Jinjer 31: Books, Books, and More Books

[feministxtian]

I'm thinking of starting the Dragonrider's series again...problem is, I don't like any of the later books where Todd McCaffery started co-authoring. I like the main ones with Lessa and F'lar. Beyond that...not crazy about the books outside that timeline. 

Maybe once things settle down...the noisy neighbors are at it again. 

[Haley]

Long time lurker, but first time poster! But did you guys see Jeremy's latest tweets?? He tweeted about "Amusing Ourselves to Death" which is a (completely secular) comparison of 1984 vs Brave New World. Although I've read the underlying books, I haven't read Amusing Ourselves to Death, though the Wikipedia article on it seems quite interesting. In any case, doesn't it imply to you that he's read both Huxley and Orwell and perhaps even supports/enjoys reading outside of theology books that he always posts about?

[purplepeony]

Jeremy has also just posted a critique of Hugh Hefner from the New York Times so does read a wider range of things than just theology books. Would love to hear the convo where Jeremy explain the playboy mansion to Jinger!

[Haley]

3 minutes ago, purplepeony said:

Jeremy has also just posted a critique of Hugh Hefner from the New York Times so does read a wider range of things than just theology books. Would love to hear the convo where Jeremy explain the playboy mansion to Jinger!

Seriously! But yeah, I do think he reads a wide range of things, at least in comparison to every other Duggar or Duggar-in-law. I would have to think that would trickle into Jinger's world too. I can't really imagine anyone else in this clan (maybe Ben?) posting these types of things. Like can anyone imagine Joe Duggar posting a piece about Hefner in the NYT (even if it is by the conservative commentator) talking about quaaludes as “thigh openers”? I cannot.

[SilverBeach]

On 09/17/2017 at 2:23 PM, 2manyKidzzz said:

I really think Jinger hit the big time. She has her hot husband she is crazy about, she lives 10 hours by car from the FamilyGaggle, she has HER OWN HOUSE, which I think is incredible. They travel and she has new clothes, purchased for her, perhaps new, which fit her well. Her life made an about face. 

She must be over the moon. 

Yep, all without struggling to get an education or career training, or struggling to save for a down payment, or struggling at all. Maybe I'm on the wrong side of this deal, haha.

[2manyKidzzz]

@SilverBeach Yes, all she had to do was pray!! Not how it worked for me that is for sure. Ha ha It is hard for me to imagine that she would put a bzillion blessings in the mix now. Who knows. 

[xlurker]

On 9/29/2017 at 11:37 AM, FleeJanaFree said:

I've only read three off this particular list,

I'm fairly well read, and on most lists have a solid 75-80%....I'm going to blame the list, because on this one I've only 13 under my belt......

[VelociRapture]

To be fair to Jinger, she didn't exactly have a fairytale childhood. None of the Duggar offspring did. Their childhoods were sold to the public without their consent, the eldest daughters were enlisted to raise their siblings for their lazy parents, and four of them were sexually assaulted by their eldest brother (which likely had some impact on the non-victim children alive at the time as well.) 

Yeah, they have some perks from being on a reality show. They don't seem to struggle much to afford nice things or go on fun trips or anything. But personally, I'm not jealous of them at all. I really wouldn't trade my childhood or non-celebrity status for anything they have. 

[Carm_88]

On 9/28/2017 at 3:35 PM, justoneoftwo said:

For those who only liked a few characters I'm curious which ones and why.  Maybe this is too off topic but I'm always interested in people's opinions of literature and enough people know about it it might be an interesting topic.

I liked the series, I've read it a few times. That being said the only character I really like is Jon Snow and the last book made me go "Oh fuck that!" Most of the characters have huge character flaws that you are supposed to look past and see their good points. Yes, the vast majority of them are children and they are therefore ever changing but still...! 

The thing about George RR Martin is that if the character you like survives, you may want to kill them! 

[Pretzel]

@VelociRapture Veloci, you beat me to it. I was about to say that their lives may seem rosy now, but lets not forget they had to live with Joshley Madison under one roof for almost two decades. That alone would justify living life to the fullest once they marry and move out.  

[singsingsing]

21 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I liked the series, I've read it a few times. That being said the only character I really like is Jon Snow and the last book made me go "Oh fuck that!" Most of the characters have huge character flaws that you are supposed to look past and see their good points. Yes, the vast majority of them are children and they are therefore ever changing but still...! 

The thing about George RR Martin is that if the character you like survives, you may want to kill them! 

I feel like I would've liked Jon Snow if I'd read it as a 15-year-old. Or even a 20-year-old. But as a 29-year-old I just don't like any of them.  Oh, I have a question about Jon Snow, though, but I'm going to put it behind a spoiler warning...

