Josiah and Lauren Part 10: First Look at the Wedding

[Carm_88]

I just don't think that Josiah fits into the fundie male box. I always thought that he might have dreams bigger than the fundie world and the wedding day was crushing for that reason. But who knows? 

[Pecansforeveryone]

I have long felt Josiah didn't into the fundie male box, for reasons that have little to do with sexual orientation. I also have felt that Josiah was scapegoated by JB, partly due to this and partly due to JB's insecurity and douchiness. 

[seraaa]

Having watched the episode(s) I don't get the impression that Josiah and Lauren aren't into each other, to be honest. They seem a well-matched couple.

But as ever, who knows anything.

[Nikedagain?]

2 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I don't remember anyone saying that and I looked back over the last couple pages.  My post was the closest to that, and I definitely did not say "all." The actual conversation, with my post being the reply:

So you can see it's more nuanced than just being okay with sexuality speculation or not.

I've posted a lot about how the conversation about speculation often rubs me the wrong way and how it bothers me that when people talk about not speculating on sexuality they only mean non-straight sexuality (when assuming someone is straight can also have harmful effects), but I personally have never said that I think anyone we discuss here is gay because, when it comes down to it, I'm not really comfortable saying that. I'll take someone's sexuality at their word and right now all the fundies we discuss who are in relationships are in heterosexual ones.

I'm actually also often uncomfortable with the way people speculate on courtships that haven't been announced. I think it can get really invasive and I feel bad for the kids/young adults who are rumored to be courting someone who is just a friend, or who are in the very early stages of a relationship that they aren't ready to be public with yet. Just because they're straight doesn't mean they don't deserve some privacy too.

Yes! I can find oodles of things that we KNOW for a fact! Red weens, funeral selfies, Pistol Pete bullies a teen girl, etc, etc. 

[TatiFish9]

Kinda random comment, brought on by Josiah speculation topic.

Sometimes, I don't understand what reality stars and fans alike (myself included) truly want from this business. These people put their lives on display for cash but expect people to play fair. It doesn't work that way. I do feel bad for them because it is a hellish deal to make. Probably looks great a first, but once the machine gets cranking...

No reality star gone famous has been spared from media backlash, unnecessary prodding for information and outlandish speculation. But that is the nature of the beast. They can have a small cult following (npi) who love them to death and/or are polite and never expect anything but what they put out. Or they can live in a humongous ranch home with property extension, have a family fund that pays for them to live a pretty decent life while they fundie on just like they've always wanted to do.

I like to think I am a pretty open minded person who tends to respect people's right to with hold info but what is reality tv, really? Are we starting to believe Jim Bob when he tells us this is a ministry?

[llg1234]

I  can understand both sides of the argument here. But, honestly? Speculation is the name of the game here, also. The entire site is named after an (at the time) underage fundie daughter. So, if you want to talk about how gossip can have a negative impact on a 2nd gen fundie, let's keep in mind that WE could have negatively impacted Jinger's life as well. 

[Lurky]

11 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I'm actually also often uncomfortable with the way people speculate on courtships that haven't been announced. I think it can get really invasive and I feel bad for the kids/young adults who are rumored to be courting someone who is just a friend, or who are in the very early stages of a relationship that they aren't ready to be public with yet. Just because they're straight doesn't mean they don't deserve some privacy too.

Yes, I agree, that's why I said SEXUALITY speculation, not homosexuality speculation. 

I think it's just as damaging to be suggesting that especially Fundy maidens are Courting a specific guy, because in these models, the girl/young woman is supposed to be completely pure, and not even think of a guy at all until her parents suggest him to her.  I was incredibly uncomfortable in the JRod threads, eg, when people were trying to guess which young man was Courting Nurie, and said so. 

[just_ordinary]

I actually don’t get the need for speculating on anyone’s sexuality (men/women/adult/minor/straight/gay). Do people really have an interest in what kind of sexuality someone is when there is no romantic interest involved? Do you have an interest in everyone’s sexuality around you (postman, dentist, busdriver, teacher...)?

That is way different than discussing how  Fundamentalism and society in general treat not-straight people and how harmful their beliefs are to them.

It is also different to talk about publicly displayed sexual behaviour (looking at you JB&M).

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, Lurky said:

I think it's just as damaging to be suggesting that especially Fundy maidens are Courting a specific guy, because in these models, the girl/young woman is supposed to be completely pure, and not even think of a guy at all until her parents suggest him to her.

Very true, and that makes me sad for those fundie girls.

2 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

It is also different to talk about publicly displayed sexual behaviour (looking at you JB&M).

Agreed.  

