Jinjer 31: Books, Books, and More Books

[Letizia]

22 hours ago, elliha said:

Fashion and Jesus, what more do you need?

To be honest, i think they did find some kind of connection on a personal level, perhaps good fit of personalities. Yes, Jinger is sheltered but perhaps he saw she wanted more? Maybe he was smart enough to understand that her upbringing was the main reason she was uneducated and not because she didn't want to learn? Perhaps he picked Jinger against his own common sense because he was in love with her? I don't get why people say he sought Jinger out, as far as I know he met up with the Duggars for some reason (it might have been something as simple as curiosity) and then he met and got to know Jinger. 

I think they will have kids quite soon but I am very glad they have been able to spend some time together before the first one comes along. I would not be at all surprised by an announcement late 2017.

The notion that Jeremy could only be interested in Jinger because she isn’t educated and is sheltered has always rubbed me the wrong way. We recognize that these girls are victims and brainwashed yet at the same time some are saying their only possible appeal is as uneducated broodmares. 

 Jinger has lots of positive attributes and comes across as inquisitive with a desire to experience life and learn. It stood out to me that during the courting period at the racetrack Jeremy backed off with the racing because he said he wanted to see if Jinger had a competitive streak. He saw that she did when she passed all the brothers he said he liked that. He has also pointed out that he wishes she had more self confident and at he tries to encourage that. People focus on Jeremy being an ass with the coffee but ignore that he acknowledged that Jinger was right,said she was smart, and that when he asked how she knew it would spill she snarked “because the laws of physics”. Was he an dismissive ass? Yep. Will it happen again? No because he admitted that Jinger right right he was a wrong. 

 I also think Jessa knows Jinger well enough to know that Jinger wanted slightly more free life hence she thought Jeremy would be of interest to her beyond fashion. She doesn’t lead a life I  would ever choose but I don’t think it is just a stroke of luck that Jinger has a husband who lives in another state, is fine with pants/bare arms, and hasn’t once stated he wants as many kids as God wants them to have. 

[singsingsing]

21 minutes ago, Letizia said:

Was he an dismissive ass? Yep. Will it happen again? No because he admitted that Jinger right right he was a wrong. 

Er... that's a fairly naive sentiment. But I hope you're right.

I think most of us, when we talk about Jeremy pursuing Jinger because she was naive/meek/ignorant, are basing our assumptions on the things Jeremy himself has said, as well as on the fact that he specifically chose to pursue a Duggar girl when he could have gone for any number of more worldly, independent women. That doesn't mean he's an evil sociopath who only went after Jinger because she was meek and malleable. People are complicated. Jeremy can have bad qualities and make bad choices without being the devil, and he can have good qualities and do nice things without being a saint.

[lomo6]

@Letizia You make some good points, but I'm still somewhat skeptical of Jeremy's motives, even if I haven't seen anything explicitly problematic about how they interact on the show. It's not like you just accidentally fall for a Duggar after meeting at work or the gym and then friending each other on Facebook. Would Jeremy have through all the trouble of pursuing Jinger and accepted JimBob's absolutely absurd dating rules if the Duggars weren't on TV? I kind of doubt it. That doesn't mean they're a bad match or that he has deeply nefarious motives. But I will always give side-eye to a guy who grew up in the "real world" and then choses to pursue a fundie girl. 

[Thorns]

14 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

I am currently reading the Wheel of Time series and really enjoying it. Does anyone have any suggestions for other books I may enjoy? Loving this book thread drift. 

I would try Raymond E. Feist, either the Magician or the collaboration with Jenny Wurts Daughter of the Empire. You might also enjoy the Belgariad by David Eddings, even though it is not nearly as rich in detail as WoT

[LacyMay]

I think when speculating about why Jeremy pursued Jinger we need to remember that we have an incredibly limited amount of information to go from. 

Maybe they met on this mission trip clicked and spent almost the whole trip talking and getting to know each other. Who knows? Certainly not me. 

We saw what 2% of their courtship and 5% of their engagement? We can speculate all we want. But it's just speculation. 

