Jinjer 31: Books, Books, and More Books

[NakedKnees]

I can see that sort of thing as being traumatic for the Dillards, or at least for Jill. Derrick clearly deals with trauma from his father's death. The Duggars don't seem to have dealt with a lot of tough stuff even in their extended circle of acquaintances... I think of the Willis family's high-profile loss, and the Kellers' prison industry. Again, for all of their many faults, I can see more of a familiarity with the toughest stuff in life developing in those families.

What do the Duggars have? A gay Ruark, a teen parent Ruark? Jim Bob's father, whatever was so bad about him? I'm sorry, but I'm the sensitive type and if I were in Jill's shoes, even a friend's in-law's friend's murder would really affect me. Especially if those people are part of your support network, being so far from home and everything.

Plus, what is traumatic and how people deal is different for everyone.

Back to the Jinjer... I certainly don't want to sing praise of hipster fundie Jeremy from the rooftop. I love the commentary on how great it would be if his [perhaps pseudo-]intellectualism was applied to actually thinking critically between the different flavors of Christianity, rather than just obsessively being about his own. 

Also, agreed that the coffee scene wasn't super alarming to me. Yes, he acted like a dumbass, but it seemed like an honest interaction where he got what was coming to him, and no one got hurt.

Obligatory: he's a homophobe and misogynist attempting to divert innocent people away from their religious inheritance into his own. 

[Greendoor]

8 hours ago, Italiangirl said:

Did any of you read "the handmaids tale" of.margaret atwood?  It has something really interesting especially if we think about mista of thw fundie that we follow  here. 

Yes, I have read it.  I was young and it is a book I will never reread.  The whole idea that could even happen I find frightening.  And I have no doubt that it could.

 

[jacduggar]

1 hour ago, NakedKnees said:

I can see that sort of thing as being traumatic for the Dillards, or at least for Jill. Derrick clearly deals with trauma from his father's death. The Duggars don't seem to have dealt with a lot of tough stuff even in their extended circle of acquaintances... I think of the Willis family's high-profile loss, and the Kellers' prison industry. Again, for all of their many faults, I can see more of a familiarity with the toughest stuff in life developing in those families.

What do the Duggars have? A gay Ruark, a teen parent Ruark? Jim Bob's father, whatever was so bad about him? I'm sorry, but I'm the sensitive type and if I were in Jill's shoes, even a friend's in-law's friend's murder would really affect me. Especially if those people are part of your support network, being so far from home and everything.

Plus, what is traumatic and how people deal is different for everyone.

Back to the Jinjer... I certainly don't want to sing praise of hipster fundie Jeremy from the rooftop. I love the commentary on how great it would be if his [perhaps pseudo-]intellectualism was applied to actually thinking critically between the different flavors of Christianity, rather than just obsessively being about his own. 

Also, agreed that the coffee scene wasn't super alarming to me. Yes, he acted like a dumbass, but it seemed like an honest interaction where he got what was coming to him, and no one got hurt.

Obligatory: he's a homophobe and misogynist attempting to divert innocent people away from their religious inheritance into his own. 

I wonder if Jill is grieving/traumatized over the murders in CA and doesn’t know what to do with it. She’s spent her entire life being encouraged to “trust God’s will” with things and hasn’t really had to face something tragic and shocking to that degree before.* Between that, her husband slowly flying off the rails, and two possibly traumatic labor and deliveries, I just wonder if she’s okay or not. I wonder if PPD is something she’s familiar with. I know we shit on her midwife “training” but I think they’d at least give her a basic understanding of it.**

 

*tragic and shocking meaning unexpected murders of people she knows. Of course losing a loved one or something else can be tragic and shocking. 

**not to armchair diagnose. Just saying that she’s been through quite a bit this year. When you go from being so sheltered that you can’t even go to the store alone to being married, having two traumatic labors and c-sections, then realize perhaps your husband is changing, then people in the village you lived in get murdered, that’s a ton of stuff to handle. 

 

This is why the Duggars do a disservice to their kids by not giving them life experiences. Life can be hard at times, they should have learned how to handle things while having their parents to help guide and protect them, not suffocate them and then throw them to the brutal world. 

[VelociRapture]

@LurkyIf I remember right, the person I’m thinking of was actually friendly with them. He had visited their home down there and I think he was working with Derick or SOS in some capacity. 