[TatiFish9]

6 hours ago, llg1234 said:

 So, if you want to talk about how gossip can have a negative impact on a 2nd gen fundie, let's keep in mind that WE could have negatively impacted Jinger's life as well. 

Is there more information on this? Did the Duggars come here in the past?

[TatiFish9]

5 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I actually don’t get the need for speculating on anyone’s sexuality (men/women/adult/minor/straight/gay). Do people really have an interest in what kind of sexuality someone is when there is no romantic interest involved? Do you have an interest in everyone’s sexuality around you (postman, dentist, busdriver, teacher...)?

That is way different than discussing how  Fundamentalism and society in general treat not-straight people and how harmful their beliefs are to them.

It is also different to talk about publicly displayed sexual behaviour (looking at you JB&M).

But how is different than speculating if someone is pregnant? Where they may live? Where they're going on a honeymoon? If they have true chemistry? What they'll be doing 10years from now? How they're raising or going to raise their kids? Who decorates their house? If a couple will break their courtship?

I am actually neutral on this particular aspect of the topic. I don't speculate on these kiddults' sexual orientation. However, I don't think it is pragmatic to suggest *let's speculate about all the things except the ones that don't make sense to me or don't  make us feel uncomfortable.* That is why I lean towards the side that it should be allowed. 

And people get waaaaaay too pissy about speculation of couples who are PDAing it up before marriage. That makes no sense. None of it does really. lol Either allow all the speculation (protecting minors) or say this site is only for political snark against fundies. I would still post here either way because I do both. That's just my perspective. Not law. 

 

[Rachel333]

10 hours ago, llg1234 said:

I  can understand both sides of the argument here. But, honestly? Speculation is the name of the game here, also. The entire site is named after an (at the time) underage fundie daughter. So, if you want to talk about how gossip can have a negative impact on a 2nd gen fundie, let's keep in mind that WE could have negatively impacted Jinger's life as well.

Very true. Even if the Duggars don't read here regularly, I'm sure they have been aware for a long time that there is a website named after Jinger due to the perception that she was a bit of a rebel. In fundies' eyes a rebel is a terrible thing to be; I've seen children be punished for the slightest hints of rebellion. I think it is very possible, even probable, that the existence of FJ has negatively affected Jinger's life due to a pressure to show that she's not a rebel and doesn't need to be freed.

[Georgiana]

3 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

But how is different than speculating if someone is pregnant? Where they may live? Where they're going on a honeymoon? If they have true chemistry? What they'll be doing 10years from now? How they're raising or going to raise their kids? Who decorates their house? If a couple will break their courtship?

I am actually neutral on this particular aspect of the topic. I don't speculate on these kiddults' sexual orientation. However, I don't think it is pragmatic to suggest *let's speculate about all the things except the ones that don't make sense to me or don't  make us feel uncomfortable.* That is why I lean towards the side that it should be allowed. 

And people get waaaaaay too pissy about speculation of couples who are PDAing it up before marriage. That makes no sense. None of it does really. lol Either allow all the speculation (protecting minors) or say this site is only for political snark against fundies. I would still post here either way because I do both. That's just my perspective. Not law. 

 

If you speculate that someone is pregnant, you might hurt their feelings, but that's about it.  Ditto to all the other examples.

But we have to remember that there still is real danger for LGBTQ+ people in many areas and communities.  If you speculate that a person is gay, you put them at real risk for reprisals in their community that may range from unpleasant to overtly violent.  Many people in these communities believe that LGBTQ+ people are pedophiles and child molesters, so a rumor about someone being gay may cause families with kids to shun them or treat them with suspicion.  A rumor of homosexuality could prevent someone from serving in youth ministry, being a little league sports coach, or even being allowed to fill a leadership role in the church community.  

Obviously, this speculation is ALLOWED on the board now that Siah is married, but that doesn't mean it's on an equal level with other forms of speculation.  There are people in fundie communities that genuinely believe they should be allowed to stone people for being gay.  As far as I know, no one has ever advocated public execution for pregnancy, address location, honeymoon choice, lack of chemistry between married couples, decor taste, or broken courtships.  That's the difference, and it's a big one.  

Not all speculation is created equal, and that should be kept in mind when speculating.  

[nellautumngirl]

They sadly remind me of Anna and Smuggar, Josiah seems to take her for granted already and he seems checked out emotionally. I think his self-esteem has really suffered in his teenage years due to the piss-poor "parenting" of Michelle and JB, ie implying his interests in art and comedy weren't manly enough and finally resigning himself to a life he doesn't really want. I don't see this ending well.

[TatiFish9]

@Georgiana

I am not here to disagree with that perspective, I am pointing out the argumental flaws that causes this topic to come up every 5 months.

