Jinjer 31: Books, Books, and More Books

[justoneoftwo]

For those who only liked a few characters I'm curious which ones and why.  Maybe this is too off topic but I'm always interested in people's opinions of literature and enough people know about it it might be an interesting topic.

[nausicaa]

20 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Angle of Repose by Wallace Stegner is on that list. 1972. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_Repose. Pretty amazing.

Yes! That was amazing and one of the great surprises that came from tackling that list (is it my gift for managing to tough my way through Tropic of Cancer and Sons and Lovers?) A book I never would have read if it hadn't been on that list, but was so amazing when I did.

Other pleasant surprises: The Postman Always Rings Twice, I,Claudius, and Zuleika Dobson (absolutely hysterical!)

[apandaaries]

Oh man...I'm a huge Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire fan.  I love how so much of what he writes is based on actual history and feudal times -- but then with some undead zombie-types and dragons to keep it even spicier.  Back when I was an English major, we started with lit before Beowulf (just a few poems, of course) and moved on from there, learning lots of historical context on the way, but with little insight into the actual people living those lives...which is partially why I think the series appeals to me so much.  Women with limited agency but big dreams, ambitious men with swords and somtimes armies, complicated family alliances, questionable codes of honor, endless descriptions of food (a plus for me, at least, as a reader)...and then some strange supernatural elements with lots of foreshadowing and mysterious omens.  It's wonderful!

 But then again, I like some Tolkien (though not the biggest fan in the world, nor even the biggest fan in my family circle).  If it helps, GRRM meant to create a huge, messy world too big to depict on-screen, since he'd been hemmed in as a screenwriter for years. There were supposed to be five central characters in what was intended to be a trilogy...but it's clearly grown beyond all that now. It's certainly not for everyone and it's not perfect, but I have a lot of love for the series.

[Thorns]

I like fantasy, but I couldn't finish Tolkien. Maybe I should try again. 

I love Raymond Feist  Magician (the later books were not as good though)  and Empire-series, Mercedes Lackey, the Belgariad.. This thread gave me a lot of tips! 

 

[Snowless]

19 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

If it helps, GRRM meant to create a huge, messy world too big to depict on-screen, since he'd been hemmed in as a screenwriter for years. There were supposed to be five central characters in what was intended to be a trilogy...but it's clearly grown beyond all that now. It's certainly not for everyone and it's not perfect, but I have a lot of love for the series.

Sounds like the backstory to Leo Tolstoy writing War and Peace.  You can watch the TED-Ed video about it here.

[CoveredInBees]

5 hours ago, HereticHick said:

Not to break up the book club, but I wanna make a prediction:  JinJer will actually make it to their 1st wedding anniversary without a baby announcement.   They will go on a short wedding anniversary trip somewhere, but not to Tontitown. A puppy **may** be an anniversary gift.

Ssssshhhhhh..........

Don't jinx it  

[Bad Wolf]

LOTR is my go to comfort reading. I pull it out every couple of years and indulge myself.

I have a friend who often chokes up when she goes into a library. She is so grateful that they exist, and she grew up with books all over the house. Not deprived at all.

I've enjoyed the book discussion, because whether I agree with other people's choices, the fact that we do have choices is enough for me.

[Maggie Mae]

 

Maybe I should finish the ASOIAF reread I started here years ago. I love me some ASOIAF. Clash of Kings was hard to get through the first time. And probably the second, as I was so focused on plot and they introduced new characters and places. I'm really hoping we go see Starfall soon. It sounds so magical. 

If you don't like the number of characters in the first book, and don't care about them, it's probably not worth reading the next books. They only introduce more POVs and more characters and places. I much prefer the books to the show  - the show is the book just dumbed down and with 90% of the magical fantasy elements stripped away. Season one was a fantastic adaptation. The rest, meh. 

I loved Catcher in the Rye, but everyone seems to hate it now. I think it's some sort of value difference in the younger millennials. I don't think i'll find time to reread it, I'm in a different place now. 

I quit LOTR halfway through the second book. Too much singing and it was just boring. I liked the parts about the hobbits and their lives, not so much the journey and the bad guys who are just bad for no reason other than "evil." I liked the Hobbit, thought the movie didn't need to be three parts. Not even sure if I saw the last film. 

I think my favorite Narnia book was Voyage of the Dawn Treader, followed by the Magicians Assistant. 

[PennySycamore]

@Bad Wolf,  I used to read the first chapter of  The Hobbit to my girls to get them down for their naps.  It was't because I found it boring, but because I found that opening passage lyrical..  "In a hole in the ground, there lived a hobbit."

[llg1234]

 

*insert foot fetish joke here*

[WiseGirl]

22 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

I can’t have Salem’s Lot in my house. 

I agree! Picture little high school me staying up late, reading the book into the wee hours, and a tree branch taps the window ( at least I convinced myself it was the tree branch). Next thing you know I have every damn light on in my room while holding a cross necklace, lol! Never reading that book again!