Spoiler

I'm only like 14 chapters into the first book. Isn't Jon Snow supposed to be Ned Stark's sister's kid? Like she got raped and had this kid and made her brother promise to raise it as his own and never tell anyone where he really came from? Because that really seems to be what the author's trying to hint at. But I heard in the TV show he turns out to be someone else completely. I know the TV show has diverged from the books, but what about in the books? If he's not the sister's kid, I'm annoyed, because I feel like that must have been the author's original intent. And obviously I'm psychic so I know this. 

Maybe I should just, you know... keep reading the damn book.

 

[Carm_88]

@singsingsing

Spoiler

You can keep reading but you're right.  Jon Snow is the son of Ned's sister and Rhaegar Targaryen but it wasn't rape. I don't think. That was mainly what Robert Barathon and Ned Stark wanted to believe.  

Due to Jon being a Targaryan with a strong claim to the throne, Ned claims him as his own or else it would be "off with Jon's head!" 

Less with the brooding, more with the doing.  That's my new description on Jon Snow. 

[VelociRapture]

I don't necessarily love Sansa, but I do find the hate lobbed at her to be really over the top at times. She was 11 when the books start and isn't even considered an adult in her culture at that point, yet fans constantly hold her accountable as if she were an adult. 

Then again, I'm also really bothered by the Cult of Arya, who seem to believe she can do no wrong and how she's constantly placed on a pedestal while people trash her sister. I think people are overlooking the fact that Sansa has survived situations that Arya wouldn't have and that Sansa has many strengths because of her feminity that Arya does not possess. Both are great characters and both have massive flaws as well - there's no need to compare them all the time. 

I am one of those fans who has found something to like and dislike about pretty much all the characters though. Except Ramsay Bolton. He's just sadistic.

And to continue what @Carm_88 was telling @singsingsing about Jon Snow (SPOILERS):

Spoiler

She's correct. On the show it was confirmed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and everything was consensual. Ned appears to have known this was the truth, but had to lie in order to keep his promise to Lyanna that he would protect her son. None of that has been confirmed in the books yet, but it's been heavily implied through Ned's actions, his reputation as a zealously honorable man, his words to Robert in the crypt about how Robert never really knew Lyanna, and how she was very like Arya in personality (headstrong, stubborn, fiery, goes for what she wants, etc.)

One additional piece of confirmation - Martin once stated that he wouldn't have agreed to let Benioff and Weiss adapt the story for HBO if they had incorrectly answered one question incorrectly. That question was, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" Obviously, they got the answer right and I'm about as positive as a Michelle Duggar pregnancy test that they used that correct answer for the show.   

 

[Maggie Mae]

On Jon Snow

Spoiler

The show seems to have combined the Aegon storyline with Dany or Jon as well. Obviously it's too soon to tell as we don't have the books. 

Sansa

Spoiler

I think the writing on the show is doing no favors to Sansa. 

In the first book she's pretty terrible, and disloyal to her family. She's the daughter of a Tully whose words are family, duty,  honor, and she's a Stark who also value loyalty and honor. She's not very honorable and that is reflected in the death of her direwolf and losing her connection to the pack and the magical world. 

However, she gets better. 

But her storyline on the show doesn't give her the agency that she gains in the vale.  And it makes her really boring. The last season was really quite horrible with dumb decisions and trying to fake out viewers with plot twists. I like the actress and it's not her fault that they keep writing Sansa inconsistently. 

Arya

Spoiler

I really dislike the show only people who just think she's so awesome for killing hundreds of people. 

The books have her as an way to show the horrors of war on the smallfolk.  This gets dropped in the show. And the show drops her warging story line, which isn't a big deal, but I like the fantasy aspects. 

I was really excited to see the house of black and white, and it became obvious that the show folk didn't have secret information and just tried to make it action oriented. 

 

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

 

I am one of those fans who has found something to like and dislike about pretty much all the characters though. Except Ramsay Bolton. He's just sadistic.

 

 

What about Euron? He's interesting, but not at all redeemable. 

[Bad Wolf]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

To be fair to Jinger, she didn't exactly have a fairytale childhood. None of the Duggar offspring did. Their childhoods were sold to the public without their consent, the eldest daughters were enlisted to raise their siblings for their lazy parents, and four of them were sexually assaulted by their eldest brother (which likely had some impact on the non-victim children alive at the time as well.) 

Yeah, they have some perks from being on a reality show. They don't seem to struggle much to afford nice things or go on fun trips or anything. But personally, I'm not jealous of them at all. I really wouldn't trade my childhood or non-celebrity status for anything they have. 

