Dillards 33: Now Including Samuel

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

True, in THEORY, Jill SHOULD be able to have another 2 or 3 kids, unless this birth was more traumatic than we thought.  

I am very concerned now that we are 24 hours out, and no congrats video's from the siblings no pics of Jill & Sammy & Izzy.  I'm starting to think something went terribly wrong and Jill isn't ready to be "seen" yet. Or perhaps Sammy is much sicker than that photo & they are letting on? Though I think if he were doing poorly they would be all over the internet to get the prayer warriors going (and I wouldn't snark on that) so I'm thinking Jill is the one having a hard time

[Baaaaaabe]

32 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

If they're still totally against birth control, including barrier methods, NFP would probably be the best option for them if they want to prevent. FAM is better (in my personal non-fundie opinion) because you can still be sexually intimidate on fertile days as long as it's not penetrative sex, but NFP would be the next best thing. 

Is that the Pearl method? 

[singsingsing]

Just now, Baaaaaabe said:

Is that the Pearl method? 

LOL! I did NOT catch that, but I'm totally leaving it!  Hey, if I knew birth control wasn't an option but I wanted to have sex with my spouse, I would definitely be sexually intimidated whenever my fertile days rolled around, hahaha.

[Carm_88]

I'm hoping that they are just holding out for People and nothing is seriously wrong. I never want to see anyone harmed in all of this, as awful as their beliefs are. 

[VelociRapture]

46 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

@bal maiden, I hear you, was just mentioning it. Don't know if blood sugar testing is routine prenatal care now, wasn't when I had mine. I don't really think under ten pounds is giant though. Mine was eight pounds one ounce with a big round head, and that was enough to push out. I'm not sure there's a correlation between birth weight and later body size. I was a five pound something ounce infant, yet I've always been big. Interesting.

It's likely standard. My sister and I both had glucose tests - her's was in 2015, mine in 2016. We both passed. Her son was 8.5 pounds. My daughter was born at 34 weeks and was 5 pounds. My Doctors were sure she'd have been close to 9 pounds if she stayed in those last six weeks. We like to joke she came out early to be nice to me. 

[Baaaaaabe]

@amandaaries, could you elaborate on "Her husband thought she spoke too loudly, so now she's quieter."? I don't remember having seen this and I'm curious about it.

[calimojo]

I want to clear something up about Gestational Diabetes and IDM (Infant of Diabetic mom). 

 

First of all, most women with typical prenatal care will get tested for GD in their 2nd trimester around 24 weeks, because that is the most typical time when GD starts to develop.    However,  A woman can convert to GD at any point in pregnancy, even in the last weeks.   There are many OBs and Pediatricians who consider LGA (large for gestational age) to be IDM, even if mom was never diagnosed.  Obviously there are exceptions and there are people who just naturally have big babies and are not GD.  But in general,  a baby that is significantly over 9 lbs is likely to be considered a IDM even if mom was never diagnosed, particularly if they are having blood glucose issues.

  This is why prenatal care is important, because abnormal weight gain, or fetal growth should be monitored, and may cue a the OB or competent MW in on the fact that even though mom passed her GD screening test, she may have been a later convert to GD and the baby could be impacted.   

I passed my GD screen with flying colors only to be diagnosed with my GD in the last month of pregnancy.  My kid was right at 8 lb, 8oz.  but without careful attention to a large change in weight from one week to the next, my GD might have been missed and my kiddo would have been even bigger, which probably would have been fine in terms of delivery as I apparently  have the Holland Tunnel for a pelvis as my labors were short and required very little pushing, though number 1 did separate my symphysis pubis because she came out so quickly but she sort of rotated as went past that pubic bone and caused it to separate. 

I am not saying that Samuel or Izzy are definitely IDM, but what I am saying is that if you have an almost 10 pound baby that isn't maintaining its blood glucose levels in the first few days of life,  it is quite likely that mom was a late convert to GD. 
 

[MoonFace]

34 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

(Snip)

While I don't want to start any kind of mommy shaming war, I do think it's fair to support mothers with the births that they want and understand their disappointment should their ideal birth plan not work out.  Most people here seem to really support the idea that a laboring mom should have access to whatever doctor-approved drugs she desires.  Do we really need to shame people if they truly want a vaginal birth experience (or the converse, if they just want the baby out without any pain whatsoever)?

