The Botkinettes have surfaced and they're giving relationship advice again!

[formergothardite]

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There is nothing a victim can do to “deserve” abuse, and if she fails to stop a crime being committed against her, it’s never “her fault.”

This is good, but they start the next sentence with 

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 However, 

Which means that they are going to dive into why it is the woman's fault. 

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If our knowledge of the Scriptures primarily consists of some vague or misapplied concepts about forgiving, overlooking offenses, covering sin, obeying authorities, not gossiping, and having a gentle and quiet spirit,

Are they just going to pretend none of their past teachings happened?

And now they move into victim blaming Emily.

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The failure to confront men’s over-steppings at the beginning is often the first inch that we give. Perhaps we are flattered by a man’s attentions and allow them… or perhaps in discomfort or fear we deflect them in a way that sounds as little like “no” as possible – we turn it into a joke, we laugh, we change the subject, we try to ease out of the situation in a way that won’t make things uncomfortable.

 

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If Emily had rebuked Bryan the very first time he pushed his limits, and he had laughed her off and persisted, the right thing for her to do would have been to remove herself from danger, and remove him from temptation that he obviously could not handle. She should not have kept being available to him to keep sinning against her like this.

 

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she needed to “cry out,” a principle we find in Deut. 22:23-27. 

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 However, many women also refrain from screaming during date-rape situations because they simply think that would seem ridiculous and over-the-top… and then press charges afterward because they do believe what happened was a crime. The desire to not want to make a scene is common, but if we believe rape is a crime, we must treat it as such at every stage, and be preparing ourselves to respond as aggressively and decisively as if we saw another woman being assaulted or raped.

 

[seraaa]

13 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

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 However, many women also refrain from screaming during date-rape situations because they simply think that would seem ridiculous and over-the-top… and then press charges afterward because they do believe what happened was a crime. The desire to not want to make a scene is common, but if we believe rape is a crime, we must treat it as such at every stage, and be preparing ourselves to respond as aggressively and decisively as if we saw another woman being assaulted or raped.

 

It is...not always possible to summon up an aggressive reaction in these scenarios. It's just not.

[Columbia]

“In response to the deluge of sexual abuse and harassment reports, it’s astonishing to hear so many voices – even from the feminist camp – implying that we can’t ask or expect a woman to do something that would be hard or require personal sacrifice. “She couldn’t have refused him… she might have lost her job!” “She couldn’t have told anyone; she knew a previous woman had told someone and gotten in trouble.” “She couldn’t have fought back; she had so much to lose here.”

Of course, we must sympathize with these women’s pain, fear, and prospective loss. Saying no or speaking up can cost a woman everything, and it has for many brave silence-breakers. But we also have to realize that statements like this send a message to young women: Doing the Right Thing is what you do when it’s not hard, when it’s not scary, and when there’s no danger that you’ll lose anything.”

 

Spoken like two women who have never lived in fear of homelessness or losing a job. They don’t even mention fear of retaliation. 

[seraaa]

16 minutes ago, Columbia said:

“In response to the deluge of sexual abuse and harassment reports, it’s astonishing to hear so many voices – even from the feminist camp – implying that we can’t ask or expect a woman to do something that would be hard or require personal sacrifice. “She couldn’t have refused him… she might have lost her job!” “She couldn’t have told anyone; she knew a previous woman had told someone and gotten in trouble.” “She couldn’t have fought back; she had so much to lose here.”

Of course, we must sympathize with these women’s pain, fear, and prospective loss. Saying no or speaking up can cost a woman everything, and it has for many brave silence-breakers. But we also have to realize that statements like this send a message to young women: Doing the Right Thing is what you do when it’s not hard, when it’s not scary, and when there’s no danger that you’ll lose anything.”

 

Spoken like two women who have never lived in fear of homelessness or losing a job. They don’t even mention fear of retaliation. 

This makes me so mad. Unless you've walked in somebody's shoes, you can't know what it means for them to speak out. You can't know what the emotional and material cost would be. 

It is very, very good that our society is moving towards a culture of breaking the silence and taboo around sexual assault. Everyone who has worked in this field or has spoken up is so brave. Still, no individual woman is under an obligation to react in any prescribed way to an assault or harassment. And - the key point - we must all keep pushing for the environment to change so that nobody feels they are losing by speaking up.

