Joy and Austin: Back in Arkansas?

[sawasdee]

6 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

AND. Dachau isn't isolated. It's in a town. There's NO WAY people didn't know what was going on inside those walls. 

The guide we had at Dachau was a local, born in 1939. He told us that when the camp opened - six weeks after Hitler took power in 1933 - and townsfolk asked questions, they were told, in no uncertain terms, that if they were curious, they could come in - but not necessarily leave. At that time it was mainly political prisoners, but the local people soon stopped asking questions. They later saw the inmates used as slave labour in local industries, and were forbidden to either speak to or share food with them - and many risked themselves by 'forgetting' food and leaving it in their workplace.

Were they closing their eyes? Yes. And he said his parents' generation admitted that, and were shamed by it. But I wonder how many today, in the same circumstances, would risk themselves and their families.

We all hope we would have the moral courage to protest outrage, but most of us have never been tested. And I truly pray we never are.

[Lurky]

15 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

I would add that they may feel persecuted because people dislike their actions or views but I have to say I don't know that it fits within any definition of persecution I have.  Many people disagree with my views, but that doesn't make me persecuted.  (Sorry, it drives me crazy when people act like disagreement or judgement is persecution, its not).

Especially when the actions people dislike are actively working against other people's rights, because the Duggars and their ilk believe we are less than them.

Michelle Duggar involved herself in politics to try to limit Trans people's abilities to use bathrooms in public!  Josh Duggar was working for an organisation trying to ban equal marriage, stop abortions & all kinds of other things.  They are literally trying to stop my LGBT brothers & sisters in the USA from having even close to the same rights as straight people.  And when they're criticised for it, they're the ones being persecuted?  My ability to marry my partner literally has no impact on their lives, but this is what they put their political energy into.

Re the Holocaust survivors - I doubt VERY much that they've asked if they can meet them in order to convert them.  Instead I reckon they've asked to meet to hear their testimonies, which is something that is common with the remaining Survivor groups.  And I admire the Holocaust survivors who do this, so much, re-living their pain to educate people.  How on earth is it even slightly respectful to go in, in this context, and then after hearing about it, say "oh, but actually you're wrong to be Jewish, Jesus is the Lord" or whatever.  I can only hope they have at least SOME sensitivity, and hold back on that.

Re the Holocaust - one of the things that's overlooked re the Nazis exterminating the Roma and Gypsies and people with Learning Difficulties is that they pretty much managed it.  A proportion of the Jewish people had the ability to escape (cash, connections, people who'd help them etc) while the Roma people.... didn't.  It's tragic.  And of course, with the gay and lesbian people exterminated in the Camps, we absolutely know where the Duggar-esque views lead to, if we're not careful.

[samurai_sarah]

@laPapessaGiovanna

You're right. Sorry, I tried to keep my summary as brief as possible, without going into all the religious wars, and the major political upheaval the Reformation caused. It hurt my little history-nerd heart too, to brush over it all.

@lumpentheologie

Totally agree. Also, if you want to spoiler something, I find it easiest to highlight the bit you want to spoiler, and then click on the "eye" icon on the toolbar. Or click on the eye icon first and then type into the box. Hope this helps.

[lumpentheologie]

1 minute ago, samurai_sarah said:

Totally agree. Also, if you want to spoiler something, I find it easiest to highlight the bit you want to spoiler, and then click on the "eye" icon on the toolbar. Or click on the eye icon first and then type into the box. Hope this helps.

Thank you, I would never have figured it out on my own!

[HOTW]

My Father in Law helped liberate a camp..he only mentioned it once. He too had some meorabilia that was hidden in the attic and my husband had plans to donate it to a museum after his dad passed when we were looking for it one of his sisters revealed that the MIL had taken it all out to the backyard and burned it!. From what my husband said it had some military Nazi maps from a castle they had taken over that might have had  some historical value. All because my MIL was a control freak who did not want my husband to have them.

I was taught in school about the Holocaust and at that time 70s, we were taught about the Jewish Holocaist and the full Holocaust which included all the others the Nazis assasinated. I get pretty burned when people no longer talk about the others when mentioning the Holocaust because the estimates of people they killed have gone up from about 5-6 million to anywhere from 11-20 million total. This is due to the fact that satellite imagings has shown villages that are gone and were never on maps and arechelogists have found mass graves created before the villages were burned to the ground. And speaking with survivors they have spoken of relatives never heard from small locales that literally dsiappeared.