(Snip)

You are right.   There should never be any shame involved with a birth.  

You carried that little being around for X months (Normally 9 - but some don't have that choice for various reasons)   You put up with hormones, back aches, swollen feet, sleepless nights, etc.   Then you have to labor, sometimes for hour upon hour before pushing that being out a place that is small and tender.   Or you have to be cut open and endure the gas pains and healing that involves.   Then you have more hormonal changes.  After that you have sore nipples and sleepless nights.  

Giving birth is not for wimps!   

[apandaaries]

Just now, Baaaaaabe said:

@amandaaries, could you elaborate on "Her husband thought she spoke too loudly, so now she's quieter."? I don't remember having seen this and I'm curious about it.

During one of the THs, they were asked about Jill adjusting to her new life with Derick (I believe it was before they left for Central America, but not 100% sure).  Derick mentioned that Jill was always shouting or using a loud voice because she was accustomed to the noisy chaos of the TTH.   She smiled (because of course. What other fundy response is there?), but if you track her behavior, you can see that she has grown quieter throughout their marriage. 

Watching the young women grow into adulthood, it seems like they had subtle jurisdictions within their own group.  Earlier,  Jana was always shy and quiet, so Jill was loud and talkative.  Jessa was assertive, and Jinger happily followed. Joy was the "tomboy," which was likely just a convenient label because she didn't have another girl in her age range to pair up with.  Now that some have married, we see that Jessa found a new follower and Jinger found a new leader. Joy is exploring her feminine side by cooking and trying to like dresses, which Austin prefers.  Jana remains quiet and unwed. But Jill now defers to the headship and speaks less than she used to.  She was a little annoying and smug, but she was still vibrant and full of life. She just doesn't seem quite the same these days.

[Berta McGee]

Every woman is different. Maybe the fact that the baby was big caused the C-section or it might have been something else. I am not comfortable blaming a woman for not giving birth vaginally . They're being strangely quite with strangely few pictures. I'm concerned that Jill isn't doing well.  The size baby a woman can or can't deliver depends on the woman. I had arrested labors. It hurt plenty but wasn't enough to move things along. My 3rd was 36 hours of labor but much of that was cramping. I was able to sleep for a few hours at a time. My first was 7.8 the second 10.10 the third 8.8 no GD. All were natural although I did have a little something with the third that did pretty  much nothing. I asked for an epidural but it was too late. I wish I asked for all of them!

[Million Children For Jesus]

I don't think anyone has to like Jill or agree with her life decisions in order to feel empathy for her situation. She's still a human being and her feelings are still valid. Having a healthy baby doesn't mean she doesn't deserve, or isn't allowed, to feel disappointed in a repeat c-section. Anyway, it is pure speculation that she's upset about the c-section. Maybe she was hoping for a VBAC, but had already come to terms with whatever outcome she got. 

I don't see how having two c-sections has ruined her midwife career. No man has ever given birth, yet male OB/GYNs delivering babies are assumed to be competent. Why would a woman have to have a vaginal birth to prove her competence? I don't think a vaginal birth is an actual requirement for being a midwife, or that it would be held against her for having a c-section. As long as a midwife knows how to be a midwife, why would it matter? I'm sure there are midwives out there that have had c-sections. (Note: I'm aware that Jill is not a midwife. She only took some classes and was an apprentice.)

Is there any proof that Jill never saw a medical doctor? I've watched three home births and all three women had prenatal care from their regular OBGYN. They had the same course of prenatal care that I had with my hospital births, the only difference being the actual birth was at home. 

5 minutes ago, Berta McGee said:

I am not comfortable blaming a woman for not giving birth vaginally.

Thank you. I can't imagine being told I had a c-section because I personally did something wrong that could have been prevented. Nobody should have to justify, explain, or apologize for having a c-section. Not every woman can pop babies out like a Pez dispenser. 

[SassyPants]

Recently, I read that women who give birth to babies over 9 lbs have a higher incidence of type 2 diabetes later in life. Can not remember the site, but it was on the www.