[formergothardite]

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An inappropriate or dangerous overture comes like a bolt from the blue, and suddenly we’re having to make split-second decisions under high stakes, intense adrenaline, and sometimes tonic immobility (the freezing response.) Will I or won’t I allow this? What should I say? What should I do? Where can I run? Is it time to go for my Glock 43? How do you do a stomp kick again? Why don’t I have a gun??

Yeah, this is all victim blaming. 

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When we realize that being wise  and wary enough to avoid danger sometimes means choosing not to exercise the full extent of our rights to go where we want, when we want, with whom we want, it can be tempting to say, “But that isn’t fair!” or “But their sin isn’t my responsibility

So just sit at home with Daddy and hope the sexual predator isn't a family member. 

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This isn’t about purity-culture guilt-trips, ladies 

Yes it fucking is. 

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This may be a hard concept to embrace, for those of us who grew up with a more letter-of-the-law approach to boundaries. 

They really are just going to pretend all their past work didn't happen. 

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We can’t tell you what your specific boundary lines should be,

Didn't they write an entire book about boundaries with guys?

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Bathsheba – perhaps in awe of David, perhaps in desire to please him, perhaps in fear of disobeying him, perhaps trusting that he knew best – ultimately abetted him in making the worst mistake of his life. 

Yes, she "helped" him make the worst mistake of his life. Let's blame the woman. 

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or that they have strange misogynistic views,

That would be their father. 

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it’s worth remembering three things – that the situations that do go well (we know of many) tend to go quietly un-publicized;

That is called covering up church abuse.

 

[seraaa]

5 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

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Bathsheba – perhaps in awe of David, perhaps in desire to please him, perhaps in fear of disobeying him, perhaps trusting that he knew best – ultimately abetted him in making the worst mistake of his life. 

 

It was Bathsheba's fault, because it wasn't like David was in a significant position of power over her and possessed all of the leverage , or anything. 

*screams into the void*

[Columbia]

15 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

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it’s worth remembering three things – that the situations that do go well (we know of many) tend to go quietly un-publicized;

That is called covering up church abuse.

What on earth is going on at Christ the King? All of Audri's retweets about spiritual abuse and unsafe churches have made me wonder, but this really convinces me that the Botkins' church in their backyard is not a safe place.

[CyborgKin]

Part 3:

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Sometimes the biggest challenge we’re up against in a harassment or assault situation is simply that we were not ready for it, in a practical sense. An inappropriate or dangerous overture comes like a bolt from the blue, and suddenly we’re having to make split-second decisions under high stakes, intense adrenaline, and sometimes tonic immobility (the freezing response.) Will I or won’t I allow this? What should I say? What should I do? Where can I run? Is it time to go for my Glock 43? How do you do a stomp kick again? Why don’t I have a gun??

By the way, remember to check out TRex Arms!

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When we realize that being wise  and wary enough to avoid danger sometimes means choosing not to exercise the full extent of our rights to go where we want, when we want, with whom we want, it can be tempting to say, “But that isn’t fair!” or “But their sin isn’t my responsibility!” And both are true. But if we love wisdom, hate evil, and value our safety as much as God does, we have to be willing to let the reality of other people’s sin change how we approach certain areas of life. 

Because we are all free to change how we approach those certain areas of life.  Following is a list of things we've changed about our lives:

•  

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The Lord wants us to take the dangers of other people’s sin seriously – even to the point of sometimes choosing to forgo our personal rights (or things that would technically be “lawful” for us), to do what is most wise, prudent, helpful, loving, and up-building, for ourselves and for others.

Consult the list above for our examples of personal sacrifices we as individuals and adults have chosen to make.

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Decide before you’re in an emotionally volatile situation what you will and will not allow in the way of physical contact, one-on-one time, verbal affection, emotional bonding, etc.

We won't clarify whether we're talking about a business situation, a friendship or family interaction, or courtship dating like average single adult women do, because that would just confuse people.

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This isn’t about purity-culture guilt-trips, ladies – it’s about recognizing what things are important enough to God to protect from real danger, and deciding how we personally are going to do that. Maintaining the heart of the matter and the real end goal is key: What is it we’re really trying to protect? What is it that really threatens it? What would actually be the best way to avoid that kind of thing? This will also mean being at peace with the fact that these boundaries will need to look different for all of us; if we’re honest with ourselves about our own boundary needs, we’ll see that another woman’s rules might not do the job for us.

That also conveniently excuses us from giving any specifics or actually answering the questions we posed.  Therefore we don't have to mention any of the things we (and our family culture) value, such as purity.