Indifference is an exceptional term for what happened as it says it all. 

[Jana814]

I was always taught about the Holocaust.  Both in regular school and Hebrew school.  My junior and senior years of High School their was a day with no regular classes instead they had survivors come in to tell their stories. 

I have talked about my ex-friend before. What started my decent of not wanted to be friends with her anymore was the second year we had this day she said "I don't believe this happened. I think it was made up". It took everything in my power not to punch her in the face. 

[Carm_88]

The holocaust was horrible, to know that there are people who still to this day don't believe it, is mind blowing. I've never been to any concentration camps, but reading just descriptions have broken my heart. I cried my way through Night in grade 12. So to think that fundies can take the horror of being ripped from your family, taken to camp where you are treated like less then an animal, where you are beaten, tortured, and starved, where everyone may die; to compare this to abortion? That is beyond disgusting. I don't care what your beliefs are but all of these people were living, breathing human beings. They had families, friends, and were going through this world doing no harm. You compare that to abortion? You're sick and disgusting and I can't even deal with your shit. 

What I described above is persecution, having someone tell you that they don't agree with you, is not and will never be. 

[Beermeet]

Anyone watching those Netflix history porn's?  Like The Tudors, Versailles or The Borgias?  I'm loving them.  I've actually learned a lot from looking into what is historically accurate.

 

[Kittikatz]

This missionary trip, and the ignorance behind it, make me sick. I can understand not knowing something, but with the internet, there is just no excuse for the kind of ignorance displayed by the Duggars. It is just straight up willful ignorance, and there's no cure for that.

Why does TLC continue to support this family? They are doing nothing but breeding like rats, cheating (Josh) and pushing their extremist views on everyone they can find who doesn't believe like they do. It's just vile. Any one of the anti-trans robocalls, Josh's various personal disasters, Josh's employment with a hate group, the Dillard's 'mission' to convert Catholics, and now this little missioncation to convert not just Jews, but Holocaust survivors, should be enough to get them yanked. Why are they still on air?

I remember when I was little, a big treat in our family was to go to a restaurant downtown. The owner was a kind, wonderful man who would always pick me up and carry me around the restaurant and the kitchens and cuddle me while he spoke with my parents. I vividly remember the tattoo on his arm (to the point that I could recite the numbers on it). My mother told me not to ask about it, that he was a survivor of Auschwitz, and that everyone else in his family had been killed. I didn't find out until years later that they took me to his restaurant so often because I reminded him of his youngest sister. I also found out he had been a teenager when he was taken there, and that that the Nazis had selected him for medical experiments. These experiments caused him to loose the sight in one eye and it was believed that they had been why he had been unable to have children. People can be monsters.

[Jana814]

@Kittikatz What an amazing story and so sweet that this guy did this. 

I had a Hebrew school classmate who's grandparents excepted (they were already married at the time) his grandfather realized what they were doing by over hearing the guards. 

I'm Jewish and 3rd generation American on both sides of my family. No one in my family died in the Holocaust. Some people find is odd but I don't and never did.  

[nastyhobbitses]

21 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

I would add that they may feel persecuted because people dislike their actions or views but I have to say I don't know that it fits within any definition of persecution I have.  Many people disagree with my views, but that doesn't make me persecuted.  (Sorry, it drives me crazy when people act like disagreement or judgement is persecution, its not).

It strikes me as so childish and fragile when the Duggars and their ilk claim that they're OMG PERSECUTED because they're not allowed to act like assholes with impunity, or they're criticized for being assholes. A lot of people disagree with my liberal views; I don't feel oppressed by people disagreeing with me. Maybe I'd be mad or want to prove my point to them, but it's not discrimination (and I acknowledge that as a white girl with money, it's easier for me to think this way). I do feel oppressed (or at least quite put out) by people treating me with condescension because I am female, or saying/spreading terrible, untrue things about my religion (I'm Jewish), or saying ignorant things about bisexuality, or taking away my right to reproductive choice/care, but disagreeing with me is not oppressing me.

Duggars, if your ego is so fragile or your viewpoint is so unsupported that you can't tolerate criticism or opposition and regard it as an assault on your being, go home and rethink your life.

