Jinjer 31: Books, Books, and More Books

[louisa05]

22 minutes ago, CrazyMumma said:

Hmmm you know that just because someone grew up in a certain environment doesn't mean they will be that? I was raised in a patriarchal environment and homeschooled.. Hubby and I are very much equals. Appearances can be deceiving.

I know several people who have walked away from fundamentalism, too. A few who were homeschooled and the whole fifty yards. 

I've said this here before, but apparently no one believes me, the kids at Christian school who were the loudest and proudest and most holier-than-thou are the ones that are not even remotely religious as adults. I can think of at least ten former students off the top of my head who fit that profile. People can and do leave these cultic world views as adults. 

[livinginthelight]

4 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

I've said this here before, but apparently no one believes me, the kids at Christian school who were the loudest and proudest and most holier-than-thou are the ones that are not even remotely religious as adults. I can think of at least ten former students off the top of my head who fit that profile. People can and do leave these cultic world views as adults. 

I've seen it too.

I am reminded of this limerick:

 

There once was a monk from Siberia 

Whose existence grew drearier and drearier.

Till he burst from his cell

with a hell of a yell

and eloped with the Mother Superior!                                                     

[llg1234]

JinJer at Jeremy's church (I think), still keeping up with their hip fundie vibe.

[elliha]

10 hours ago, llg1234 said:

JinJer at Jeremy's church (I think), still keeping up with their hip fundie vibe.

I LOVE that dress. It is a tiny bit too feminine for my own taste, at least in that light color but in a darker color... wow! I would also like it just a tiny bit longer if I were to wear it but on Jinger that length looks wonderful. I would not look as great in it as Jinger though, two kids and bags and bags of candy have firmly reshaped my body into a more potato-like shape... 

[Captain Obvious]

42 minutes ago, elliha said:

I LOVE that dress. It is a tiny bit too feminine for my own taste, at least in that light color but in a darker color... wow! I would also like it just a tiny bit longer if I were to wear it but on Jinger that length looks wonderful. I would not look as great in it as Jinger though, two kids and bags and bags of candy have firmly reshaped my body into a more potato-like shape... 

There you go:

http://daintyjewells.com/a-night-in-paris-more-colors/

http://daintyjewells.com/a-night-in-paris-in-royal-blue/

http://daintyjewells.com/a-night-in-paris-in-kelly-green/

http://daintyjewells.com/a-night-in-paris-in-chocolate/

http://daintyjewells.com/night-in-paris-in-cranberry/

They also make this one, which is similar:

http://daintyjewells.com/charming-in-lace-dress-more-colors/

[PainfullyAware]

It's an interesting question about how powerful the effects of being in a fundamentalist organization are to prevent someone's ability to break away or think differently. Clearly some people are able to leave while others appear totally brainwashed. Jinger has shown some flexibility in her thinking but at the same time steady devotion to most fundamentalist Christian principles. I think I'm in the camp that while the Duggars have a reality TV show the spotlight helps to ensure that there is enough pressure for them to 'stay pure'. Once the camera is turned off we may see a few break from gothardism. But as long as Jinger is under Jeremy's influence I doubt she is ever going to leave Christian fundamentalism behind.

[VelociRapture]

12 hours ago, louisa05 said:

I know several people who have walked away from fundamentalism, too. A few who were homeschooled and the whole fifty yards. 

I've said this here before, but apparently no one believes me, the kids at Christian school who were the loudest and proudest and most holier-than-thou are the ones that are not even remotely religious as adults. I can think of at least ten former students off the top of my head who fit that profile. People can and do leave these cultic world views as adults. 

Uh. I believe you. Does that mean I’m No One, like Arya Stark? 

That said, I think it can take a lot of time and careful thought and learning to reach a point where someone feels ready to break away. I personally don’t think any of the Duggars or Bateses are all that close to doing so, at least publicly, right now. I think things are going relatively well for them, especially the Bateses, and that may prevent them from questioning things too much - though I fully admit I could be wrong and that some of them, like the Keilens, are obviously struggling with a lot and could be questioning things because of that.

It’s possible Jeremy could help Jinger move away eventually, but if he does I think it’d likely be to just a different flavor of fundie, at least at first. I suppose Jinger (or any of these second gen women) purposely not being made into a brood mare would be a very positive development though, so fingers crossed that winds up happening even if they don’t leave fundamentalism behind completely.

(I’d love for any of these second geners to prove me wrong by publicly leaving by the way. I’d happily admit to being wrong about them if that ends up happening soon.)

[SapphireSlytherin]

I, too, believe you, @louisa05. I've seen it first-hand, as well. However, those who did break out of the fundie lifestyle/brainwashing camp did not marry fundies. The fundies who married fundies stayed fundie forever. Or, at the very least, are still fundie, even many years after leaving their parents' homes.