Another thing I was just thinking about. The differences in upbringing between Ben and Derick. Ben came from a loud home, with lots of little siblings running around. He moved from his parent's home into Duggarville, another loud home with lots of kids running around. He quickly procreated a couple of kids and likely lives in another loud home. Derick lived in a 2 kid home with working parents. He went off to college, and roamed the Himalayas. He likely has never been up close and personal with so many people and so much noise. He quickly procreated 2 small kids with a needy wife. Jeremy was raised much like Derick. I doubt he's jumping right into filling his quiver for Jesus; creating a loud, crazy household. Ginger seems like she's A-Ok with the wait and see approach.

[bal maiden]

3 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Recently, I read that women who give birth to babies over 9 lbs have a higher incidence of type 2 diabetes later in life. Can not remember the site, but it was on the www.

I know that GD increases the risk of type 2 diabetes; I would be interested to know if it's all big babies (because: see previous post regarding recent 10lb-er and prior 9lb-er!)

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, bal maiden said:

I know that GD increases the risk of type 2 diabetes; I would be interested to know if it's all big babies (because: see previous post regarding recent 10lb-er and prior 9lb-er!)

I thought it was just birthing a bigger baby-

[sta_sha]

58 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

Many pregnancies are around 40 weeks of utter hormonal chaos.  Most women feel like their body has been taken over by a small but ever-growing parasite...which eventually prevents them from doing anything normal.

This exactly. I expressed this to a friend earlier this week and she was horrified that I'm anything but thrilled. I mean, I am thrilled, I can' wait to meet our two little ones, but at the same time, my body is definitely no longer my own and it feels very strange. 

I'm sorry that after going through all of that (while chasing a toddler in SCA), Jill didn't get the birth experience that she wanted. I don't know if different/better/any prenatal care would have made a difference for her. If it would have, it's certainly a shame that she wouldn't or couldn't access it. It doesn't seem likely that Jill will get to have the birth experience she so seems to want. I just hope that any future pregnancies/births are attended to by someone who knows what they're doing- although I won't hold my breath.  

[twinmama]

1 hour ago, Gobsmacked said:

My two weighed 6lb at birth. They are now 6 feet 6 and 6 feet 4inches tall. At birth they looked very scrawny.

My twins were 2lb each and I remember walking by the regular nursery (we were obviously in the NICU!) and seeing what must have been like 5 or 6 pound babies and thinking they practically looked like toddlers in comparison!!

[SamiKatz]

2 minutes ago, twinmama said:

My twins were 2lb each and I remember walking by the regular nursery (we were obviously in the NICU!) and seeing what must have been like 5 or 6 pound babies and thinking they practically looked like toddlers in comparison!!

My niece was  8lbs 8 oz when born, but had to be put in an incubator for a few days as my sister also had a long labour (water broke on Sunday, niece was born on Tuesday), and it was startling to see all of those tiny babies and then my niece.

[FakePigtails]

Apparently it's a "thing" now among some crunchy pregnant women to skip GD testing, so I wouldn't assume Jill was tested for it. To be clear, I wouldn't assume she *wasn't* tested for it either, just that it's a real possibility.

Also, I can't speak for those who said this would affect her ability to be a midwife but my assumption is that they mean that among the circles she runs in, she may not be taken as seriously. Yes, WE know it's not a woman's fault she has a c-section, but there are definitely segments of the population who do believe that any woman can and should be able to have a natural birth and if they didn't well then they should have done X, Y and Z and it would have worked.

As for pain control in labor, I say do whatever you're most comfortable with but the shaming is crap. I'm extremely pain averse so it's hard for me to comprehend being okay with labor pain (that may be how the PP meant not getting it, btw) but more power to those who can handle it. And those of us who chose to receive pain control shouldn't be shamed for that either just as we shouldn't (and wouldn't) be shamed for getting anesthetics for dental or other procedures. To go beyond that and claim a danger to babies as a criticism is absurd and awful - if the medications were true dangers they wouldn't be routine! And the medications in epidurals don't go to the baby in any appreciable amount, if at all anyway. I'm not saying they have no effect in some ways either, but if the choice is taking a chance with those manageable effects or having a traumatized mother, well, it seems much better for everyone involved to take the pain meds and not look back.

[twinmama]

Just now, SamiKatz said:

My niece was  8lbs 8 oz when born, but had to be put in an incubator for a few days as my sister also had a long labour (water broke on Sunday, niece was born on Tuesday), and it was startling to see all of those tiny babies and then my niece.

