Jinjer 31: Books, Books, and More Books

[JesusCampSongs]

On 9/29/2017 at 2:29 PM, JillyO said:

Um... so I don't know ALL of the authors, but juding by the ones I do know and the names of the rest, I'm just going to say that that is one VERY white, Anglo-American list right there.

I scanned it and didn't come across any women of color (that I recognized), nor any Native American/First Nations writers. Not quite sure how a list of great English language novels of the twentieth century can have multiple books by the same white men while leaving out Toni Morrison, Zora Neale Hurston, Alice Walker, Louise Erdrich, Sherman Alexie, Alice Munro, Margaret Atwood, Shirley Jackson...eh. 

I have pretty strong opinions on the subject of the canon and which works are identified as being Good Literature while other works are consigned to genres with varying degrees of respectability. Jennifer Weiner has made a lot of good points about misogyny and the literary establishment, and how dismissive attitudes towards "women's fiction" and the people who write it perpetuate it. 

I have a degree in literature, and I read books from all across the genre spectrum. And while there are some sorts of books I am not very interested in, I'm not going to reinforce systemic bigotry towards women, teenagers, people of color, etc., by mocking them, their writers, or their readers. That said, I do think it's important to call out writers who produce bigoted works, or whose attitudes towards other writers and readers are problematic (looking at you, John Updike and also Jonathan Franzen). 

[Nikedagain?]

34 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

@Maggie MaeHe's a fantastic sailor and has some pretty witty remarks. I have a soft spot for pirates. 

@Nikedagain?So much has happened that I lose track of characters. Completely overlooked Joffrey... (SPOILER)

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My thoughts are torn on him. It's so easy to despise him and it's so fun to as well. I definitely cheered when he choked to death the way he did.

At the same time, he wasn't entirely to blame for how he turned out. He was the product of incest, was over indulged by his mother, abused at times by the man he thought was his father, and given far too much power at too young an age. He was a fantastically evil little asshole who deserved what he got - but he was also a scared little boy in way over his head too. And with Margarey's influence, you see glimpses of a better person who would like to be beloved of his people rather than feared. At least that's how I always saw him.

Ramsay, on the other hand, is what Joffrey could have been had he grown to full adulthood - an evil and sadistic sociopath who only finds enjoyment in hurting people. He has motivating factors, like being a bastard and feeling the need to prove himself, but he truly enjoys hurting other people. I don't think anyone or anything could inspire him to be a better man.

@Jinder RolesI love Littlefinger too. He literally has his hands in everything happening and you never know what he's going to do. I love how unpredictable he is.

I also love Margery, Lady Olenna, Ygritte, Varys, Tyrion, Ned, and Lord Commander Mormont. I also have soft spots for the "villains"* as well - Cersei, Jamie, Tywin specifically. Cersei because of her fierce love for her kids and I get her motivation to protect them even if I don't agree with her choices. Jamie because he has one of the most interesting character arcs and development of any character in the books. And Tywin because I can't help but admire the fact that he is a brilliant and extremely effective leader.

I also really enjoy Sansa and Arya's characters because they're a nice balance. They show that very feminine women and women who shun traditional feminity can both be very powerful and strong characters in their own ways.

*I put villains in parenthesis because there are very few characters wholly good or evil in the books. Who you view as a villain also very much depends on the perspective you're getting and the books heavily feature the Starks who are at odds with the Lannisters, so it makes perfect sense the Lannisters would be viewed as villains. 

You are probably like me now and really have a tough time viewing Jamie as a villain these days...So conflicted about him. It will be very interesting to see what happens with him.

Littlefinger is the consummate brilliant villain. Divide and conquer. He wasn't evil and definitely had redeeming qualities. His ambition destroyed him.

I think Ramsay Bolton is the most evil character to ever be portrayed on film. Lol. And TWD have had some sinister fellas. I like Jorah A LOT. He's such a flawed person, and we see him grow so much. Like Theon and the Hound, but in a very different way. 

I think you and I could talk GOT all night! 

[Jinder Roles]

@VelociRapture When they cast Aiden Gillen as Littlefinger, I was in heaven. Superb actor. His "chaos is a ladder" was one of the best moments on the show. Plus, his accent gives me butterflies. My nickname for him is Lord Bae Licks.  (I have a dirty brain) 

A lot of people think he's creepy, but he destabilized an entire kingdom with his wits...twice! You have to respect him. I personally think he's Frank Underwood's ancestor. 