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This may be a hard concept to embrace, for those of us who grew up with a more letter-of-the-law approach to boundaries. Boundaries are often approached as external regulations that would themselves produce holiness – or worse yet, as holiness itself.

Those of us meaning some of you readers, not us specifically or anyone we know.

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Sometimes they’re focused around an end goal that isn’t primarily holiness (e.g. making our future marriages “more special,” or protecting ourselves from emotional pain),

We've heard some people value that.  Something about heart pieces?  But we have no clue where they'd get that idea.

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And if we know that we have a particular weakness for X, or that we lose a lot of stability and control in situations like Y, even if these things are not sins, they may be fuel or “provision” for our flesh, and we need to be willing to remove them from our life for now.

Giving anything personal or specific would only confuse people though.

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We can’t tell you what your specific boundary lines should be, but we will say that a lot of unnecessary pain and regret is avoided by keeping a distance from danger zones. Making restrictions for being around certain people alone, or allowing certain kinds of physical contact, or going to certain parts of town alone at night.

If you change your life to avoid going anywhere abusers might be, you win!  Just stay away from Bad Parts of Town and that'll prevent a lot of problems!

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Your boyfriend is using emotional pressure and guilt-manipulation to make things go faster than you think is right or wise.

The boyfriend we've always told you is your right and decision to have.  It's not like we ever suggested sticking to closely supervised courtship of a guy very closely vetted by your father.

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Freezing is not a sin, or a sign of weakness; it’s part of the body’s “defense cascade,” and we should expect to encounter it. But it’s also something that can be overcome.

Soldiers train to be able to control freezing under stress, and we can too

And it's your responsibility to train like a solder.  To not fulfill that responsibility would be sinful.

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we do strongly recommend that every woman back up her resolve to fight evil with some additional force (even if all she can get hold of is a tent peg or a mill stone)

Haha, Bible jokes!

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Yes, creeps abound in dark alleys and parking lots, and hopefully we’re watching out for those. But according to current statistics, the majority of sexual attacks aren’t perpetrated by strangers out on the streets; they’re perpetrated by friends and relatives, and in the young woman’s home or apartment. The lesson to be learned here is that the biggest danger for us isn’t in dangerous parts of town; it’s in dangerous relationships.

Surprise, we actually know this despite our earlier stress on staying out of dangerous parts of town. 

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And while it’s natural to try to sort the people we interact with into categories of “safe to trust” and “not safe to trust,” that’s ultimately a simplistic and dangerous way to approach these relationships. 

Trust no one ever, not even those wise counsellors we mentioned earlier.

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Specifically, have good relationships and communication with wise, mature people who could help you. 

Yeah, those.  Always be on your guard against these people who you're giving a place of responsibility in your life.  (We're not bothering to mention that all these people have to be approved by your parents, that should go without saying.)

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For those who have godly, involved parents (and especially for those readers who may be younger)

We waited until now to consider that this might not be the case for all.

We said we were talking about adult women but we don't see any need to clarify whether we mean younger adult women or teens.  Or whether we mean legal adults or if we see teens as young adults.

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(If, as you’re getting to know your elders, you discover that they aren’t really interested in speaking into your life, or that they have strange misogynistic views, or that one of them has a weakness for young women like you… those are really good things to find out before you’re in an emergency situation.)

Eww, strange misogynists.  We don't want anything to do with them!

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The church at large is still learning how to handle abuse, and with all the reports of churches handling abuse catastrophically, it’s worth remembering three things – that the situations that do go well (we know of many) tend to go quietly un-publicized; that, while individual churches can be bad, God’s design and instruction for church or for elders is not bad; and that the proper health and functioning of the church depends on all the members of the Body fulfilling their roles, including us.

#notallchurches the media are biased against us but ours is fine, the system is fine and works fine if you do your part and follow your role

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The force needed to fuel every line we draw, word we say, and bullet we shoot is not a sense of personal irritation or discomfort with what is happening – it’s a pure, molten, righteous anger that comes from loving what God loves and hating what God hates. With all the external safeguards we can put to use – boundaries, bodyguards, jujitsu, lead – we need to understand that this battle starts first of all in our own hearts. We start by being the kind of woman who sees evil the way God does.