[HarryPotterFan]

51 minutes ago, Kittikatz said:

I remember when I was little, a big treat in our family was to go to a restaurant downtown. The owner was a kind, wonderful man who would always pick me up and carry me around the restaurant and the kitchens and cuddle me while he spoke with my parents. I vividly remember the tattoo on his arm (to the point that I could recite the numbers on it). My mother told me not to ask about it, that he was a survivor of Auschwitz, and that everyone else in his family had been killed. I didn't find out until years later that they took me to his restaurant so often because I reminded him of his youngest sister. I also found out he had been a teenager when he was taken there, and that that the Nazis had selected him for medical experiments. These experiments caused him to loose the sight in one eye and it was believed that they had been why he had been unable to have children. People can be monsters.

That's such a heartbreaking story. I'm glad you were able to be a source of comfort for him.

13 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

It strikes me as so childish and fragile when the Duggars and their ilk claim that they're OMG PERSECUTED because they're not allowed to act like assholes with impunity, or they're criticized for being assholes.

THIS EXACTLY!! Talk about special snowflakes! And it's an especially ludicrous idea that they feel this way when we're discussing the Holocaust.

[Dugg@rTime]

On 03/07/2017 at 9:53 PM, Dubiousclaire said:

 I am sure if they wanted to convert at any time in their life, they could take it upon themselves. It's no one else's business.

 

I heartily agree with your sentiment, but I'd widen the subject matter to include every person in the world. A person's religion, or lack thereof is none of anyone else's business, and the sooner so called missionaries get this, the better.

As an archaeologist and humanist, I've never really understood the mentality of any Abrahamic religions having a beef with Judaism. After all the teachings in the Torah are the basic foundation blocks of the others. Individuals having issues with other individuals of another belief system, yeah, that's ok, but tarring everyone with the same brush? Nope.

[JDuggs]

I'm the one who said the Duggars would feel persecuted by reading the comments on this thread. They never said it. The definition of persecution is hostility or ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs. Based on some posters' interpretations of information on One for Israel's website, it was concluded that one of the goals of their guided tour of Israel is to convert Holocaust survivors to Jesus. I think that's a huge assumption that this organization is using foreign tourists to try to convert Jews to Jesus. But this is the Duggars! You can't trust the Duggars! So some comments have included "beyond vile," "disgusting," "don't give a fuck about other cultures." This sounds hostile to me and it's all based on some assumption that Joy and Austin got in the faces of Holocaust survivors to inform them that they were going to hell. Since we really have no evidence beyond what the website tells us, I'm assuming that they dropped off food for poor people and that was it. I mentioned this in my first post too. Why does everyone assume that the Holocaust survivors have no agency in this situation? Do people think they are being forced to hear the message about Jesus from American teenagers? This seems ridiculous to me. There's so much to criticize the Duggars about. Joy and Austin's tour of Israel doesn't get me riled up.

[twinmama]

22 hours ago, xlurker said:

The fact that I very likely had close relatives die in concentration camps, people I never knew to exist, causes me pain.

It is very sad, the amount of history both personal/familial and cultural that was lost in the Holocaust.

4 hours ago, Beermeet said:

Anyone watching those Netflix history porn's?  Like The Tudors, Versailles or The Borgias?  I'm loving them.  I've actually learned a lot from looking into what is historically accurate.

 

I haven't watched those specifically, but I learned a lot from my googling while watching The Crown on Netflix.

[onekidanddone]

12 hours ago, Lurky said:

And of course, with the gay and lesbian people exterminated in the Camps, we absolutely know where the Duggar-esque views lead to, if we're not careful.

The Duggar and their ilk really are a pile of disgusting crap. Oh I take that back.  If they were just blithering twits that would be annoying but end there.  They help promote the hate that endangers the rights and lives of LGBT people.

9 hours ago, HOTW said:

I get pretty burned when people no longer talk about the others when mentioning the Holocaust because the estimates of people they killed have gone up from about 5-6 million to anywhere from 11-20 million total.

I'm Jewish and I used to find myself wanting to correct my fellow Jews when they said "the six million". Some people didn't like it when I mentioned the disabled, gays Gypsies and so on. We as a people don't have the monopoly on being the receiving end of genocide.  My cousins are of the Navajo Nation, so um yea if you want to talk about genocide that a good place to start.

