Jinger/Jeremy: Not as Interesting as Jingerbread

[SorenaJ]

I don't find America being "the worst country ever". It's in the top half, probably, but damn, there are so many issues that needs to be dealt with. I would make a list, but don't think I can count that far. 

[nolongerIFBx]

On 3/29/2017 at 6:43 AM, AlwaysExcited said:

If IBLP leaders allowed their followers to enter secular mental health treatment, IBLP would fall apart in no time. 

First, for many IBLP people struggling with "sin" of anxiety and depression, religion IS the problem not a solution. IBLP is all about pressure, stress, fear and unreachable standards, that are claimed to come from God Himself. Perfect breeding ground for mental disorders. And healing is only possible if you stop believing crap your cult says. 
Second, all the abuse going on behind curtains. Who knows what could come up if you let an IBLP member alone with therapist. Mental health professionals are mandatory reporters, aren't they? 

To the bolded- you are so absolutely right.

[Coconut Flan]

This is a good spot to say this again.  If you are going to bold something in a quote, please snip the quote to that portion.  We are trying to get people to please snip quotes.  So please keep that in mind.  Also if yours is one of a string of general comments, you don't need to quote anything. 

 

[LilMissMetaphor]

23 hours ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I agree with you if Jeremy was meaning prayer can help those who are depressed due to feeling guilty then I can understand what he's saying but as he hasn't said anything about seeking medical help if you need it he isn't helping those who have severe depression.

 

I was surprised that people were reacting so strongly because I just thought that Jeremy was sort of (literally) preaching to the choir.  I mean, he surely can't imagine atheists would benefit from prayer to a God they didn't believe in, right? So when I read his comments I  assumed that he meant that a Christian (or even only a very specific type of Christian, because lots of Christians don't think antidepressant meds are the devil, same as dancing or premarital sex or what have you), could benefit from examining their spiritual life to see whether or not they have sin they might need to expiate, etc.

 

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I was surprised that people were reacting so strongly because I just thought that Jeremy was sort of (literally) preaching to the choir.  I mean, he surely can't imagine atheists would benefit from prayer to a God they didn't believe in, right? So when I read his comments I  assumed that he meant that a Christian (or even only a very specific type of Christian, because lots of Christians don't think antidepressant meds are the devil, same as dancing or premarital sex or what have you), could benefit from examining their spiritual life to see whether or not they have sin they might need to expiate, etc.

I'm not seeing how that would make what he said any better? Even if he's only speaking to a specific kind of Christian, he's perpetuating an extremely harmful belief, contributing to the stigmatization of mental illness, shaming people into not seeking help they may desperately need, and by extension empowering those specific Christians to spread misinformation or even to block others around them from getting help.

[LilMissMetaphor]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

I'm not seeing how that would make what he said any better? Even if he's only speaking to a specific kind of Christian, he's perpetuating an extremely harmful belief, contributing to the stigmatization of mental illness, shaming people into not seeking help they may desperately need, and by extension empowering those specific Christians to spread misinformation or even to block others around them from getting help.

I was going to ask if there still *IS* stigmatization of mental illness...and I'm guessing that it's very much dependent on culture.  Where I live, it's really not a thing to admit you need help for a mental illness any more than you would for a physical one.  But, considering it, you're right that if people are stupid enough to believe him, they might perpetuate the myth that all you need is love...or vitamins...or confessions of sin.

People are stupid, after all.

[singsingsing]

32 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I was going to ask if there still *IS* stigmatization of mental illness...and I'm guessing that it's very much dependent on culture.  Where I live, it's really not a thing to admit you need help for a mental illness any more than you would for a physical one.  

Where do you live? Have you ever personally suffered from mental illness?

Yes, there is still most definitely a stigmatization of mental illness. I'm personally not aware of any place on earth where the stigmatization of mental illness is not still a serious issue (for individuals and for communities). People like Jeremy are not helping. At all. 

[mpheels]

I do think another reason for fundie fear/dislike of secular therapy is mandatory reporting laws. There are a lot of fundie practices that would result in a call to the police and/or social services if a responsible professional heard about them. The same applies to secular education and medical care. Can you imagine what a kindergarten teacher would do if they heard a kid talking about blanket training?

[scoutsadie]

I just want to say that you guys are fierce and brilliant and brave and awesome and you rock. Thank you.

(And yes, @singsingsing, please share PM Dreamboat with us. It's kind of mean to keep him all to yourself. kthxbai)

[Carm_88]

 I also feel that part of the problem with fundies is that they are taught to suppress feelings. They're only supposed to be happy and joyful. That has to be tough. So sometimes I think that they're too numb to deal with a lot of emotions or even know what they are feeling.