Also (And I debated a bit about saying this and I don't want to start anything so I'm just going to say it and leave it) I think that comments about would Jeremy have gone to all the trouble if Jinger wasn't a Duggar has potential to be misconstrued as a bit...mean. Like almost insinuating that Jinger or any of the other girls somehow aren't "worth" the trouble to marry. I don't think that was how it's been meant, but I've seen enough variations on it to want to say something. 

[SweetJuly]

We can't be certain that what is shown on Counting On is true, but from what was said earlier in the current season, Ben and Jessa were in Texas for some reason and Jeremy was a friend of a friend who gave them a ride.

Jessa saw Jeremy and thought Jinger might like him - apparently based on a sweater Jeremy wore, but Jessa seems savvy enough to look beyond a fashionable item of clothing. Jessa and Jinger seem rather close, and Jessa probably has a very good idea of Jinger's preferences and what she would have been looking for in a partner.

I'm not familiar with the exact timeline of Jinger and Jeremy getting to know each other after that, but based on what we know, Jeremy didn't actively seek out and pursue Jinger. Instead, they were initially set up by Ben and Jessa, and then probably met and hit it off.

[Lurky]

@Jinder Roles If you like Aidan Gillen, I hope you've seen Queer As Folk (the original Russell T Davies series, not the American knock-off) - it's not at all Safe For Work and very UK-specific, but it was groundbreaking, incredible TV, really well written and made, and I love it (Vince's birthday party, such an evil thing to do!)

[VelociRapture]

As far as I remember...

Sometime in the second half of 2015 is when Benessa first met Jeremy. They were somewhere in Texas for a speaking engagement and Ben called a friend to see if they were free. They weren’t, but recommended a place to fellowship - I believe that turned out to be Jeremy’s place or church. Regardless that’s when he first made contact with the Duggars and it doesn’t seem as if he exactly sought them out.

Jeremy was around for Jessa’s baby shower that October. He was actually filmed for one of the Counting On specials they did and I believe he had a TH as well. It’s extremely likely he had either already been introduced to Jinger at this point or he met her for the first time during this time.

That December, he went on a mission trip with the Duggars to SCA. He first met the Dills at this point. Jinger also claims she fell in love with him on this trip. Jeremy asked JimBob’s permission (gag) to get to know Jinger better at this point and received it.

They began courting around five months later, in late May. Engagement was only two months later in late July. They married in early November and are a month shy of their first wedding anniversary. 

To be honest, this seems to have been one of the more natural spousal introductions we’ve seen with the Duggars. Same with the Forsyths and JoKen. I have mixed thoughts on Jeremy though - I think he honestly cares for his wife and I don’t think he sought them out the way some posters do. But Jeremy still rubs me the wrong way, most likely because of his sermons and disgusting beliefs that he attempts to wrap in intellectualism.

If you can ignore that massive baggage, he definitely isn’t the worst spouse Jinger could have wound up with by a long shot. 

[Haley]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

To be honest, this seems to have been one of the more natural spousal introductions we’ve seen with the Duggars.

I completely agree. Meeting your future spouse through your brother-in-law is a lot more natural than having him hand picked by your dad, like Derick was for Jill. They didn't even meet through their church in Arkansas, where a lot of the relationships seem to have been heavily guided/encouraged/planned by the parents.

[2manyKidzzz]

Jeremy is a nice looking man. He could have many "choices" of women to date. So I think just as descrbed above, they clicked and fell in love. Being on a TV show may not really be that attractive in real life, aside from some income which is uncertain as to how long it will go on.

[Knight of Ni]

Ok so now that we’ve gotten back on topic I’m going to derail the thread again to ask a question about books. (Sorry but I’m looking for an answer from a source that’s not trying to sell me something.) How do I get audio books on kindle? From what I see on Amazon I have to purchase a monthly subscription to audible. I really don’t want to have to pay for something to use the audiobook I’ve already paid for so I was just wondering if there was a way I could listen without audible. 

[singsingsing]

Back on the books topic: I just want to say thanks to the FJers who mentioned Louise Penny. Apparently I'm a terrible excuse for a Canadian because I'd never heard of her before. A couple days later I was on the Chapters website, and there was her latest book staring me straight in the face. So I took the hint. I'm currently reading Still Life and loving it!