And I think they often went hungry. Jill used to hide in the bathroom with food. Just think, if they'd gone to evil public school they could have had a free breakfast and lunch. Although JB prides himself in not taking welfare, so maybe not.

[Gillyweed]

@singsingsing

Spoiler

According to the TV show (so it could end up differing in the books), Ned's sister and Jon's father (I forget his actual name, but it's Dani's brother) actually get married before Jon is born. So, I don't think it was necessarily rape as they both seem to be into each other

Quote

@Bad Wolf And I think they often went hungry. Jill used to hide in the bathroom with food. Just think, if they'd gone to evil public school they could have had a free breakfast and lunch. Although JB prides himself in not taking welfare, so maybe not

If they did go to public school, there also could have been a chance that a teacher or another mandatory reporter learned something about their home life.  And they would have been exposed to an actual education. If only.

[Nikedagain?]

3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I don't necessarily love Sansa, but I do find the hate lobbed at her to be really over the top at times. She was 11 when the books start and isn't even considered an adult in her culture at that point, yet fans constantly hold her accountable as if she were an adult. 

Then again, I'm also really bothered by the Cult of Arya, who seem to believe she can do no wrong and how she's constantly placed on a pedestal while people trash her sister. I think people are overlooking the fact that Sansa has survived situations that Arya wouldn't have and that Sansa has many strengths because of her feminity that Arya does not possess. Both are great characters and both have massive flaws as well - there's no need to compare them all the time. 

I am one of those fans who has found something to like and dislike about pretty much all the characters though. Except Ramsay Bolton. He's just sadistic.

And to continue what @Carm_88 was telling @singsingsing about Jon Snow (SPOILERS):

  Reveal hidden contents

She's correct. On the show it was confirmed that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and everything was consensual. Ned appears to have known this was the truth, but had to lie in order to keep his promise to Lyanna that he would protect her son. None of that has been confirmed in the books yet, but it's been heavily implied through Ned's actions, his reputation as a zealously honorable man, his words to Robert in the crypt about how Robert never really knew Lyanna, and how she was very like Arya in personality (headstrong, stubborn, fiery, goes for what she wants, etc.)

One additional piece of confirmation - Martin once stated that he wouldn't have agreed to let Benioff and Weiss adapt the story for HBO if they had incorrectly answered one question incorrectly. That question was, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" Obviously, they got the answer right and I'm about as positive as a Michelle Duggar pregnancy test that they used that correct answer for the show.   

 

I completely agree with everything you've said! I can't find anything that I like about Joffrey though. 

[Jinder Roles]

See, I love the Song of Ice and Fire series. I enjoy some of the characters, but I don't read it for them. I more focus on how all of their stories connect together. GRRM did an excellent job creating a nuanced and complex word with its own history and set of rules. It's well written too.

My favourite characters are Tyrion, Varys, Margery, Bronn, Jorah, Bran, Sam and Littlefinger (that sick evil genius, he's my favourite). It's interesting to me how they work through their circumstances and how their circumstances shaped them.

I also appreciate Hot Pie, because if I lived in Westeros, I'd be baking cake, keeping warm and minding my own fucking business.

Spoiler

Sansa used to annoy the shit out of me, but she's finally learning how to play the game. Plus, she really didn't know what she was getting into.

Arya is currently annoying me because her solution is to chop down everyone who gets in her way. I dislike her for the same reasons l dislike Cersei.

I don't get why people like Jon Snow. Yes he's the protagonist but he's dumb as bricks and a Gryffindor in the most annoying sense. My god Jon, some tact and a smile wouldn't kill you! He should honestly be dead by now.

I'd Iove to learn more about the White Walkers (their motivations, their end goal, their patterns etc)

And I need to know more about Asshai and the Doom of Valyria 

 

[patsymae]

On 9/19/2017 at 1:19 PM, justoneoftwo said:

Try not to worry about your 7 YO.  I didn't read until I was 9, then started reading high school level books.  Just keep reading aloud to him so he gets the good stories and keeps up the love.  

One reason may be that it's just really hard to find books written for that age that boys are interested in (sexist maybe, but true IMO). It's better now than when my son was little, but once he hit about second grade I had a hard time finding books he was interested in--had to bug a lot of librarians and teachers. He pretty much shut down on reading until high school when he was assigned Eli Wiesel's "Night," read it all in one sitting, and then it was like "I can do this" and all was well.

Long way of saying if he doesn't have any learning disabilities or other barriers to reading he'll probably be fine when he hits on something that interests him.

[Greendoor]

I think you also have to shelve the idea that they are too young to read an adult book.  