Oh yeah! I remember there being a full term newborn in the NICU while we were there and yes, that baby was like 5 times the size of mine! They said babies are in the NICU because they are sick, early, or both. Mine were just early thankfully. 

[MoonFace]

4 minutes ago, twinmama said:

My twins were 2lb each and I remember walking by the regular nursery (we were obviously in the NICU!) and seeing what must have been like 5 or 6 pound babies and thinking they practically looked like toddlers in comparison!!

My cousin weighed almost 10 pounds and was 23 1/2 inches long.   He was a c-section baby.   The hospital policy was that all c-section babies have to go in an incubator for 24 hours.   He barely fit!  He is now 6 foot 3

[twinmama]

1 minute ago, MoonFace said:

He barely fit!

LMAO, poor guy! haha

[apandaaries]

4 minutes ago, sta_sha said:

This exactly. I expressed this to a friend earlier this week and she was horrified that I'm anything but thrilled. I mean, I am thrilled, I can't wait to meet our two little ones, but at the same time, my body is definitely no longer my own and it feels very strange. 

According to fundy logic, having carried a baby and given birth, I should somehow be pro-life.  Honestly, though, pregnancy and labor made me realize moreso than ever before, that absolutely NO ONE should ever tell a woman what to do with a pregnancy.  If she's ready, willing, and able to proceed, then awesome.  If not, no one should stand in her way to prevent her from making the best decision for herself.  Pregnancy is so. fucking. hard...and then there's labor.  And THEN the baby/ies is/are little insomniacs with NO communication skills who require round the clock care.  Parenthood is not for those who aren't prepared for serious work and sacrifice. 

[twinmama]

So back to Jill, it will be fascinating to see where they go with future pregnancies. In the last thread someone said it'll be a test of the quiverfull beliefs, which is true, but I also hate putting it that way because it makes it seem like if they choose to do the medically smart thing and not have a million more c-sections and children, they are failing their beliefs. Is there ANYTHING in their belief system that would prevent the practically inevitable catastrophe if they just keep getting pregnant? If a doctor says "one more pregnancy and you will rupture and die/lose your baby" can they follow that advice? Or does Jill just have to have babies until she dies in the process?

Also, what would they do if she does keep getting pregnant after they advise no more sections? They have to keep performing them I guess right? Do they refuse to perform a section and force her to labor? Seems too dangerous.

[SassyPants]

I also think that all the Duggars could use some nutritional counseling. I think part of the large size of these infants is diet related. Jessa even said that she gained 20 fewer pounds {Holy Cow, that's a lot less weight] this pregnancy vs her first, and Henry was a lb smaller than Spurgeon.  Also, Michelle said that during her pregnancy with Jessa she ate a candy bar every day. I think a nutritionally poor diet and junk foods are part of why these Duggar babies are so big. Fewer tacos, brownie sundaes and TTC could improve all of their diets. Michelle figured it out. How Jill wasn't eating tons of fruits and veggies in CA would surprise me...maybe she was binging on rice and empanadas? I say this because my own daughter lives in So America and there really is not too much junk food to obtain in the outback regions. Now in the cities, yes, but I did not get the impression that the Dillards lived in a big city.

[nickelodeon]

1 hour ago, eveandadam said:

If they are against the gay lifestyle (Whatever that means) why not abstinence (even within a gay relationship). If you are not a highly sexual person this is not a big obstacle.

The (shitty) idea that gay Christians should adopt religious celibacy does pop up here and there for fundies. For instance, Jeremy Vuolo's church states that "the only acceptable alternative to marriage between one man and one woman is the faithful single life of celibacy as celebrated by Paul in the First Corinthian Letter" (which precludes a celibate same-sex relationship.) One SAHD blogger I follow qualified her reading books by a gay author (E.M. Forster) by assuring us that he remained a bachelor, never acting on the "passions" he "struggled" with (give me a fucking break!)

However, this logic might work in religious traditions that have a place for celibacy in worship and the community (nuns!), but in fundamentalist Christianity, where family and marriage are crucial to religious life, forcing celibacy on gay people can only be a way of singling out and punishing "transgressors." So while some fundies might see this doctrine as a tolerant, generous one, it is idiotically obvious to everyone that it's just another tactic for inflicting pain on LGBTQ people.