And can I just say there are some really pretty dresses on that website! Thank you, @Captain Obvious! (for the link)

[Hashtag Blessed]

14 hours ago, CrazyMumma said:

Hmmm you know that just because someone grew up in a certain environment doesn't mean they will be that? I was raised in a patriarchal environment and homeschooled.. Hubby and I are very much equals. Appearances can be deceiving.

Yes, and like I said. I hope they learn and grow away from their upbringings together, but I'm not holding my breath. Jeremy gives me the creeps. I hope I'm totally wrong about him and he turns out to be a kind, intelligent, thoughtful man who will rethink his hateful beliefs in time, but I won't believe it until I see some evidence. 

@louisa05 were those people on reality shows about their fundamentalism? Did a large chunk of their income, and the whole of their public identity since they were young children, hinge on them staying in the cult? I'm sorry but it just isn't the same. These kids have a massive financial incentive, in addition to familial one, to stay. You could argue that TLC might jump at the chance for a Kimmy Schmidt style spinoff of Jeremy and Jinger experiencing new secular or liberal things. (Going to a real natural history museum and/or a drag show comes to mind. Hell, I'd watch the shit out of that.) But that likely means losing family support and approval. There's no guarantee that TLC would buy that anyway. All I'm saying is, don't hold your breath. Hope for it, pray for it, it is totally possible! Just don't count on Jeremy to make it happen. 

I'll be pleased if Jinger continues to delay motherhood and has a normal sized family on her own timeline. (That is assuming she is purposely delaying.) But she'll still be married to a Catholic hating, pray-the-gay-away, preacher who has the final say on everything she does, wears, and eats.

[louisa05]

I, too, believe you, [mention=15834]louisa05[/mention]. I've seen it first-hand, as well. However, those who did break out of the fundie lifestyle/brainwashing camp did not marry fundies. The fundies who married fundies stayed fundie forever. [emoji20] Or, at the very least, are still fundie, even many years after leaving their parents' homes.
And can I just say there are some really pretty dresses on that website! Thank you, [mention=19098]Captain Obvious[/mention]! (for the link)

One of my best friends was a homeschooled fundie steeped on GOP politics and gender roles. She married a fellow fundie raised homeschooler she met at a sort of summer mission camp. She once told me women were not made for jobs and we can’t physically handle them. That’s just one example. She published three Christian novels all focused on SAHMs. She homeschooled her kids for half of their education. She did a “women’s ministry leadership “ two year course at her fundagelical church. She tried to save me when I was in the process of converting to Catholicism and would not bring her daughters to my “liberal Catholic” wedding 8 years ago.

And she and her husband walked away from church together, put their kids on public school, she lost her writing contract and is self publishing secular YA novels now. They give money to liberal Dem candidates and celebrate solstice instead of Christmas.

It happens.

[SapphireSlytherin]

15 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

celebrate solstice instead of Christmas.

This. Is. Fabulous! I'd love to be her best friend!

[Carm_88]

I very much think that people can walk away from fundamentalism. I also think that people grow and change as they age, so it might be a small step away in the beginning, but become bigger over time. 

I just don't think that Jeremy is moving away from fundamentalism. He may not be quiverfull, he may be charming and handsome, Jinger may wear pants; but I don't at all think they are equal. I don't see them walking away from the show. I don't think that Jeremy is a bad guy, although he would say that I am going to hell. I see him as a preacher spreading a hateful message, that the God that I believe in would never accept. 

[2manyKidzzz]

On a very shallow note here.....the dress seems to have been purchased new specifically for Jinger. So no matter what ideology..Jinger is having some fun overall. Which is nice. Ideology aside of course

[Hashtag Blessed]

@louisa05 That's wonderful! It does give me hope for some of the kidults to hear a story like that. I know I sound really pessimistic and doom-and-gloom, but I'm just calling it based on what I see. I think Jinger has a good chance of breaking away, but I'm wary of painting Jeremy as this enlightened white knight that's going to rescue her from it all. He's marinated in koolaid! I hope he changes and grows, but that's not going to happen overnight.

I have family who are steeped in the koolaid and have NEVER left. And likely never will. They may relax a little about us drinking in front of them, or waltzing at a wedding occasionally, but they're still in it up to their eyeballs. I have other family that are steeped in a different kind of koolaid, though similar. Every obstacle in life just seems to drive them further into fundie quagmire. It is maddening.

My point is, yes they might grow out of the cult. I hope they do. But right now? They're in it. Hard.