We're not victim blaming, but you had better be ready to shoot people out of pure righteous molten anger, just in case.  And jujitsu is totally the right way to spell... "Jujutsu, also known in the West as Ju-Jitsu or Jiu-Jitsu, is a Japanese martial art and a method of close combat for defeating an armed and armored opponent in which one uses either a short weapon or none." anyhow we definitely advocate you go learn Japanese martial arts.
And you can all afford bodyguards or get your trustworthy brothers to guard your every move whenever you go out in public, right?  It's worked fine for us and hasn't prevented us from finding husbands.

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Though He gives us responsibility to be wise and cautious, and requires certain responses to the sin of others, we have to remember that the final outcome of every encounter is in His hands, and He does not require that we succeed in stopping the crime. Even the best defense plan can fail; boundaries can be forcibly crossed; words can be ignored; a strong support system can let us down; guns can jam; and we can be victims. 

So don't blame us if something bad happens to you.

I have to go but here's a preview for part 4:

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“Heed the mantra and never forget: Women. Have. Nothing. To. Gain. And. Everything. To Lose. By. Coming. forward.” 

-AMBER TAMBLYN

Her latest TV role (according to wikipedia) was playing Margaret Sanger   That's amusing cos Sanger's probably top of the Botkinette's list of evil feminists.

[Lurky]

I don't understand any of this.  Isn't the Botkinette brand that they are pure, wholesome SAHDs who would never have a boyfriend, only a father-approved no-touch Courtship?   How on earth can they give advice on what it's like for women in these scenarios?

And more importantly, as everyone else has said, how can they have the gall to do this, without acknowledging the abuse in the church movement they were the poster children of??  It's just infuriating, and I'd love to know what their cousin Katie thinks of this.

(I love Katie Botkin's writing, but she hasn't blogged for a while - seems like she's very busy and successful from her twitter though.  https://kbotkin.com/)

[Howl]

45 minutes ago, Lurky said:

(I love Katie Botkin's writing, but she hasn't blogged for a while - seems like she's very busy and successful from her twitter though.  https://kbotkin.com/)

Ditto!  She mentions on the "about" section of her blog that she is writing a novel about homeschooling!  I'd definitely read that.  She's an excellent and thoughtful writer.

[Botkinetti]

The Botkinettes lack of knowledge has never stopped them from giving advice before. Their writing reeks of sanctimonious bullshit. They consider themselves experts on every subject. They are desperate to still be seen as relevant but should instead be seen as a cautionary tale to anyone still buying into the SAHD movement.

Even pretty princesses will age. Not everyone will find a husband. Your world can fall apart around you and you might be left with no resources to change your life. 

[formergothardite]

The Botkins keep comparing Abigail and Bathsheba and saying that Bathsheba should have been like Abigail. They were totally different situations. Bathsheba was in a situation where the king sent guards to her house to bring her to him. Fighting back would have almost certainly not ended well for her. We don't know much about Bathsheba, except that she was beautiful and mourned her husband after David had him killed. 

Abigail, was known for being very clever. When she found out her husband had pissed off David and he was planning on murdering them all, she showed up with gifts, flattered him and manipulated his emotions so he wouldn't kill them. She also didn't have  a great deal of choice in marrying him after her husband died. 

You really can't act like the situations are equal. 

 

[formergothardite]

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implying that we can’t ask or expect a woman to do something that would be hard or require personal sacrifice. “She couldn’t have refused him… she might have lost her job!” “She couldn’t have told anyone; she knew a previous woman had told someone and gotten in trouble.” “She couldn’t have fought back; she had so much to lose here.”

The Botkins know nothing about having their lives destroyed by speaking out. Can they even fathom what it would be like for a single mother to speak out against her boss and lose her job? Maybe lose her house and possibly lose her children? No, they can't. It is clear that this six part series is nothing but victim blaming. 

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This message might seem to ring out-of-tune with our culture of feminism, girl power, and “smashing the patriarchy,” but it’s really perfectly in line with the chief cause feminism gives women: “You can do whatever you personally want to do.” And this is where feminists, with whom we would agree on many issues relating to the need for respectful treatment of women, have really let women down – because as much as our individual concerns and preferences matter, they’re not our ultimate moral standard, and they don’t lead us to real strength. 

Let's blame the ebil feminists and not the patriarchal movement that says men have power because they have a penis. Daddy might not like it if we did that. 

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With all its promises of strength and liberation, feminism leaves women in the ultimate bondage, the bondage to their own natural sinful tendencies. Bondage to the fear that says, “I just can’t.” To the apathy that says, “It’s not worth it.” To the ambition that says, “It would be OK to trade my principles for success.” To the pragmatism that says, “What would it profit me if I think about my soul and lose the whole world?”