[nickelodeon]

1 hour ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I was surprised that people were reacting so strongly because I just thought that Jeremy was sort of (literally) preaching to the choir.  I mean, he surely can't imagine atheists would benefit from prayer to a God they didn't believe in, right? So when I read his comments I  assumed that he meant that a Christian (or even only a very specific type of Christian, because lots of Christians don't think antidepressant meds are the devil, same as dancing or premarital sex or what have you), could benefit from examining their spiritual life to see whether or not they have sin they might need to expiate, etc.

 

You'd think, but this was actually a video posted to Grace Church's pregnancy center, a ministry targeted at people who aren't members of Jeremy's church - namely "women who find themselves in a crisis because of an unplanned pregnancy". Non-Christian (or not "the right type of" Christian) women are very much the projected audience here.

[send*the*ferrets]

Before I attended therapy, I thought they would tell you "you are making shit choices and that's why your life sucks, stop doing that." But they really don't. It's a lot of accepting your feelings, soul searching, finding yourself... things that a fundie woman would NOT be allowed to do. If she goes to her minister he can tell her that he knows the perfect grandma to help with laundry and just keep sweet. A secular therapist might encourage independence. When I went to therapy, it actually was funded by the Ebil Catholic Chuch (bc I was BROKE! Ha) but the therapist made it clear she was not a part of the church and was free to counsel on things apart from the church (divorce, etc). 

[Lyle Lanley]

6 hours ago, nickelodeon said:

I think that what sets Jeremy apart from other counselors who use prayer/meditation/mantras as part of therapy is that Jeremy identifies depression as caused by your own sin. Which suggests that good people don't get depressed, and if you're depressed then you've done something evil and need to pray for mercy. Which is a pretty cruel message to preach to suffering people.

Jeremy is a snake oil salesman and not a very good one at that. I managed to scam more people in a 22 minute episode than Jeremy has during his entire preaching career. I didn't have to seek out a pretty Duggar daughter to have on my arm either!

Vuolo is going to get his comeuppance in some shape or form. I suggest that he avoid North Haverbrook though.

[LilMissMetaphor]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

Where do you live? Have you ever personally suffered from mental illness?

Yes, there is still most definitely a stigmatization of mental illness. I'm personally not aware of any place on earth where the stigmatization of mental illness is not still a serious issue (for individuals and for communities). People like Jeremy are not helping. At all. 

I live where this campaign http://letstalk.bell.ca/en/ is all over the place.  I didn't say it wasn't a serious issue, I said that people *here*, in my community, seem to be very open about it and not trying to sweep things under the rug. And no, Jeremy's not helping, but it's not as if he's Tom Cruise. 

Quote

 

Bell Let’s Talk Day once again drew support from Canada’s most prominent leaders including Governor General David Johnston and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as well as the Royal family with tweets from the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge Will and Kate and Prince Harry. Prime Minister Trudeau also joined in on a live Twitter chat with Clara and Bell Let’s Talk spokesperson Marie-Soleil Dion to share his perspectives on mental health.

The scope of engagement in Bell Let’s Talk Day has become truly remarkable. Political party leaders, members of Parliament, provincial and territorial premiers and ministers, mayors and councillors, Olympians, professional sports teams and players in Canada and the US, major corporations and a broad range of the most high-profile Canadian, US and global entertainers and other celebrities continue to embrace the anti-stigma cause.

 

 

38 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

You'd think, but this was actually a video posted to Grace Church's pregnancy center, a ministry targeted at people who aren't members of Jeremy's church - namely "women who find themselves in a crisis because of an unplanned pregnancy". Non-Christian (or not "the right type of" Christian) women are very much the projected audience here.

Yeah, then I don't know what he thought he was hoping to accomplish.        

[NakedKnees]

15 minutes ago, Lyle Lanley said:

Jeremy is a snake oil salesman and not a very good one at that. I managed to scam more people in a 22 minute episode than Jeremy has during his entire preaching career. I didn't have to seek out a pretty Duggar daughter to have on my arm either!

Vuolo is going to get his comeuppance in some shape or form. I suggest that he avoid North Haverbrook though.

I LOVE coming across your posts. You rock.

Trying to avoid quoting too much  ... but regarding the USA being the best/worst- YAY American Exceptionalism! It absolutely goes both ways.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

2 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I was surprised that people were reacting so strongly because I just thought that Jeremy was sort of (literally) preaching to the choir.  I mean, he surely can't imagine atheists would benefit from prayer to a God they didn't believe in, right? So when I read his comments I  assumed that he meant that a Christian (or even only a very specific type of Christian, because lots of Christians don't think antidepressant meds are the devil, same as dancing or premarital sex or what have you), could benefit from examining their spiritual life to see whether or not they have sin they might need to expiate, etc.