That dress website is obviously all-modesty-all-the-time. So despite branching out in her wardrobe choices, she's still actively seeking out and supporting companies that uphold the Duggar modesty standards.* (The "swimwear" on that site is, at least, less hideous than those aqua-frumpers they used to wear.)

*ETA: That is, if this is indeed the site she purchased it from. 

[elliha]

3 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

There you go:

http://daintyjewells.com/a-night-in-paris-more-colors/

http://daintyjewells.com/a-night-in-paris-in-royal-blue/

http://daintyjewells.com/a-night-in-paris-in-kelly-green/

http://daintyjewells.com/a-night-in-paris-in-chocolate/

http://daintyjewells.com/night-in-paris-in-cranberry/

They also make this one, which is similar:

http://daintyjewells.com/charming-in-lace-dress-more-colors/

Wow, I would definitely wear the read and the chocolate one. Probably the blue one too.

[SapphireSlytherin]

I would wear the "Nantucket" dress in a heartbeat. And I'd recite the limerick every single time I wore that dress. Out loud.

[Haley]

I think the dress from Jinger's most recent Instagram post is from that wedding she went to for a friend, where she was a bridesmaid.

 

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

I think you're right, @Haley, and I'm glad she's getting some use out of the dress afterward!

[ElToro]

Never mind Jinger's dress.... It looks like Jeremy has been shopping at the Jim Boob's Cheap Ill-Fitting Shiny Suit Store. 

[love2scrap]

I'm one of those fundie kids who wrote letters to my worldly friends pleading with them to turn to god...

 

A god who failed me miserably and who i no longer believe in. Yet i dont say very much about my new beliefs for two reasons: 1) i still have much unlearning and learning to do in this journey of life. 2) my family is still rather fundie. Although most of us have walked away from the toxic fundie church we grew up in, 99% of the time we are treading a fine line when it comes to happy family gatherings.. my dad is still entrenched in gender roles, modesty, patriarchy, and all that gross shizzle.

I can see how 2nd gen fundie kids may change their thinking but stay on the conservative track... just to keep the family peace. Not saying it's right or authentic of them to do so. I just understand why they might do so.

[louisa05]

7 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

This. Is. Fabulous! I'd love to be her best friend!

Yes and no. She is still quite black and white in her thinking, she has merely changed sides. So she is a bit difficult sometimes. And she is so determined to avoid traditional gender roles that she takes it to absurdity at times. She refused to let her daughters learn any cooking skills because she doesn't want them to be tied to traditional roles. For a long time, she made her husband--who now does all the cooking--prepare lunches for her and the kids to eat when they were at home and he was at work, because if she or the girls got their own lunches, they would be embracing traditional roles. And there's plenty more nonsense like that. 

People do leave, though. I know so many who I knew from the Christian school who have left. They have all taken different paths out and ended up in different places, but it is not impossible. 

I would also add that the fact that Jeremy reads and Jinger is now reading is the most significant point in their favor for getting out. That was how it started for my friend. She read stuff. And she gradually began reading more and more stuff outside of the narrow belief system indoctrinated in her while growing up. But it is very gradual. Just because they are currently reading stuff that reinforces their belief system doesn't mean that they are never going to intentionally or unintentionally pick up a book that challenges that belief system. And the act of reading opens people to thinking more...so when the challenging stuff gets picked up, they are ready to think. I wouldn't expect a change from any of the Dugger kids next week. My friend and her husband were in their mid to late 30s when their views began to change and they began to question. But they had picked up stuff that challenged their thinking for a good 2-3 years before they reached the point of really asking questions. I also saw my friend gradually begin to shed the other things she'd been taught prior to the real questioning--she began watching more television, they started going to more movies, listening to a wider variety of music, the clothing she wore changed, she cut off her long permed hair, and so on. 

[llg1234]

Good eye @Haley!

Idc about the dude, but I love Jinger's in the outfit in the first pic. As a regular wearer of all black, It's definitely something I might wear.  I'm guessing it's from a wedding, but I don't recognized that bridesmaid dress.

[HarleyQuinn]

Oh fuck I have that dress.(the light blue lace once) This is the 2nd time this has happened with a fundy.

Uggghhhhhhh

[SapphireSlytherin]

@HarleyQuinn - but it's a pretty dress and doesn't look fundie to me. It's gorgeous, and (IMHO) at least it's Jinger's dress and not Jill's.   

[HarleyQuinn]

1 minute ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

@HarleyQuinn - but it's a pretty dress and doesn't look fundie to me. It's gorgeous, and (IMHO) at least it's Jinger's dress and not Jill's.   

That's true. I'd have to burn it otherwise. Lol

If it is the same one it has a decent sized tear drop opening in the back.