Going with what you're saying, then speculation about homosexuality should never be permitted especially for the kidsults we know are still financially dependent upon a family trust. 

Furthermore, gay speculation about a married fundie can still cause grief and isolation once the person is married. It does not stop the day they have that magical first kiss. It only increases then as we see with Josiah - "fake kiss".

But here's were I bow out. I don't find it necessary to exploit the painful history and reality of an entire group just to bring about a point that won't change rules that I'm not even against.

They still don't make sense. And they're still not logically sound.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Does Josiah have a job, y’know, like an income?  Lauren will be pregnant soon so no income there for a while. I did a fj search and can’t find any job info for Josiah.......wondering.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

2 hours ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

Does Josiah have a job, y’know, like an income?  Lauren will be pregnant soon so no income there for a while. I did a fj search and can’t find any job info for Josiah.......wondering.

Presumably he’s part of the family car lot and real estate businesses.

[luv2laugh]

From what I understand, and I could be wrong:

John is a part-time police officer, (pilot?), and does he help Josh with his car selling business?

Joe is starting his -own- car lot business. Kendra mentioned, "I'm at home and helping Joe out with his used car selling business that he's started" on the new episode this season.

Austin does house-flipping. I am not sure if he does this for JB with his real estate business, does anyone know?

I have no idea what Josiah or Ben do.

I believe there was an episode where Jed or Jer was explaining you "start out" by mowing the lawn on JB's real estate properties, then you "move up" by selling cars, and the end-goal is getting more involved in the real estate business. Can anyone clue me in?

[meowfundiecatz]

4 hours ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

Does Josiah have a job, y’know, like an income?  Lauren will be pregnant soon so no income there for a while. I did a fj search and can’t find any job info for Josiah.......wondering.

I assume he works for JB like all of the other sons . Real estate and/or car sales.

[BernRul]

2 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

From what I understand, and I could be wrong:

John is a part-time police officer, (pilot?), and does he help Josh with his car selling business?

Joe is starting his -own- car lot business. Kendra mentioned, "I'm at home and helping Joe out with his used car selling business that he's started" on the new episode this season.

Austin does house-flipping. I am not sure if he does this for JB with his real estate business, does anyone know?

I have no idea what Josiah or Ben do.

I believe there was an episode where Jed or Jer was explaining you "start out" by mowing the lawn on JB's real estate properties, then you "move up" by selling cars, and the end-goal is getting more involved in the real estate business. Can anyone clue me in?

I feel bad for the boys. I  know that we usually focus on how bad it is for the girls, and it really really is, but when you put it like this it just shows how limited the boys are. What if they don't want to be a used car salesman? What if they wanted to sell literally anything else? If you aren't going to let your boys go to college, why can't they at least branch out into other buisnesses or blue collar work like contstruction or plumbing. 

What's the point of having children if you are going to limit them so much?

[karen77]

Well, looks like it was Austria

 

https://people.com/tv/josiah-duggar-lauren-swanson-honeymoon-why-they-chose-austria/

 

[louisa05]

23 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Very true. Even if the Duggars don't read here regularly, I'm sure they have been aware for a long time that there is a website named after Jinger due to the perception that she was a bit of a rebel. In fundies' eyes a rebel is a terrible thing to be; I've seen children be punished for the slightest hints of rebellion. I think it is very possible, even probable, that the existence of FJ has negatively affected Jinger's life due to a pressure to show that she's not a rebel and doesn't need to be freed.

Based on my experience with fundies, no, it probably has not had any negative effects on her.

Possibly quite the opposite. Satan attacks the holiest people. We (FJ as a whole) are not Christians with the gift of prophecy, we are tools of Satan. If we were good Bible believing Christians, we wouldn't be on an internet forum talking about other good Christians in a negative way. Thus, if Jinger is being attacked by tools of Satan, she must be doing something right or God must have a special call on her life for ministry or perhaps He has planned for her godly example to change all of our hearts. 

And so they likely sometimes pray for all of us to know Jesus as well. 

*None of this is to say that many FJers are not Christians, but the Duggars would never think that we are. 

[Suz8710]

Josiah definitely sells cars, he posts on FB in cars for sale groups. Not sure if he does other things. It seems like the cars are Josh, Joe, Josiah and maybe Jed and occasionally the others? 

I wonder what happened with Joe and the real estate biz. I thought he even has his license. 

[DillyDally]

Switzerland, Austria.. the Duggars are getting closer and closer to me. If Jabbie decide to honeymoon in Germany, I might have to keep a lookout. Also, Vienna is less than 5 hours drive from where I live, it's strange to think how "close" they were 

[SorenaJ]

I’m so jealous that they went to Vienna, I would love to go back. It’s a wonderful city.