They are not going to touch the dangers of patriarchy with a ten foot pole. 

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(Not to mention the examples of men like Joseph – are we equal-opportunity enough to aspire to their courage and sacrifice, too?)

Look how open minded they are! 

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God’s virtuous woman, just like the ones He holds up as our examples, was a force to be reckoned with – a discerning, cool-headed, fearless, and unshakeable soldier of right.

What does God think women need all of these qualities for? Making better muffins?

 

Pay no attention to all the shit they have been peddling for years. 

 

[seraaa]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

This message might seem to ring out-of-tune with our culture of feminism, girl power, and “smashing the patriarchy,” but it’s really perfectly in line with the chief cause feminism gives women: “You can do whatever you personally want to do.”

Sure, that's one way of reductively representing the position espoused by one feminist perspective. But you can't read, idk,  Audre Lorde or Catherine Mackinnon or Silvia Federici and come away thinking that the central tenent and singular goal of feminism is "women should be able to do whatever they want, end of chapter". 

I'm going to take a guess and assume that the Botkins couldn't argue the shades of distinction between the different waves of feminism, or between socialist and liberal and radical feminism, or *insert any example here*

[Columbia]

2 hours ago, Lurky said:

I don't understand any of this.  Isn't the Botkinette brand that they are pure, wholesome SAHDs who would never have a boyfriend, only a father-approved no-touch Courtship?   How on earth can they give advice on what it's like for women in these scenarios?

I assumed that they’re trying to appeal to a broader fan base than the average SAHD, because the average SAHD would have no idea what having a boyfriend or an employer is like. I’d like to know how it sits with them that Jasmine is making waves all over Twitter, hanging out with Beth Moore, and writing for several online magazines. Especially since she basically disowned the SAHD lifestyle. Perhaps they’re trying to distance themselves from that brand so they can get their foot in the popular-Christian-women’s-issues-writer door. 

 

On on an unrelated note, they keep referencing Rachael Denhollander in their series. Since she’s trying very hard to take down SGM, I doubt she’d have a minute’s patience for these two who have helped prop up an equally damaging and dangerous church philosophy for years. 

[Howl]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

They are not going to touch the dangers of patriarchy with a ten foot pole. 

Did they discuss how toxic patriarchy left a generation of young women robbed of human agency, commanded to be meek, naive, ignorant and submissive to their father and all authority figures NO MATTER WHAT, leaving them voiceless and vulnerable to all types of abuse from fathers, siblings, relatives and any random authoritative seeming penis holder?And how that same toxic  patriarchy allows  abusers to deny the abuse and be believed, because "Godly" men?

Didn't think so. 

5 minutes ago, Columbia said:

Jasmine is making waves all over Twitter, hanging out with Beth Moore, and writing for several online magazines.

Is this Jasmsie nee Beauchamp? Can't remember her married name. I want to know more! 

[Tatar-tot]

Seriously - who gets relationship advice from 40 year old virgins?  

[Columbia]

3 minutes ago, Howl said:

Is this Jasmsie nee Beauchamp? Can't remember her married name. I want to know more! 

Jasmine née Baucham. She stated on her blog a month or so ago that she regretted not moving out and going to college when she was 18. She’s getting very popular in reformed circles. A lot of it, I’m sure, has to do with how well her father is known. 

jasminelholmes.com/

[seraaa]

1 hour ago, Columbia said:

Jasmine née Baucham. She stated on her blog a month or so ago that she regretted not moving out and going to college when she was 18. She’s getting very popular in reformed circles. A lot of it, I’m sure, has to do with how well her father is known. 

jasminelholmes.com/

For sure that would have made people aware of her, but she's also very smart and interesting in her own right, so I'm not surprised she's popular

[Lgirlrocks]

The last job I worked for was at a chick fil a. One of the managers, who was technically below me, sexual harassed me. At first it was almost daily. After I spoke up about it it happened less often but still accured. The GMs kept acting like it was a difference in personalities. There were other girls there that he harassed too. They never spoke up because they knew nothing would happen. That place was loaded with cameras so I easily could have sued and won. I wish I would have but I was just tired. Tired of the way I was being treated. Tired of him seeing me as a piece of ass. Tired of the hire ups not caring. Sometimes doing something about it isn’t enough.