[Carm_88]

10 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Back on the books topic: I just want to say thanks to the FJers who mentioned Louise Penny. Apparently I'm a terrible excuse for a Canadian because I'd never heard of her before. A couple days later I was on the Chapters website, and there was her latest book staring me straight in the face. So I took the hint. I'm currently reading Still Life and loving it!

Louise Penny is Canadian? Oops. I was given her first three books for Christmas a couple of years ago and still haven't been motivated to read them. Now I feel bad. 

[Maggie Mae]

3 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

How do I get audio books on kindle? From what I see on Amazon I have to purchase a monthly subscription to audible. I really don’t want to have to pay for something to use the audiobook I’ve already paid for so I was just wondering if there was a way I could listen without audible. 

You should be able to move them from a computer, depending on which kindle you have. 

If you are Canadian, I think you can get the Overdrive app. 

I have audible but I can't use the narration because my audible account and my kindle account are two different email addresses. So far Amazon has been unable to combine them or move them over. :/

[FleeJanaFree]

I listen to audio books via the overdrive app. (Free from the library) I actually don't use my actual kindle at all anymore; I downloaded the app onto my iPad and used to read free Amazon books, but I now boycott them. I'm sure there's a way, though. Are they already purchased?

 

....ok found this. Hope itHelps

[calimojo]

On 10/3/2017 at 2:01 PM, Letizia said:

The notion that Jeremy could only be interested in Jinger because she isn’t educated and is sheltered has always rubbed me the wrong way. We recognize that these girls are victims and brainwashed yet at the same time some are saying their only possible appeal is as uneducated broodmares. 

 Jinger has lots of positive attributes and comes across as inquisitive with a desire to experience life and learn. It stood out to me that during the courting period at the racetrack Jeremy backed off with the racing because he said he wanted to see if Jinger had a competitive streak. He saw that she did when she passed all the brothers he said he liked that. He has also pointed out that he wishes she had more self confident and at he tries to encourage that. People focus on Jeremy being an ass with the coffee but ignore that he acknowledged that Jinger was right,said she was smart, and that when he asked how she knew it would spill she snarked “because the laws of physics”. Was he an dismissive ass? Yep. Will it happen again? No because he admitted that Jinger right right he was a wrong. 

 I also think Jessa knows Jinger well enough to know that Jinger wanted slightly more free life hence she thought Jeremy would be of interest to her beyond fashion. She doesn’t lead a life I  would ever choose but I don’t think it is just a stroke of luck that Jinger has a husband who lives in another state, is fine with pants/bare arms, and hasn’t once stated he wants as many kids as God wants them to have. 

You make a lot of good points here.  Jinger is a sweet and beautiful young woman, and she seems to be a good sport, willing to try to new things and also seemed eager to have some kind of break away from her family. 

Jeremy seems sincere in his affection for her.  However,  while I agree that he didn't come seeking a duggarette,  he also didn't shy away from it either.  I think Jeremy is part opportunist and a pretty, passive, compliant woman from a famous 'Christian' family was obviously of interest to him.  A lot of people would not have wanted to get involved in this big chaotic mess.  And many men would not want a woman who has only been raised to be dependent and passive.  That Jeremy listed one of her most attractive attributes as 'meekness' is telling.  Would Jeremy have been interested in a more assertive woman, Like Jessa for instance? 

I also think that in some way,  Jinger and Jeremy were able to have enough privacy that Jeremy was aware that Jinger was looking for a different life than how she was raised.  I think Jeremy likes a project.  I think he likes the idea that he is opening Jinger's world.  I think he likes that he is perceived as giving her more freedom.  I think he is social media savvy and he saw that Jinger was a fan favorite and many wished she could break away to live in a city, pursue her photography and be able to express herself. 

None of this means that Jeremy doesn't actually care for Jinger as I am sure he does.  But I also think he sees himself as more of a benevolent 'headship' and within his own perimeters he will allow her some freedom, but he will still expect obedience and will not let her venture out too far from the patriarchal plan.  He may not load her up with kid after kid, and he may be fine with her exploring some secular pursuits, etc.  But I think he would be threatened if she asserted her independence. 