Here we go:

http://dillardfamily.com/dillard family blog?ID=6cafe448-7651-4a2d-9206-3902686103da

This man (German Daniel Serrano Orellano) apparently had recently lost his grandmother, had a 20 year old cousin who was also murdered, and his daughter had a stroke around that time as well. Jill wrote that they had had German and his family over a few times in the weeks before his death. He had spoken with them about the dangers of the area, but they do seem to have been genuinely shocked that he was murdered. 

https://www.google.com/amp/radaronline.com/celebrity-news/duggar-murder-scandal-brother-jill-derick-dillard-friend-family-struggle/amp/

(Radaronline over exaggerated when they wrote the Dillard’s fled the country - it was a planned trip back so they could attend Joy’s wedding and prepare for Samuel’s birth. It was a coincidence that the murder occurred around the same time.)

1 hour ago, NakedKnees said:

I can see that sort of thing as being traumatic for the Dillards, or at least for Jill. Derrick clearly deals with trauma from his father's death. The Duggars don't seem to have dealt with a lot of tough stuff even in their extended circle of acquaintances... 

(SNIPPITY SNIP SNIP)

What do the Duggars have? A gay Ruark, a teen parent Ruark? Jim Bob's father, whatever was so bad about him? I'm sorry, but I'm the sensitive type and if I were in Jill's shoes, even a friend's in-law's friend's murder would really affect me. Especially if those people are part of your support network, being so far from home and everything.

Uhhh.... Jill was sexually assaulted by her brother, had the assault covered up by her parents for a decade, was publicly outed without her consent, and likely never received counseling for any of that or the fact that she was manipulated into raising her younger siblings for her lazy parents. I’d absolutely classify that as dealing with some tough stuff.

[marmalade]

On 10/1/2017 at 5:33 AM, Haley said:

Long time lurker, but first time poster! But did you guys see Jeremy's latest tweets?? He tweeted about "Amusing Ourselves to Death" which is a (completely secular) comparison of 1984 vs Brave New World. Although I've read the underlying books, I haven't read Amusing Ourselves to Death, though the Wikipedia article on it seems quite interesting. In any case, doesn't it imply to you that he's read both Huxley and Orwell and perhaps even supports/enjoys reading outside of theology books that he always posts about?

I've never read it, but one of the professors at my college assigns it to his freshmen every semester. It's a bit dated now, but it's an interesting analysis about the effects of different forms of media. 

[JordynDarby5]

39 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Uhhh.... Jill was sexually assaulted by her brother, had the assault covered up by her parents for a decade, was publicly outed without her consent, and likely never received counseling for any of that or the fact that she was manipulated into raising her younger siblings for her lazy parents. I’d absolutely classify that as dealing with some tough stuff.

I'd be curious what kind of help Jill would be to people in SA who have gone through trauma. She wasn't given counseling for what happened to her. It was covered up, no one talked about it and pretend it never happened. She's been programmed that it was no big deal, it happens all the time and her parents handled it correctly. Most people realize that's not what you do. But not Jill. What does she say to someone who've gone through a trauma? Does she parrot what her parents told her when talking to people who've gone through trauma? Does she just give them a tract? Does she listen? Did she give them banana bread and think their problem was over? How much help would Jill be when she's been trained to think her own assault was no big deal? Did she meet others in SA who were assaulted? If so did that effect her at all? How does she feel when she sees other assault victims being treated differently then she was? Does she try to give them the same "help" her parents gave her? Would any of the other missionaries object to her doing that? 

[patsymae]

2 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

I'd be curious what kind of help Jill would be to people in SA who have gone through trauma. She wasn't given counseling for what happened to her. It was covered up, no one talked about it and pretend it never happened. She's been programmed that it was no big deal, it happens all the time and her parents handled it correctly. Most people realize that's not what you do. But not Jill. What does she say to someone who've gone through a trauma? Does she parrot what her parents told her when talking to people who've gone through trauma? Does she just give them a tract? Does she listen? Did she give them banana bread and think their problem was over? How much help would Jill be when she's been trained to think her own assault was no big deal? Did she meet others in SA who were assaulted? If so did that effect her at all? How does she feel when she sees other assault victims being treated differently then she was? Does she try to give them the same "help" her parents gave her? Would any of the other missionaries object to her doing that? 

I don't think in a billion years Jill would have been thinking about helping women in Central America who have been though assaults. I don't think she gave a thought to anything those women, or any women, or any people, may have gone through. Her "ministry" had nothing to do with the reality of the people she was supposedly living among. Her idea of "ministry" was to show up and give out pamphlets and maybe have "Bible studies" in her own language. Just look back at the "women's ministry day" or whatever the fuck they called it where Jill and two of her sisters had local women come to drink something from paper cups while the Duggar sisters sang in English. 

[MarblesMom]

28 minutes ago, patsymae said:

Her "ministry" had nothing to do with the reality of the people she was supposedly living among.

I thought her Sintral America gig was all about the falling shower rack ministry and how to avoid it /s

[Italiangirl]

9 hours ago, marmalade said:

I've never read it, but one of the professors at my college assigns it to his freshmen every semester. It's a bit dated now, but it's an interesting analysis about the effects of different forms of media. 