[SapphireSlytherin]

3 minutes ago, WiseGirl said:

I agree! Picture little high school me staying up late, reading the book into the wee hours, and a tree branch taps the window ( at least I convinced myself it was the tree branch). Next thing you know I have every damn light on in my room while holding a cross necklace, lol! Never reading that book again!

The first time my parents left me at home alone (I was 18) while they went on a four-day trip to Vegas, I had to put every single one of my Stephen King books outside on the carport. And I had every light in the house on. For four days... lol

[calimojo]

What is the booklist people keep talking about?

 

[SassyPants]

39 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

The first time my parents left me at home alone (I was 18) while they went on a four-day trip to Vegas, I had to put every single one of my Stephen King books outside on the carport. And I had every light in the house on. For four days... lol

I remember reading the true crime story of Canadian serial killer Paul Bernardo and his wife Karla Homolka while on a vacation in Spain, and I actually took the book to the hotel lobby and threw it in the trash... and never again have I read a true crime story. This happened in 1995.

[fluffernutter]

My parents let me watch Salem's Lot ( the movie) WHEN I WAS FOUR. I am still petrified of nighttime, and dusk, and noises on the window. I can't even imagine the book. 75,000 hell no's.

[nausicaa]

4 hours ago, calimojo said:

What is the booklist people keep talking about?

 

The Modern Language Association's Top 100 Novels of the 20th Century. 

[Nikedagain?]

13 hours ago, amandaaries said:

Oh man...I'm a huge Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire fan.  I love how so much of what he writes is based on actual history and feudal times -- but then with some undead zombie-types and dragons to keep it even spicier.  Back when I was an English major, we started with lit before Beowulf (just a few poems, of course) and moved on from there, learning lots of historical context on the way, but with little insight into the actual people living those lives...which is partially why I think the series appeals to me so much.  Women with limited agency but big dreams, ambitious men with swords and somtimes armies, complicated family alliances, questionable codes of honor, endless descriptions of food (a plus for me, at least, as a reader)...and then some strange supernatural elements with lots of foreshadowing and mysterious omens.  It's wonderful!

 But then again, I like some Tolkien (though not the biggest fan in the world, nor even the biggest fan in my family circle).  If it helps, GRRM meant to create a huge, messy world too big to depict on-screen, since he'd been hemmed in as a screenwriter for years. There were supposed to be five central characters in what was intended to be a trilogy...but it's clearly grown beyond all that now. It's certainly not for everyone and it's not perfect, but I have a lot of love for the series.

I want to read the GOT books because I LOVE the show. But alas! A girl has no books. (I can remedy that with my bff Amazon shortly.) 

I guess I have gotten lazy. I've been listening to books lately, right now I'm listening to Celeste Ng's new book and I love it. My oldest daughter asked me snarkily if I even remembered how to read. Whatever. 

[AlwaysExcited]

Favorite fantasy - Harry Potter. LOTR - liked it, but don't remember much. ASOIAF - first book sits on shelf for years, and one day I will read it. Love the show. Found Narnia too preachy even as a kid, but enjoyed the story. Peter annoyed the fuck out of me, though. 
Have never read Catcher in the Rye, but I love How to Kill a Mockingbird. Scarlet Letter - same story as ASOIAF. I would like to read The King of Flies, but haven't got to it. Great Gatsby was boring. Read Little Women as a child, only remember something about Joe (?) running and someone having hard time managing money. 
This year my reading list almost exclusively consists of King, Gaiman and Prachett. And non fiction. 
And I want Kindle for Christmas.  

[laPapessaGiovanna]

18 hours ago, Dugg@rTime said:

wish they'd make the Belgariad/Mallorian series into a film. Ive read those books many times  in my life and would love to see it on the big screen.

I too love that series and I have mixed feelings about this. I'd like to see it less forgotten, but I don't want to see them ruined by movies.

[Lurky]

Re Lord of the Rings.  I loved it when I was 11-15, then I got more political, and over the next years I started wondering about the lack of women in it, and the way Eowyn is punished so harshly for stepping out of her lane.  And then the rigid class distinctions really, really bothered me too - after all they've gone through, Sam will always be Frodo's servant.  And the whole thing about race too!  Gimli and Legolas' friendship being such a shocking thing!  It is so "the rich man in his castle, the poor man in his gate", and it's only exceptional male characters that can transcend their racial characteristics.

But the ultimate thing was the orcs.  They never had any motivation apart from being generically evil, but I didn't really get why they made me angry under I read Pratchett's Unseen Academicals.

I guess part of the problem was I got into LotR (and wow I was so into it) before I knew about lit crit, so if I'd come to it as an adult, I might have been able to put aside the political stuff but it felt like a I'd been conned into enjoying it (much as I felt conned when I realised the Narnia series was a Christian allegory)

 

@singsingsing The adaptation of ASOIAF into GoT was fascinating as the TV types deliberately upped the sex and violence.  So scenes that in the book are in random places are in brothels in the book, with lots of tits as set dressing.  And the most controversial GoT decisions are the showrunners going all male gaze on us. 

I've read that the HBO exec producers are the ones actively pushing for more sex and female nudity across their shows, and it's so frustrating.  I first read GRRM through his multi-author series Wild Cards, and I enjoy his writing, but I can see why others wouldn't like his sprawling style.
 