Spoiler

As for Cersei, I want to like her but the arrogance in her quest for vengeance annoys me. The power she acquires isn't sustainable but her bloodthirst for anyone who she perceives to be against her makes her blind to that. She has so many resources at her disposal, but she either wastes them or misuses them. Tywin said it best: she isn't as smart as she thinks she is.  The only reason she lasted longer than Baelish (on the show), is that Bran came back. With a clairvoyant and face-changing assassin against you, you're basically fucked)

Plus she blew up Margaery and I can't forgive her for that. 

Lady Olenna is a bad-ass bitch...both in books and show. I aspire to be her in old age. 

I don't think Ramsey would be what Joffrey turned into as an adult. They're both sick but Ramsey is smarter and isn't a coward. 

 

[Nikedagain?]

35 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

When they cast Aiden Gillen as Littlefinger, I was in heaven. Superb actor.

Did you watch The Wire?? 

LOVE HIM

[Gillyweed]

1 hour ago, Nikedagain? said:

You are probably like me now and really have a tough time viewing Jamie as a villain these days...So conflicted about him. It will be very interesting to see what happens with him.

Spoiler

I really wonder who is going to be left at the end of the final season. I love almost every character left (at least those whose names I can remember LOL), and would hate to see Jaime, Tyrion, or any of the remaining Starks go. Whatever happens, the demise of Cersei has to be just as grand as the death of Joffrey.

How do you guys predict GoT will end? I think Daenerys will die, and Jon will end up as the King of the seven kingdoms.

I wasn't sure what would be safe to talk about without spoiling GoT, so I put everything under a spoiler.

[Nikedagain?]

22 minutes ago, Gillyweed said:

I really wonder who is going to be left at the end of the final season. I love almost every character left

Spoiler

What was the deal with Tyrion's face at the very end??

Dany should not have burned up the Tarlys. A very Cersei thing to do...

 

[apandaaries]

OMG. GOT thread drift. 

Spoiler

@Gillyweed I'm attached to Jaime now, too, but I don't think he'll last much longer after killing Cersei -- and I think he's the younger brother who will wrap his hands around her throat and do her in. Not only do we have a prophecy, but he's also experienced in killing monarchs and strangulation is, sadly, often the way a man kills his lover (and in this case sister, but...it's GOT)...shit.  Now I'm wondering if we'll see the same purple coloring on Cersei that we saw on Joffrey.  GRRM does enjoy patterns and symmetry (did we ever see Kevan Lannister die on the show? We didn't, did we? Just Tywin, IIRC...another sad loss from the page to the screen).

Also curious about Dany -- GRRM keeps reminding us that with every Targaryen birth, the gods flip a coin to determine if that one is crazy.  She does love to burn her enemies...but I also think she and Jon will reproduce and keep the line alive.  Or maybe I just hope that, since GRRM also shows us family lines being extinguished. 

I also suspect the Starks and the wights/Night King have some kind of longstanding and forgotten alliance, thus necessitating the "a Stark must always be at Winterfell" line. Something about their family keeps the whitewalkers at bay...well, at least until ice dragons/undead dragons get involved and the Wall goes down.  

AND I totally agree about the Sansa hate being horrific.  Too me it signals a lot of internalized misogyny and a fundamental lack of understanding about the lives of women throughout history. Being a silly, naive teen (on screen, younger in the books) doesn't mean she should be killed or tortured, but so many people despise her.  It confuses me that so many people fail to understand her situation in any way, shape, or form. It saddens me.

 

[CarrotCake]

7 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

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What was the deal with Tyrion's face at the very end??

Dany should not have burned up the Tarlys. A very Cersei thing to do...

 

Spoiler

I think he told Cersei that Dany was barren and the little Lannister will therefore have no enemy from the Targaeryan side and could take over in the next generation. This will be the only reason why Cersei was willing to hold off the war.

And now Tyrion is a bit worried that maybe Dany is not barren at all and there will be a Jon-Dany baby which will be an even bigger threat to the little Lannister then a Dany-only baby. In that case Cersei is going to be even more angry with Tyrion then she already is.

But that is just my guess. 

 

[Nikedagain?]

10 hours ago, amandaaries said:

I also suspect the Starks and the wights/Night King have some kind of longstanding and forgotten alliance, thus necessitating the "a Stark must always be at Winterfell" line. Something about their family keeps the whitewalkers at bay...well, at least until ice dragons/undead dragons get involved and the Wall goes down.  

Spoiler

Speaking of Starks, Can someone explain to me about Uncle Benjin? Is he living or dead? Maybe I missed something important. I have the books on kindle... guess I should get started!

 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Nikedagain? said:

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Speaking of Starks, Can someone explain to me about Uncle Benjin? Is he living or dead? Maybe I missed something important. I have the books on kindle... guess I should get started!

 

Spoiler

He was half-dead when one of the children of the forest found him. They stopped him from becoming a white walker or wight, but the price was that he wasn't entirely alive. As such, he was prevented from returning south of the wall due to the magic in it.