Oh i agree is scaring  to think  about it, and is even more scaring thinking that in some ways is already happening in fundie land don't you think?

But this is one of the reason why Fj is so important, or at least is it to mee 'cause i think is kinda dangerous underestimate way they can do 

[Greendoor]

With reference to the J's who were assaulted by Josh - correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember reading somewhere that

"Would you rather not be sexually assaulted or not grow spiritually"  ie: it was a "blessing" in disguise to be assaulted. 

Gothard is a sick puppy and so are his followers.    

[Lurky]

1 hour ago, Greendoor said:

"Would you rather not be sexually assaulted or not grow spiritually"  ie: it was a "blessing" in disguise to be assaulted. 

It's "If you had to choose... no physical abuse or mighty in the spirit - which would you choose?" with a strong lean towards the only choice being the latter.

Trigger warning, of course, as it's vile all over, esp for victim blaming

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/04/how-counseling-sexual-abuse-blames-and-shames-survivors/

[SassyPants]

Every time I try to think about the hows-whys-what ifs- of the Duggars situation, I always end up with here: those 2nd generation Duggars did not grow up in our world. They experienced few, if any, of the growing opportunities that most of us experienced as we matured. Therefore, as adults, their goals and aspirations are going to be very different than most of ours. You can't take a very cloistered 25 YO girl who was raised in a literal dog kennel, who was wiping her sibs' butts, feeding them peas from a metal can, with a tablespoon, who had very little education, was never allowed to be alone or form her own opinion on anything, or pursue her own interests, and expect that she is going to leave that sheltered environment and instantly become independent or an A-#1 problem solver or critical thinker, all on her own. Never going to happen. 

The frustrating part about this is, these sheltered people don't know that they are ill-prepared for life in our world and they have a platform on which they get to lecture and attempt to influence the rest of us- that is literal BS. 

[NakedKnees]

20 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

*Snipped*

Uhhh.... Jill was sexually assaulted by her brother, had the assault covered up by her parents for a decade, was publicly outed without her consent, and likely never received counseling for any of that or the fact that she was manipulated into raising her younger siblings for her lazy parents. I’d absolutely classify that as dealing with some tough stuff.

You're absolutely right. I'm a bit ashamed that didn't occur to me. I'm just a little overly focused on the "acquaintance was murdered" stuff because I'm inclined to think that's heavy to go through, and am not a fan of downplaying it. Totally didn't mean to downplay molestation in the process.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I realized what my profile picture ought to be.

[seraaa]

 

[Furbabiesonly]

Potentially unpopular opinion but I do think that that Jinger hit the fundie jackpot. (Coffee idiocy withstanding) 

She met a guy through her “ best friend” and sister Jessa. She clearly saw he was fashionable and clearly decided that at least that, maybe more, made him a match made in heaven (literally in their view) for sister Jinger. And looking through Jessa’s perspective, I wouldn’t be surprised if she expected Jeremy to move to Arkansas. Anna did, Derick did, Ben did. 

But Jeremy kept on courting Jinger, while still not agreeing to become part of the Borg. And then they’re engaged and the marriage is hurtling forward. 

There’s no denying that Jeremy, in his sermons, harbors hateful beliefs. I’m sure Jinger does too. But they’ve also explored in ways her siblings certainly haven’t. 

I have to wonder if this site played any part in it all.

imagine, you’re a handsome young conservative Christian. You meet a pair of semi famous reality stars. You google the family, and “freejinger” is the first thing to pop up. Jinger is single...

[SapphireSlytherin]

34 minutes ago, Furbabiesonly said:

Jinger hit the fundie jackpot.

I agree. I know he spews hateful bullshit from a pulpit, but I think he's miles better than Bin or Dwreck. 

Jinger has always been my pet fundie. I think she's pretty and fun and fairly intelligent (SOTDRT notwithstanding). She's a bit younger than my daughter, but I truly think Jinger's sense of adventure and willingness to try new things and her love of fashion would have (in another life) allowed her to be my daughter's BFF. If she'd grown up being BFFs with my daughter, she'd have been exposed to 80s rock-n-roll, swimming in the backyard pool in a regular swimsuit (and maybe even a bikini!), cruising the strip with the other teens in our city, going to the mall with a gaggle of girlfriends to shop ---and meet boys, going to movies that had the word "fuck" in the dialog...  

And more importantly - going to EVERY Harry Potter movie and learning that just because the words wizard and witch and magic and curses are used throughout the story, it doesn't mean the stories are evil or "of the devil" - they are just stories of good vs. bad, with good prevailing, in a nutshell.