[Beermeet]

25 minutes ago, twinmama said:

 

I haven't watched those specifically, but I learned a lot from my googling while watching The Crown on Netflix.

What I have learned is that they are striving to be accurate and entertaining.   Think Titanic, the movie.  There is fact, true tidbits akin to the kicking chunks of iceberg around on deck and fillers for dialogue/ people.

l have The Crown on my to watch list!

[Iamtheway]

12 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

Thank you, I would never have figured it out on my own!

I only knew that feature because I pressed it by mistake while trying to do something else. That is also how I learned half of the shortcuts on my computer. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

6 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

l have The Crown on my to watch list!

It's worth a binge.

[Beermeet]

@JDuggs.  I think you are correct in that the Duggars would see it that way.

However, persecution invokes a mistreatment ( to put it mildly) of a particular people due to race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.  Merely having distain or guessing peoples motives, who put their lives on TV, does not count as persecution.   At worst we're being buttheads.  

Ex:  Michelle making robocalls is persecution, her not liking LGTB people but not doing anything public or malicious about her views is not persecution.  

Persecution is serious.  It's actually killing people, locking them up, burning crosses on their lawn, hunting them down,  targeting a group and anyone who seems like they would belong to that group (evidence be dammed) and anyone who may be hiding or helping said persecuted people.

 

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

I agree with @Beermeet. I'm now wondering though, have the Duggars ever actually claimed persecution? I see it on FJ a lot, but would be interested in seeing where they've cried "persecution" themselves. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

2 hours ago, Kittikatz said:

This missionary trip, and the ignorance behind it, make me sick. I can understand not knowing something, but with the internet, there is just no excuse for the kind of ignorance displayed by the Duggars. It is just straight up willful ignorance, and there's no cure for that.

You have to want to look for this information' and remember the Duggar kids aren't allowed online, want little they do get is hevaly monitored. Also I'm fairly certain Joy and Austin have no idea what these people really went through.  Also you have to realize that they have no idea what they don't know.  How do you look for answers to questions you don't even know you should ask?  Think about ewe two went on a honeymoon that her father probably set up for her to make sure she wasn't allowed free access to the world without his control. 

Think about all the kids with the exception of Jinger, they are still doing exactly what daddy tells them.  And Jinger is the only one who is deviating from what Boob wanted.  I'll be interested to see what J&A do, since they won't have to live off of daddy and won't be living in Tontitown.  The Forsyth's may be boring but I'm guessing they are just simple folks who like want a quiet life with their family and friends.   That isn't a bad life, but it isn't for everyone. 

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, Dugg@rTime said:

 

As an archaeologist and humanist, I've never really understood the mentality of any Abrahamic religions having a beef with Judaism. After all the teachings in the Torah are the basic foundation blocks of the others. Individuals having issues with other individuals of another belief system, yeah, that's ok, but tarring everyone with the same brush? Nope.

People need a scapegoat and a target. People need a punching bag when shit goes south in society. Jews were/are weird and insular, but also pretty economically successful in many communities/cultures, and for the most part (certain distinctive features aside) look pretty much like non-Jews despite dressing/speaking/eating/praying differently. All that adds up to being viewed as a threat and an easy target when you want to blame a group for things going wrong.

[backyard sylph]

When I was a child in the 70s, I'd sometimes see a person, a family friend or other, with numbers tattooed on their arm. Mom told me not to ask them about it; if they wanted to talk about it, they would. I have a dim shallow memory of a man telling me about how he got tattooed, and a little of what it was like to live in that world, and survive it.

Suppose I were to have said to him, "Oh, you just need the love of Jesus to wash it all away." The absolute implication of that is that if he were already Christian, he wouldn't have been in that situation. A person couldn't see it another way, from my point of view. It's a kind of blame, isn't it? AND I JUST DON'T THINK THAT IS "CHRIST-LIKE."

[HurricaneBells]

On 04/07/2017 at 6:53 AM, Dubiousclaire said:

I am sure if they wanted to convert at any time in their life, they could take it upon themselves. It's no one else's business. 

Aint that the  truth! If i wanted religion, i would go find it... and so would the rest of the heathens of the world. The Duggars - the answer to the question nobody bloody asked!