That said, RIP fire ball wielding Uncle Benjen. We barely knew you. 

@amandaaries

Spoiler

Kevan was killed when the Great Sept of Baelor was blown up on Cersei's orders. Different from the books, but an interesting choice for them to make. It shows just how far gone Cersei is at that point - I don't think she ever would have considered allowing a family member to die that way before losing two of her children... but at that point she just didn't give a shit anymore and he was coming between her and her only remaining son (RIP Tommen - I hope Ser Pounce is still chasing mice somewhere in the Red Keep!)

 

[apandaaries]

@VelociRapture 

Spoiler

That's right! Kevan had become a thorn in Cersei's side and she was finished with all that.  

Tommen never had a chance, poor kid.  I suspect Ser Pounce and that wild cat (the one Arya chased during her first dancing lessons) are taking over the Red Keep. 

Is anyone else curious about whether or not the Mad King ever raped Tywin's late wife Joanna? What would a woman, even a noblewoman, do against a king gone crazy? And she'd never be able to tell Tywin, as that would have been fatal... Do we have others with secret Targaryen blood out there?

 

[Jinder Roles]

3 hours ago, amandaaries said:

@VelociRapture 

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That's right! Kevan had become a thorn in Cersei's side and she was finished with all that.  

Tommen never had a chance, poor kid.  I suspect Ser Pounce and that wild cat (the one Arya chased during her first dancing lessons) are taking over the Red Keep. 

Is anyone else curious about whether or not the Mad King ever raped Tywin's late wife Joanna? What would a woman, even a noblewoman, do against a king gone crazy? And she'd never be able to tell Tywin, as that would have been fatal... Do we have others with secret Targaryen blood out there?

 

Spoiler

See, I thought that might be the case (still might be in the books) but now it's unlikely.

The only reason to put that narrative into play was the 'Three Heads of the Dragon' theory. Seeing as Viserion is now an undead ice dragon, Dany Jon and Tyrion will not be all riding together.

Plus Tyrion has yellow silk hair like his siblings on the show. Though in the books he has whitish hair, different coloured eyes and is slightly deformed (all traits of Targaryen genetic degenesis) 

 

[SassyPants]

On 10/1/2017 at 6:18 AM, SilverBeach said:

Yep, all without struggling to get an education or career training, or struggling to save for a down payment, or struggling at all. Maybe I'm on the wrong side of this deal, haha.

And most importantly, she's been married for 11 months and does not have a 2 month old on her teat.

However, what would a man like Jeremy want with a very young, uneducated, sheltered to the point of being brainwashed, woman? I can't see the connection. What did those 2 have in common before getting hitched? Can a marriage be based on the love of fashion?

[Carm_88]

20 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

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See, I thought that might be the case (still might be in the books) but now it's unlikely.

The only reason to put that narrative into play was the 'Three Heads of the Dragon' theory. Seeing as Viserion is now an undead ice dragon, Dany Jon and Tyrion will not be all riding together.

Plus Tyrion has yellow silk hair like his siblings on the show. Though in the books he has whitish hair, different coloured eyes and is slightly deformed (all traits of Targaryen genetic degenesis) 

 

Spoiler

I thought that too. Plus he's a little bit mad isn't he? Tyrion. You can't really say that he's perfectly sane. Although who in Westros is? 

 

[elliha]

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

What did those 2 have in common before getting hitched? Can a marriage be based on the love of fashion?

Fashion and Jesus, what more do you need?

To be honest, i think they did find some kind of connection on a personal level, perhaps good fit of personalities. Yes, Jinger is sheltered but perhaps he saw she wanted more? Maybe he was smart enough to understand that her upbringing was the main reason she was uneducated and not because she didn't want to learn? Perhaps he picked Jinger against his own common sense because he was in love with her? I don't get why people say he sought Jinger out, as far as I know he met up with the Duggars for some reason (it might have been something as simple as curiosity) and then he met and got to know Jinger. 

I think they will have kids quite soon but I am very glad they have been able to spend some time together before the first one comes along. I would not be at all surprised by an announcement late 2017.

[Maggie Mae]

20 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@Maggie MaeHe's a fantastic sailor and has some pretty witty remarks. I have a soft spot for pirates. 

I'm going to hazard a guess that you haven't read the Damphair chapter from Winds of WInter. Show Euron is quite a bit different than book Euron. I'm not entirely certain as to why they even bothered with his role on the show, but the actor is making it interesting! 

I really like so many characters. Varys, Melisandre, Ygritte, Mance Rayder (shame they cut his role early in the show, I like the actor who played him too), Brienne and Jamie. I could go on. 