But she'll never know that, or the adventures of "living inside her head" by reading books (not just HP, either) that transport the reader into an awesome imaginary world.   We (as a family) read all of the HP books out loud, two or three chapters a night, in our living room. It was a magical (pardon the term) time in our somewhat tumultuous teenager-in-the-house years. 

As much as I'd love it if these people would one day wake up and realize they're living in a cult and have been brainwashed, I know it's not going to happen. I'm hopeful that Jinger and Jeremy do, eventually, come to realize that there's more to life than preaching and converting heathens and Catholics to their "brand" of religion. I'd be among the first to read their tell-all co-authored book (which I hope they're writing RIGHT NOW) that brings down the Duggar Empire of Intolerance and Hate.

 

[Fjrocks]

   WHOA!!

      Labeling Jinger as "GIRL ON FIRE?!?" Obviously he is referring to the photographic effect but.. is it a coincidence he came up with that tag in his pretty little head? 

   Or was he alluding to the Alicia Keyes "Girl on Fire" female power anthem?

   Or a very worldly series of books, Hunger Games about a strong female heroine? 

   If either is the case....I admit it, I am speechless.  

PS Can the next thread be "JinJer: Girl on Fire?"  I would love to spin it into something empowering whether he meant it or not. 

[singsingsing]

Well I mean he's already empowered her to hand out tracts at a university while wearing knee-length shorts. Next time maybe he'll empower her to protest abortion while wearing a shirt that shows her collarbone! Soon she'll be running his church's 'pray-away-the-gay' program in skinny jeans and a tasteful sleeveless blouse.

[socalrules]

I think Jeremy is the one who hit the jackpot. He got a pretty, uneducated girl who was raised to be a total follower of her husband. She won’t have ambition, won’t challenge his authority and will always look up at him as the most perfect man in the world. He can mold her into what he wants her to be and she will obey. She is also on a reality tv show that pays for trips and puts extra money in his pocket while he grows his ministry. Finally, he if slightly loosens the leash her parents put her on by allowing her to wear pants or read a book of his choosing, people will see him as having saved her from a life of serving her parents. Who really got the better deal here? 

[calimojo]

Was he intentionally referencing The Hunger Games with that post?  Is it possible that Jinger would know the Hunger Games?
 

[rainbowbabycakes]

On 9/19/2017 at 8:33 PM, Shadoewolf said:

Trying to find a series our 9 year old son will like.

Is he into Minecraft? My son loves The Elementia Chronicles , which is a fanfiction trilogy. He especially loves that the author was only 16 when he wrote the first one! They're pretty thick though, like 500+ pages, so if he's not a big reader, they might be too much for him.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

13 hours ago, Furbabiesonly said:

imagine, you’re a handsome young conservative Christian. You meet a pair of semi famous reality stars. You google the family, and “freejinger” is the first thing to pop up.

I just tried googling "Duggar family". I checked 5 pages of results; no Free Jinger. When I tried "Jinger Duggar", we were on page 2. So, my take is, maybe yes, maybe no.

[Hashtag Blessed]

On 10/5/2017 at 10:07 PM, JordynDarby5 said:

What does she say to someone who've gone through a trauma?

I doubt very much that Jill ever had enough Spanish for a local woman to have communicated that to her in the first place. However, I'm sure they get fan letters from American women who have been assaulted. I doubt those poor women get anything but biblical platitudes, if they get anything at all. 

On 10/6/2017 at 12:12 AM, patsymae said:

Her "ministry" had nothing to do with the reality of the people she was supposedly living among.

That is true in the US as well as Scary Danger America. Like @SassyPants said, they are so sheltered as to be completely ignorant of what most of us deal with on a daily basis. They have no idea what we believe or why, how we live our lives, what we find fulfillment in, what brings us pain or joy. They have no idea because they've never lived like us and they've never cracked a non-Gothard-approved book. So their "ministry" will always be completely out of touch with the reality of the lives of whoever they are trying to reach, no matter what continent they're on. 

I hope for the best for Jinger, but Jeremy is not her savior. Believing in him is setting yourself up for disappointment. Look how many people thought the same of Dwreck! Things like referencing the Hunger Games give me hope that she now has the space to explore other people's lives and perspectives through literature at least, and one day she'll expand her horizons enough to get out. Maybe they will learn and grow away from it all together, but I'm not holding my breath. Jeremy 100% got the better deal. He's on top with someone who's purpose in life is to cater to his every whim and bolster his ego, what incentive is there for him to undo that? More importantly, what evidence have we seen that that isn't exactly what he wants? 

[CrazyMumma]

Hmmm you know that just because someone grew up in a certain environment doesn't mean they will be that? I was raised in a patriarchal environment and homeschooled.. Hubby and I are very much equals. Appearances can be deceiving.