I read Nathaniel's Nutmeg to my son when he was 2nd or 3rd Grade (long time ago now).  I did leave out a bit of the gross stuff, but man o man it was gripping.  

The reason I read it was because it was a real part or bed time for us.  He likes to read fact not fiction now unfortunately, I think you miss a lot when you give up story.       

 

[patsymae]

2 minutes ago, Greendoor said:

I think you also have to shelve the idea that they are too young to read an adult book.  

I read Nathaniel's Nutmeg to my son when he was 2nd or 3rd Grade (long time ago now).  I did leave out a bit of the gross stuff, but man o man it was gripping.  

The reason I read it was because it was a real part or bed time for us.  He likes to read fact not fiction now unfortunately, I think you miss a lot when you give up story.       

 

My son also wanted mostly nonfiction, which aside from some sports bios was largely unavailable. 

[patsymae]

As for Jinger, baby steps. the pic seems to be in a church or religious library, but at least she is discovering books. That could lead anywhere.

[SilverBeach]

6 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

To be fair to Jinger, she didn't exactly have a fairytale childhood. None of the Duggar offspring did. Their childhoods were sold to the public without their consent, the eldest daughters were enlisted to raise their siblings for their lazy parents, and four of them were sexually assaulted by their eldest brother (which likely had some impact on the non-victim children alive at the time as well.) 

Yeah, they have some perks from being on a reality show. They don't seem to struggle much to afford nice things or go on fun trips or anything. But personally, I'm not jealous of them at all. I really wouldn't trade my childhood or non-celebrity status for anything they have. 

Few of us have had fairytale upbringings, I would imagine. I was molested as a child, by my mother's husband, lot's of other dysfunction too in my family of origin.

My earlier comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, as there is absolutely no jealousy here.  Just an observation that many of the benefits of adulthood have accrued without the corresponding effort most others must put forth.

I came from modest means, had to earn scholarships and work my ass off to go to college, then work for years to have a down payment on a very modest home for me and my daughter (I've moved up a few times since then).

But my accomplishments have given me a sense of adult competence, dignity, and self-respect that you just don't get  when things are given to you.

So no, none of their reality-show "perks" are worth the sacrifice of an independent adulthood as required by the cult, particularly for it's female victims.

 

[VelociRapture]

@Maggie MaeHe's a fantastic sailor and has some pretty witty remarks. I have a soft spot for pirates. 

@Nikedagain?So much has happened that I lose track of characters. Completely overlooked Joffrey... (SPOILER)

Spoiler

My thoughts are torn on him. It's so easy to despise him and it's so fun to as well. I definitely cheered when he choked to death the way he did.

At the same time, he wasn't entirely to blame for how he turned out. He was the product of incest, was over indulged by his mother, abused at times by the man he thought was his father, and given far too much power at too young an age. He was a fantastically evil little asshole who deserved what he got - but he was also a scared little boy in way over his head too. And with Margarey's influence, you see glimpses of a better person who would like to be beloved of his people rather than feared. At least that's how I always saw him.

Ramsay, on the other hand, is what Joffrey could have been had he grown to full adulthood - an evil and sadistic sociopath who only finds enjoyment in hurting people. He has motivating factors, like being a bastard and feeling the need to prove himself, but he truly enjoys hurting other people. I don't think anyone or anything could inspire him to be a better man.

@Jinder RolesI love Littlefinger too. He literally has his hands in everything happening and you never know what he's going to do. I love how unpredictable he is.

I also love Margery, Lady Olenna, Ygritte, Varys, Tyrion, Ned, and Lord Commander Mormont. I also have soft spots for the "villains"* as well - Cersei, Jamie, Tywin specifically. Cersei because of her fierce love for her kids and I get her motivation to protect them even if I don't agree with her choices. Jamie because he has one of the most interesting character arcs and development of any character in the books. And Tywin because I can't help but admire the fact that he is a brilliant and extremely effective leader.

I also really enjoy Sansa and Arya's characters because they're a nice balance. They show that very feminine women and women who shun traditional feminity can both be very powerful and strong characters in their own ways.

*I put villains in parenthesis because there are very few characters wholly good or evil in the books. Who you view as a villain also very much depends on the perspective you're getting and the books heavily feature the Starks who are at odds with the Lannisters, so it makes perfect sense the Lannisters would be viewed as villains. 

[Leftitinmysnood]

Damn, that's a depressing list of books. (The modern Library Top 100 of the 20th century.) I've read 14, of which, Death Comes for the Archbishop and The Bridge at San Luis Rey were my favorites. No Harper Lee? No Handmaid's Tale? I never agree with the "best of" lists.