From Jinger's point of view, she may never feel the need to to do that, because she may feel quite liberated compared to her previous life.  She has more freedom over he clothing, more freedom over what to cook for meals, more interesting things to see and do in the city, and is encouraged and supported in her photography and even intellectual pursuits like reading.  These may be more than enough for her to feel happy and content for years to come.  Our idea of freedom is unlikely to be Jinger's idea of freedom.  So we can't assume she is restless for more. 

I never have doubted that the feelings and the attraction between Jer and Jing was sincere.  They always have had a comfortable physical chemistry and do seem to truly enjoy each other.  I think Jeremy will not back down from JB if the occasion arises and I think Jinger will side with her husband should there ever be a need to choose. 

Terrible belief system aside, they seem pretty solid and no reason to suspect otherwise.  I think Jeremy has terrible beliefs.  He is so mistaken in his theology and the has the potential to influence others to share the same beliefs.  It is shocking to me that someone with his previous life experience would be so incredibly narrow and intolerant. 

[calimojo]

I would find Jeremy so much more interesting, if he actually really dug into his theology, and evaluated it.  I think it would be amazing to see he and Jinger start to reject the extremism of their beliefs, and to actually move toward a Liberal Christian, or Progressive Christian viewpoint.  That would make some very compelling TV to see that change and show how they navigate  that with her family.  It would be interesting TV, if the next time someone asks "are you pregnant yet", if Jeremy or Jinger just said, No,  we are planning to wait a few years.  We believe that God gave us intelligence and insight so that we can actively live our lives instead of passively waiting to see 'what he has planned for us".  In fact, we believe that what he has planned for us, for all of us, is to use our brains, use our insight and be accountable for our own lives.  We believe he wants us to do the right thing because we choose to do that, not because we are compelled to do it. " 

Jeremy is shortsighted if he thinks he is going to make it big as preacher with his current situation.  Strict Conservative Christians are sadly not all that unique.  If he had any courage, he would go a different direction.  And, if he did, I think they would find many more rewards, not to mention just be better people in general.

[Lurky]

9 hours ago, calimojo said:

That would make some very compelling TV to see that change and show how they navigate  that with her family.  It would be interesting TV, if the next time someone asks "are you pregnant yet", if Jeremy or Jinger just said, No,  we are planning to wait a few years.  We believe that God gave us intelligence and insight so that we can actively live our lives instead of passively waiting to see 'what he has planned for us".  In fact, we believe that what he has planned for us, for all of us, is to use our brains, use our insight and be accountable for our own lives.  We believe he wants us to do the right thing because we choose to do that, not because we are compelled to do it. " 

Yes, completely.  CO is ridiculously cheap, badly-made TV, though, and they won't even ask Jinger about wearing trousers now, let alone more personal things like having kids.  And I strongly believe JB & M get to push the agenda, even if they're not shown. 

(It's ridiculous, because showing them as a family who are more accepting, with different adult-children making different decisions about how to live their faith, would be a lot more effective as a ministry - but that would also mean JB&M publicly saying there are other ways apart from theirs)

[MonkeyMom]

On 10/3/2017 at 9:56 AM, Knight of Ni said:

I am currently reading the Wheel of Time series and really enjoying it. Does anyone have any suggestions for other books I may enjoy? Loving this book thread drift. 

Longtime lurker, first time posting (Hi, everyone!), because... books.  I agree with @Furbabiesonly- go with about anything by Brandon Sanderson.  Warbreaker is a great stand-alone; I also highly recommend The Emperor's Soul, which is a great little novella that you can probably read in an afternoon.  Elantris and the Mistborn series are among his better known works; I've loved them all.  I just got my Monkey (11 years old, loves books just like his mom) into some of Sanderson's young adult stuff- The Rithmatist, in particular, is wonderful.  Also try Patrick Rothfuss, but be warned that the wait for book #3 in his Kingkiller Chronicle trilogy is rivaling the anticipation for The Winds of Winter from GRRM.  The Memoirs of Lady Trent, by Marie Brennan (the first book of the five book series is A Natural History of Dragons) were so good- I didn't want them to end.

We should send Jinger a "care package" with all of them!