Cersei is so complicated! I like her book role so much more - she's slowly turning into Robert, the thing that she hates the most. Drinking, gaining weight, raping her friend, etc. On the show she's just cruel for the sake of cruelty, and I don't even believe she loves her children.

[Nikedagain?]

1 hour ago, Maggie Mae said:

I'm going to hazard a guess that you haven't read the Damphair chapter from Winds of WInter. Show Euron is quite a bit different than book Euron. I'm not entirely certain as to why they even bothered with his role on the show, but the actor is making it interesting! 

I really like so many characters. Varys, Melisandre, Ygritte, Mance Rayder (shame they cut his role early in the show, I like the actor who played him too), Brienne and Jamie. I could go on. 

Cersei is so complicated! I like her book role so much more - she's slowly turning into Robert, the thing that she hates the most. Drinking, gaining weight, raping her friend, etc. On the show she's just cruel for the sake of cruelty, and I don't even believe she loves her children.

Spoiler

 

I'm just now trying to figure Euron out just a little. I hope Theon is able to exact some sort of revenge and redemption, and I really hope that Yara is not dead...

I think Cersei loved her children, because they were Jamie's and not Robert's. (Obviously the first one, (the one who dies as an infant) she describes is Robert's (the dark hair, etc)), and I think she loved her father and definitely Jamie. But I don't think she does anymore. She is FULL ON CORRUPT with power. And Dany might not be far behind her.

 

 

[Carm_88]

7 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

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I'm just now trying to figure Euron out just a little. I hope Theon is able to exact some sort of revenge and redemption, and I really hope that Yara is not dead...

 

Spoiler

I just sat here from a minute and was trying to figure out who the fuck Yara was. Asha, Theon's sister. Always with the name changes. 

 

[justmy2cents]

On 9/29/2017 at 1:47 PM, nausicaa said:

I still haven't completed the list. I'm at 82 but that's after first deciding to try and conquer that list fifteen years ago at the age of 17.

I'm with you.  I decided to conquer the list when it was first released.  I've read 33 books off of the list so far, but only 1 or 2 in the last 6 years.  I don't see myself finishing it but there are a couple more I'd like to get through.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Ok fine, I am letting myself be dragged into the book discussion.  I've read about a quarter of the list (plenty of them due to paternal influence, not because I actually wanted to).

Though I love the shows, I never found myself enthralled by either Outlander or GoT novels, and didn't finish all of them.

As for my personal favorites (not troubling to mention childhood favorites or individual works as that would take forever), may I just suggest Mazo de la Roche's Jalna series, Winston Graham's Poldark series, and Elizabeth Peters' Amelia Peabody series.

[VelociRapture]

@Maggie MaeI fully admit that I can't keep stuff from the books straight anymore. I've read all the books that have been released, but there's so much material! It's impossible for me to remember everything. So while I would have read that chapter, I remember exactly nothing of it. 

I do know that the show combined the character of Victarion (I think is his name) with Euron, so maybe the book character I'm thinking of was actually Victarion and not Euron.

[Imaginary_Wonderland]

I know I am a little late but I am loving the book discussion. I use to read alot, so much actually, but in last few years I hardly read at all. I don't understand why or how this came about, maybe I got lazy, or too obsessed with internet/computer instead, or Netflix binges. One of my goals for 2016 was to get back into a reading habit, so I am loving all the suggestions and book mentions so far. I even opened up a second tab to have my GoodReads ready to add some of the suggestions I am coming across here.

But I think I will bow out of this thread for a little while, now the thread drift has moved on GOT. I absolutely love this show, obsessed with it, and could talk for hours on it . But unfortunately, I came to GOT way late and am far far behind everyone else. I only started late July and I think I am only Season 3.

[Knight of Ni]

I am currently reading the Wheel of Time series and really enjoying it. Does anyone have any suggestions for other books I may enjoy? Loving this book thread drift. 

[AtlanticTug]

I just finished the Neapolitan Novels by Elena Ferrante - it's a 4-book series. I have to say I thought that the first book was outstanding and the others less so but still really interesting. It's a story about the friendship between two women, starts early in their childhood and then goes on to old(ish) age, they grew up in post WW2 Naples. So many people recommended it and I think I read it at the right time in my life, I am approaching my 40s and so my friendships with the women I've known for over 20 decades are really deep and wonderful and also complicated. I'd highly recommend.

[Furbabiesonly]

3 hours ago, Knight of Ni said:

I am currently reading the Wheel of Time series and really enjoying it. Does anyone have any suggestions for other books I may enjoy? Loving this book thread drift. 

I’d recommend just about anything Brandon Sanderson. I fell in love with his writing after he was chosen to finish the WOT series. He’s a brilliant worldbuilder