actually a good point. Why does noone care about speculation regarding the Pecan Thief? Maybe because he is much older than Josiah and was only introduced as an adult to the show/public? Josiah grew up on the show...maybe we feel more protective towards the Duggar kids because of that?

 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I have two thoughts on this  1.  Because Si is trying, SO HARD to be happy and in love with a girl, any girl, and thinks that by praying and having a Godly wife that will take away his sinful gay thoughts.

OR

He is just a fun loving metrosexual fundy who is  horney AF and jumped on (literally) the 1st two girls who found him slightly interesting.

Either scenario is a recipe for disaster in a marriage.

[BernRul]

6 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

But in their fundieworld, it actually is worse than other things, than e.g. being called weird, unhappy, or stupid, jealous or bitchy or over this whole fundie thing....because many fundies think that being gay is a treatable illness or a demon that needs to be worked on

or maybe to a Conversion Camp?

That's why I think we need to be extra careful with this topic.

That's actually a good point. Why does noone care about speculation regarding the Pecan Thief? Maybe because he is much older than Josiah and was only introduced as an adult to the show/public? Josiah grew up on the show...maybe we feel more protective towards the Duggar kids because of that?

 

But Josiah is married to a perfect fundie bride. Lauren will probably be pregnant in a few months. To  his community, he is doing everything right right now. Is Jim Boob really going to read this forum, pull him from his wife just at the start of marriage, and throw him in a camp? 1 That would look worse to his community than some heathen's rumors and 2 that would look worse to the media. Is JB really going to risk another scandal when the shows going so well? All he cares about is appearances and right now Josiah appears to be doing everything right.

Speaking of scandals, you know what I personally think is worse for Josiah than gay speculation? All the comments about how he's just like Josh. He needed to be married quickly like Josh; he's acting insensitive like Josh;he sounds like Josh; Lauren acts like Anna. Because JB does not want another scandal. I think it's more likely that JB would watch Josiah like a hawk to make sure he doesn't screw up like his brother, stifling his freedom, than for Boob to tear  newlyweds apart and make his family look bad to the community and media. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

@BernRul, thank you for bringing up the Josh/Josiah comparisons. The speculation that Josiah is a total creep and a sleaze because he looks like Josh has always seemed deeply unfair and beyond the pale. To come at this discussion from a different perspective, with 19 kids, it's very likely one of them is LGBT. It's just more likely than not. Speculation as how Michelle and JB will handle this likelihood, is to to me a reasonable topic of discussion. 

[singsingsing]

22 minutes ago, eveandadam said:

Why does noone care about speculation regarding the Pecan Thief?

I do. I can't stand all 'The Fabulous David Waller' shit. He's regularly made fun of for (supposedly) being a closeted gay fundie man, and I hate it. If he is a closeted gay man, in his situation, it's really not funny. The only reason people decided that he must be gay was because he fit some stereotypes they had of gay men. He is literally, as far as I know, the only one who is actually snarked on here for his supposed sexuality. If we start to even hint that some other fundie might maybe possibly not be heterosexual, it's a huge deal and pages and pages of debate ensue. But TFDW? Nope, fair game! For some reason.

I understand and support the rule against speculating about kids and adults still living at home. I try to limit my speculation about their heterosexual behaviours, possible mental illnesses, etc. for the same reason. I support not engaging in baseless speculation about adults' sexuality, or mocking them for their supposed/speculated sexuality (which also includes mocking them for being horny - my God, the horror - or for being celibate). I don't support a ban on discussing the possibility of an adult not being heterosexual. I think that's an important topic which fully aligns with the forum's mission to discuss the dangers of, and damage done by, fundamentalism.

[singsingsing]

I've pointed out similarities I see in Josh and Josiah. I don't think that should be off-limits either. I totally disagree with making assumptions about Josiah based on similarities he may or may not have with Josh, though - that's not fair. What concerns me about Josiah's similarities with Josh are certain similarities in their personalities that I believe probably make both struggle to be happy within fundamentalism (vs. others like Joe or even Jessa who seem content and more or less go with the flow). 

Any concerns I have about Josiah come mainly from observing his personality and behaviours just in and of themselves, without any reference to similarities to Josh or anyone else. Josiah also reminds me a little bit of Jill in some ways, but I don't think that means he's going to pursue midwifery and fake missionary work in Central America, you know?

[BernRul]

@singsingsing I don't think it should be off limits either. I also think that Josiah, like Josh, has certain traits that make him unhappy with their lifestyle. I pointed it out because I think calling Siah a horny sleeze is, to me, more likely to have a negative consequence from his parents than calling him maybe gay.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

23 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I've pointed out similarities I see in Josh and Josiah. I don't think that should be off-limits either. I totally disagree with making assumptions about Josiah based on similarities he may or may not have with Josh, though - that's not fair. What concerns me about Josiah's similarities with Josh are certain similarities in their personalities that I believe probably make both struggle to be happy within fundamentalism (vs. others like Joe or even Jessa who seem content and more or less go with the flow). 

Any concerns I have about Josiah come mainly from observing his personality and behaviours just in and of themselves, without any reference to similarities to Josh or anyone else. Josiah also reminds me a little bit of Jill in some ways, but I don't think that means he's going to pursue midwifery and fake missionary work in Central America, you know?

This is a good point perhaps he isn't happy in fundyland, and he's trying to make it work. I don't know, but something is off about this wedding, either he's gay, or he's just not into the BS of fundy life, or just a normal horn dog trying to fit into the narrow box of fundydum. He's rushing though it hoping something will make his "sinful" nature" stop, what ever that "sinful nature" may be.

1 minute ago, BernRul said:

@singsingsing I don't think it should be off limits either. I also think that Josiah, like Josh, has certain traits that make him unhappy with their lifestyle. I pointed it out because I think calling Siah a horny sleeze is, to me, more likely to have a negative consequence from his parents than calling him maybe gay.

Why would him just being a normal horny 20 something male make him a sleaze?  Yeah, Joslys I pig, he's always been a pig, but I don't get that from Si, He doesn't give off the asshole vibe that would make him a horny sleaze. You can be both horny AF and a keep your hands to yourself, but in Duggarland even thoughts of sex outside of marriage are considered sinful hence the hurry to land a girl. .