[FleeJanaFree]

Here's the list http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/. I'm ashamed to say even with my quest to read more classics, I've only read three off this particular list, and, honestly, didn't recognize about half the titles. I guess I have some work to do!

 

edit: shocked that I didn't see any Austen on there!

[singsingsing]

40 minutes ago, Lurky said:

Re Lord of the Rings.  I loved it when I was 11-15, then I got more political, and over the next years I started wondering about the lack of women in it, and the way Eowyn is punished so harshly for stepping out of her lane.  And then the rigid class distinctions really, really bothered me too - after all they've gone through, Sam will always be Frodo's servant.  And the whole thing about race too!  Gimli and Legolas' friendship being such a shocking thing!  It is so "the rich man in his castle, the poor man in his gate", and it's only exceptional male characters that can transcend their racial characteristics.

But the ultimate thing was the orcs.  They never had any motivation apart from being generically evil, but I didn't really get why they made me angry under I read Pratchett's Unseen Academicals.

I guess part of the problem was I got into LotR (and wow I was so into it) before I knew about lit crit, so if I'd come to it as an adult, I might have been able to put aside the political stuff but it felt like a I'd been conned into enjoying it (much as I felt conned when I realised the Narnia series was a Christian allegory)

Was Eowyn punished for stepping out of her lane, though? I never saw it that way. Tolkien wrote her as one of the most badass heroes with one of the most badass scenes in the entire series. She [spoiler alert!] defeats the big bad guy that literally no man can defeat. I think she just changes her priorities. She wants to marry Aragorn and/or die in glorious battle because she sees no other point to her life, no other way out of her misery. Deciding she's going to marry Faramir and be a healer instead may have involved taking on a more traditionally feminine role, but it always struck me as simply evolving in her priorities and embracing joy in life rather than glory in death. And she didn't marry an alpha male type who said, "Hey little lady, quit your unwomanly fighting and spend your days swooning over my manliness and making me sandwiches!" Faramir was a pretty sensitive dude himself, and, like Eowyn in the end, more interested in healing than fighting. I think they both made that journey and came together in the middle.

The orcs being pure evil never really bothered me, because that's what they're supposed to be. They're not human beings. They were specifically created for evil by an evil entity. I always viewed them as representations of evil itself at work in the world. Sam's servant relationship with Frodo bugged me in the beginning, but their relationship evolves hugely by the end. And the fact that elves and dwarves generally hate each other due to past grievances and prejudices, but Legolas and Gimli wind up being bffs, is also a positive. While I'm not denying that Tolkien has issues and the books are a product of their time, I do think he was more subverting the master-servant thing and questioning racial prejudice, rather than celebrating it. Obviously not to the extent that we might deem acceptable in 2017, but I really do feel that the books aren't as straight up black and white, good vs. evil as people tend to think.

All that said, I'm not discrediting your (or anyone's) issues with the books whatsoever! They're perfectly valid and understandable! Just giving my alternative viewpoint.  

I wasn't a fan of Narnia when I tried to read it as a kid. I had no idea it was supposed to be a Christian allegory back then. When I tried to read 'His Dark Materials' a few years later, I had the exact same experience. It was only later that I learned that Philip Pullman essentially set out to write the anti-Narnia. Then everything made sense. 

[singsingsing]

Sorry, just one more Tolkien tidbit: if you want strong/awesome female characters, please please please read The Silmarillion - particularly Beren and Luthien (I know the Beren and Luthien book recently came out, but I haven't read it). Luthien is one of the most powerful characters Tolkien created, and quite possibly the most badass.

[Icea]

19 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Sam's servant relationship with Frodo bugged me in the beginning, but their relationship evolves hugely by the end.

 

 

I've always interpreted it that Sam was the one who was most adamant in keeping the "master/servant" relationship and that Frodo did treat Sam as more than a friend but Sam wanted to keep the status quo. That also says quite a lot about Sam's self esteem and imagined self worth, and I think Tolkien did a good job at portraying what a master/servant relationship really is like - if you've spent a good chunk of your life believing you have to serve someone, it's going to be extremely hard to stop doing that (which come to think of it applies to the Duggars really well).

[singsingsing]

4 minutes ago, Icea said:

I've always interpreted it that Sam was the one who was most adamant in keeping the "master/servant" relationship and that Frodo did treat Sam as more than a friend but Sam wanted to keep the status quo. That also says quite a lot about Sam's self esteem and imagined self worth, and I think Tolkien did a good job at portraying what a master/servant relationship really is like - if you've spent a good chunk of your life believing you have to serve someone, it's going to be extremely hard to stop doing that (which come to think of it applies to the Duggars really well).

Absolutely. If I recall correctly, Sam was also one of a large number of siblings, and his father was rather overbearing. But he arguably becomes to biggest hero of the story, and was absolutely crucial in the defeat of Sauron. Frodo doesn't stick around the Shire, and Sam becomes mayor and is a celebrated and highly respected figure for the rest of his life. In other words, Sam starts the story as a servant and ends it as the complete opposite.