While he was preaching to the choir, I think he also believes that atheists in general need God and prayer. And I'm pretty sure that most fundy Christians  think that unless you think JUST LIKE THEM you are wrong and are going to burn in hell. So I firmly believe he was talking to everyone, Christian, Atheist, Catholic, Methodist, Mormon, Baptist what ever your denomination, that you should listen to him and do as he directs. 

[SweetFellowshipper]

4 hours ago, nausicaa said:

We have the most hate crimes, most police brutality, and most racism? Do you have any sources to back that up? 

We certainly have serious problems with all of those things, but I find it naive, and frankly pretty insular, to think there are not regions in the world with massive problems with these issues. As far as police brutality goes, Sudan, China, Myanmar, and North Korea all come to mind. 

I find the "America is the worst country ever!" thinking is similar in approach and philosophy to the "America is the best country ever!" thinking. That is, it's intellectually lazy, insular, and weirdly self-aggrandizing. 

Wow, pretty unnecessarily combative for someone who didn't seem to read my comment thoroughly. I specifically used the qualifier "some of the" preceding the entire list (as in some of the most racism, and some of the highest numbers of hate crimes), referenced our relative wealth in comparison to how our citizens thrive, and also concluded with "any developed nation." None of your examples (North Korea? Really?) were developed nations or have anything close to our relative overall privilege as a nation, so they only further my point. Nor did I say anything approaching 'America is the worst country ever!,' that's a highly reductive version of my stated perspective and something you put in my/others' mouths. However, it may very well be the most developed nation that treats its citizens most poorly and in which there is the most continuous systemic racism. It's definitely ironic that there is such a high premium on patriotism & exceptionalism in a country that really performs quite poorly in a variety of ways, again, *in comparison to other developed countries.*

And yes, we have the highest rate of police brutality in the developed world. That is statistically inarguable.  Police kill our citizens at exponentially higher rates than in other developed countries. China, which you mentioned, absolutely has a problem with police brutality, but rates of murders by police are lower there than here. 

[PainfullyAware]

I'm not sure where you are in Canada but, as a fellow Canadian, I can't say I personally feel like my community is free of stigma against mental illness, regardless of Bell's Let's Talk campaign. Granted, I think it's much more subtle than it used to be. It's definitely not kosher to openly say you think someone is faking their depression to get off work or whatever.

But as a culture we equate success with productive work and individual motivation. Asking for help, taking time off, taking medication, even trying to have some work/life balance, is often considered weakness. People get a lot of "just think positive" or "don't indulge your negative feelings" or "pull it together and stay focused", as if that would treat mental illness. It's easy to internalize those messages and feel like having mental illness makes you a failure. 

When society praises people for getting the support they need as an act of strength rather than weakness (and not just lip service but openly discussed in workplaces and around dinner tables), then I think we'll have overcome stigma.

[singsingsing]

18 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I live where this campaign http://letstalk.bell.ca/en/ is all over the place.  I didn't say it wasn't a serious issue, I said that people *here*, in my community, seem to be very open about it and not trying to sweep things under the rug. And no, Jeremy's not helping, but it's not as if he's Tom Cruise. 

Bell's 'Let's Talk' campaign (which has its own issues) hasn't even come close to erasing the stigma of mental illness. I'm glad you can take such a blase attitude toward this, but for many people it's extraordinarily destructive and even deadly, not to mention the immeasurable social and financial toll on society in general. Who cares if he's not Tom Cruise? He has a platform, and he's using it to spread destructive and potentially life threatening misinformation.

[Hmmm_idolatry]

Based on the fact that the Duggars chose NOT to send their son to a legitimate mental therapist after he sexually abused their other children, I think it's safe to say that fundies absolutely see mental illness through stigmatized eyes.  It's also not difficult for me to imagine that if (God forbid) any of them ever encountered serious depression, they'd blame Satan or weakness in the person, or some other bullshit.  It's very disappointing to see Jeremy going along with this view but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@Carm_88 I think you hit a big nail on the head. Especially for the women who must keep sweet and be joyfully available to their husbands whenever HE wants.  Women are not allowed to have any opinion or say in their lives they are under the control of their fathers and then their husbands and father and his father.  I think this is why MEchelle is so checked out, she's  probably not on any drugs but I'm guessing she's just shut down to protect herself from the stress of all those damn kids and having no control over her family her body her life. 