[Italiangirl]

Did any of you read "the handmaids tale" of.margaret atwood?  It has something really interesting especially if we think about mista of thw fundie that we follow  here. 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

On 9/17/2017 at 3:42 PM, SassyPants said:

Jill drew the short straw, or so it seems for now.



Jill is with her match as well...she thought she'd enjoy the life of a tinker missionary, and billed herself as such. This what happens when you drink so much of the KA that it drowns your self awareness. Actually, Derick really drew the short straw!

I'm going to go out on a limb here. I was in Peace Corps. I was 30. The new grads or college drop-outs often went very "Jill." Imagining and experiencing are very different things. Jill was brought up in a culture where very idealized missionary biographies are among the few suitable reading materials girls get. Just like the kids I was with who thought they'd be out in a village eradicating malaria or starting a sustainable fish farm, when they got put into an office job or a the local equivalent of rich suburban high school as a placement they didn't know what to do. They were also hit with culture shock, were as butt ignorant of other cultures as Jill (in spite of 8 weeks of training) and many other, regardless of placement, just couldn't cope and went home.  I think Jill may really have seen something traumatic. I think her husband wasn't her "protector" the way she was taught to believe--I think he was probably scared shitless as well. I saw a lot of scary stuff on my Peace Corps job and in the communities around it and I was older, well educated in the culture and still it got to me.  Now picture Jill who has never been alone or away from home much. Brand new husband. New country--very poor country. Missionary work is 99% rejection like sales. It's very hard. I'm giving her a pass. I personally think they both had some serious trauma or breakdown and must try to recover on camera and keeping to the script that they have a heart for missionary service. The Peace Corps kids went home and said "I saw some seriously crazy shit and got out of there." They can't do that.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled snarking....

[Lurky]

@IReallyAmHopewell I agree with your points, and I give her a pass too, especially as for someone of her culture, it would be ridiculously hard to say "I'm not cut out to be a Missionary", and even if she could, the answer would be "pray more".  But like I've said before, I absolutely blame JB and Michelle, who really did a number on her by not letting her do even a 2 month placement with a sister to see if she could hack it, but instead talk up their missioncations as exactly what it's like.

In an alternative universe, Jill could have gone on a similar missionary placement to SCA and realised that it didn't suit her, so tried a different country/type of work and come home, trained as a proper midwife or nurse, and done medical missionary work in a USA city instead, and found a husband who was into that too.

(Was going to say I didn't agree about seeing something traumatic, but then I remembered how sheltered she is, so even though she was living in a gated compound with guards, "traumatic" will be relative for her.)

[VelociRapture]

@Lurky At least one person they were friendly with was murdered. I believe a second was as well. I don’t think they witnessed it or anything, but simply knowing that someone you’re friendly with was violently killed could have been pretty traumatic for them.

[Lurky]

10 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

At least one person they were friendly with was murdered. I believe a second was as well. I don’t think they witnessed it or anything, but simply knowing that someone you’re friendly with was violently killed could have been pretty traumatic for them.

I thought it was a relative of someone they were friendly with?  And TBH "friendly" can mean anything - it wasn't someone they'd talked about before they were killed, was it?  I don't want to sound dismissive, but one can read the things they wrote about that incident in a couple of ways, including it being someone they'd never actually met ETA right through it to be someone they considered a friend.   Of course it would be super-sad to hear a friend's relative was killed, but difficult and sad, rather than a direct trauma, if they'd only met them once or twice - though on the other side of the scales, it feels like the Duggar daughters don't have great resilience skills in general, especially as they've pretty much never spent any time alone before marriage.

ETA and I guess the other thing is, if they're specifically praying for people, and terrible things happen to them, that must be hard for someone from their cult.

But regardless, that happened in their final furlough, and Jill seems to have struggled right from the start.  I think it was a massive shock to her system, even in their gated & guarded, relatively luxurious home, and I feel for her, even if I don't like especially like what I see of her. 

[SassyPants]

@IReallyAmHopewell- why couldn't they get out? They are adults. He is educated and very likely still employable. Explain why those 2 adults can't act like adults and get themselves out of a scary situation? He was not Duggarized or infantilized his entire life. In his religion he is the leader. Why can't he lead?????