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, Columbia said:

On on an unrelated note, they keep referencing Rachael Denhollander in their series. Since she’s trying very hard to take down SGM, I doubt she’d have a minute’s patience for these two who have helped prop up an equally damaging and dangerous church philosophy for years. 

No, I also doubt that Rachael Denhollander would have the patience for the Botkinettes or the other (former) patriarchal princesses who are now fangirling her, like Jasmine Baucham Holmes.

They don't miss a chance to kvell over Denhollander's statement about Christian guilt, repentance, and redemption to Nasser, but have remained utterly silent about the widespread, and well-documented, sexual abuse & misogyny in so-called Christian ministries, whether it's VF or SGM or Paige Patterson or John Piper. Guess they must think that if they don't mention it, it doesn't exist.

[smittykins]

4 hours ago, Columbia said:

Jasmine née Baucham. She stated on her blog a month or so ago that she regretted not moving out and going to college when she was 18. She’s getting very popular in reformed circles. A lot of it, I’m sure, has to do with how well her father is known. 

jasminelholmes.com/

I wonder what Daddy thinks about that, considering how in Return Of The Daughters, he was adamant about not sending his precious baby girl out into the big, bad world alone.

[seraaa]

6 hours ago, seraaa said:

Sure, that's one way of reductively representing the position espoused by one feminist perspective. But you can't read, idk,  Audre Lorde or Catherine Mackinnon or Silvia Federici and come away thinking that the central tenent and singular goal of feminism is "women should be able to do whatever they want, end of chapter". 

I'm going to take a guess and assume that the Botkins couldn't argue the shades of distinction between the different waves of feminism, or between socialist and liberal and radical feminism, or *insert any example here*

Quoting myself because this has been on my mind all day and I've just figured out what has been bugging me:They say: 

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...but it’s really perfectly in line with the chief cause feminism gives women: “You can do whatever you personally want to do.” And this is where feminists, with whom we would agree on many issues relating to the need for respectful treatment of women, have really let women down – because as much as our individual concerns and preferences matter, they’re not our ultimate moral standard, and they don’t lead us to real strength. 

 

Feminism is about the political, social and legal equality between all genders. Their problem is that they believe (their interpretation of) Biblical principles should be the final arbiter of behaviour, and that this is incompatible with a philosophy whose end goal they believe to be "doing whatever you want".

I think it throws up an interesting question. They see their Christianity as being incompatible with feminism, despite an overlap in certain positions. I would argue that Christianity or any other religion is not necessarily incompatible with it. 

It's possible to adhere to conservative beliefs and also hold a negative conceptions of rights - freedom from interference - which would mean accepting that others operate according to different behavioural and moral codes.  You might prefer that people act in a particular way and believe it to be better for them, but accept you can't compel them. You would prefer the society in which people are able to make their own free choice, with what that entails. What is fundamentally incompatible is Dominionism and classical liberalism. 

(This is disjointed and rambly, and I have undeveloped thoughts on the place of conservatism (and the rest of it) in all of this, but meh)

[older than allosaurs]

In case anyone was wondering, whatever else Jasmine may do or think, she is great at explaining (without referring to her) how Lori Alexander is a fool:

https://jasminelholmes.com/propaganda-biblical-womanhood/#more-562

 

4 minutes ago, seraaa said:

It's possible to adhere to a conservative beliefs and also hold a negative conceptions of rights - freedom from interference - which would mean accepting that others operate according to different behavioural and moral codes.  You might prefer that people act in a particular way and believe it to be better for them, but accept you can't compel them. You would prefer the society in which people are able to make their own free choice, with what that entails. What is fundamentally incompatible is Dominionism and classical liberalism. 

And taking (I think) this same idea from the feminist side, rather than reflexively saying that we should get to do some male-centric activity, we are free as feminists to question whether anybody should be doing it. I've often thought about that when reading suggestions for helping women rise higher in corporate capitalism.

[seraaa]

20 minutes ago, older than allosaurs said:

In case anyone was wondering, whatever else Jasmine may do or think, she is great at explaining (without referring to her) how Lori Alexander is a fool:

https://jasminelholmes.com/propaganda-biblical-womanhood/#more-562

 

And taking (I think) this same idea from the feminist side, rather than reflexively saying that we should get to do some male-centric activity, we are free as feminists to question whether anybody should be doing it. I've often thought about that when reading suggestions for helping women rise higher in corporate capitalism.

Yes! This reminds me of that Lorde quote about the futility of using the master's tools to dismantle the master's house (what an excellent line).

Hah, Jasmine's post is great