Fundys more than any other variation of faith have it the hardest, no matter what religion your are a zealot for, they have stressful lives of poverty, too many kids lack of education and options and then tod they are horrible if they have trouble dealing with that stress.  Then God forbid one of them is actually mentally ill, say bipolar, schizophrenic or something serious like this what do these people do? Does the family just throw them on the street or do they believe in psychiatric care for these conditions? 

[Jilli]

42 minutes ago, LilMissMetaphor said:And no, Jeremy's not helping, but it's not as if he's Tom Cruise. 

   

As someone who used to look to the evangelical culture to figure out what was wrong with me I personally find Jeremy far more dangerous, at least for people like me. Jeremy sounds like a guy sure of himself. Confident, attractive(were talking strictly appearance here), young.He has the way to make you stop suffering without even addressing the real problem. He doesn't understand it. Most people know Tom Cruise isn't a good resource on the subject.

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I'm not seeing how that would make what he said any better? Even if he's only speaking to a specific kind of Christian, he's perpetuating an extremely harmful belief, contributing to the stigmatization of mental illness, shaming people into not seeking help they may desperately need, and by extension empowering those specific Christians to spread misinformation or even to block others around them from getting help.

And it's bad for the community he's preaching to. Imagine if Josh got proper therapy. Imagine if the girls he attacked saw a psychiatric professional who specialized in trauma and abuse, and found healthy ways to cope and move forward. Imagine if Michelle saw a proper shrink after her laundry room breakdown and decided to limit how many kids she was having. Imagine if Teri Maxwell got real treatment for her severe depression.

So many lives are stunted and wasted because of the shit Jeremy spouts.

[nausicaa]

54 minutes ago, SweetFellowshipper said:

Wow, pretty unnecessarily combative for someone who didn't seem to read my comment thoroughly. I specifically used the qualifier "some of the" preceding the entire list (as in some of the most racism, and some of the highest numbers of hate crimes), referenced our relative wealth in comparison to how our citizens thrive, and also concluded with "any developed nation." None of your examples (North Korea? Really?) were developed nations or have anything close to our relative overall privilege as a nation, so they only further my point. Nor did I say anything approaching 'America is the worst country ever!,' that's a highly reductive version of my stated perspective and something you put in my/others' mouths. However, it may very well be the most developed nation that treats its citizens most poorly and in which there is the most continuous systemic racism. It's definitely ironic that there is such a high premium on patriotism & exceptionalism in a country that really performs quite poorly in a variety of ways, again, *in comparison to other developed countries.*

And yes, we have the highest rate of police brutality in the developed world. That is statistically inarguable.  Police kill our citizens at exponentially higher rates than in other developed countries. China, which you mentioned, absolutely has a problem with police brutality, but rates of murders by police are lower there than here. 

I can't explain this without being a grammar bitch, so here goes:

Your statement was " being I think the fact that we are the richest country in the world and simultaneously have some of the worst access to health care, worst maternity leave policies, most hate crimes, most police brutality, most racism..."

It wasn't clear that "some of the" applied to all of the statements in the list, since "some of the most hate crimes" and "some of the most police brutality," didn't make sense grammatically, so "some of" seemed to only modify the first item in the list. If you meant "some of" to apply to all, then I apologize, and actually agree with most of your statement.

All right, ridiculous fastidiousness aside:

I do agree that the high levels of blind patriotism are at odds with our poor scores on several metrics. And in terms of developed countries, we have serious issues with police brutality.

However, I do think comparisons to western Europe are not always accurate because it does not take into account the very different cultures and situations the respective countries are dealing with. Georgiana gave a good example above. Same with hate crimes and racism. I'm not sure a place like Iceland, for instance, is a fair comparison in terms of racial tensions, since 93% of the population is the same race. And in countries in which previously homogeneous populations are dealing with an influx of racially and religiously diverse immigrants, well...things aren't always going so well.

This is just anecdotal, but in my experience, there is deep anti-Semitism and racism that just manifests in different ways in other developed countries (I'm not just thinking of Europe, but also Japan). I think the assertion that we have the most continuous systemic racism is debatable (which is tragic, because we do have huge problems with racism in the United States).

[Lyle Lanley]

1 hour ago, NakedKnees said:

I LOVE coming across your posts. You rock.

Trying to avoid quoting too much  ... but regarding the USA being the best/worst- YAY American Exceptionalism! It absolutely goes both ways.

Would you be interested in a genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail?

/novelty account hat off

I've predicted Joshley 2.0 from Jeremy since the courtship emerged. Jeremy. So much self righteousness, so much wow. I await Jeremy "Wine is okay but antidepressants are not!" Vuolo's downfall.