Seewalds 14- Baby can I hold you tonight?

[nastyhobbitses]

7 hours ago, Archer said:

Here's my perspective on it as someone who is transgender. I can't say all other transpeople feel this way, but most I know would agree with this:

It's totally fine to name your kid something that is "gendered" and use specific pronouns based on their biological sex. As a society (American at least, that's all I can attest to), it's really hard to get by with neutral pronouns. When someone is expecting or a baby is born, the first thing everyone wants to know is "is it a boy or a girl?", and you should be able to answer easily (unless we're in intersex territory, but that's a whole other discussion). You'd be 100% correct in saying the sex is male or female. Hopefully, as someone informed, you'd know that the sex isn't necessarily congruent with the gender, and that's something you'll discover as your child grows and finds themselves.

Like has been stated above, what the appropriate thing to do is to respect your child when they tell you they feel wrong in their body, help them discover how they identify, and change names/pronouns accordingly. And making sure that your child have "boy" and "girl" toys - all children can enjoy just about any toy.

One other thing I'd say is that gender reveal parties, while obviously a ton of fun and excitement for the families, bother the crap out of me. It just sets the whole family and world up for an expectation of something that may not come to fruition. I remember my parents telling me of their struggles to conceive, and my mom saying that she'd prayed and prayed I'd be a girl because she knew she'd only have one kid and that's what she wanted. I was their perfect miracle baby girl. And that made it very hard for me to feel comfortable letting them know that I had always felt like a boy because I didn't want to disappoint her. 

I always find it weird and ironic that parents-to-be say "oh, we don't care as long as the baby's healthy" when asked if they prefer a boy or a girl, but then when that baby comes and says "I feel more like a boy/girl", they flip out.

If I have kids, they'll probably be named and gendered (though not to the stereotypical extent of some) according to biological sex, but if they want to be something else (a boy, a girl, both, neither, something else entirely), you best believe I'd support them. I don't care what they are as long as they're healthy and happy.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

8 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

My grandson who is 3 is just as likely to say he's not his name. When you ask who he is he might be a favorite character or a fork lift. We're pretty sure he won't grow up to be a fork lift, but the rest is up for grabs.

I miss the time when my big one was 3 and would introduce herself as Daisy Duck, or the name of her favorite playground.

[Marly]

45 minutes ago, anotherone said:

Maybe not, if it is a boy.  If she has like 3 or 4 boys in a row then they will out of early childhood before a girl could be born and start being trained for servitude.  So the boys would be like 7 to 12 before the fifth, a girl, would be about 5 yrs old and start taking care of the 6th and 7th children. 

 

I've been thinking about this as well. I actually kind of hope they don't have girls for a long time. This way they can't transfer the care of the growing litter onto a daughter, and forces them to consider maybe not expending their brood too much because it actually requires a lot of care if you have to do it all by yourself, or it will make them reconsider the gender roles they believe in and actually have their boys help out with the kids and the house hold. And although I think children should never have the responsibility of taking care of their siblings, I think it would be helpful for fundy boys to get a taste of what taking care of a household actually entails.

[smallestneal]

7 hours ago, Archer said:

One other thing I'd say is that gender reveal parties, while obviously a ton of fun and excitement for the families, bother the crap out of me. It just sets the whole family and world up for an expectation of something that may not come to fruition. I remember my parents telling me of their struggles to conceive, and my mom saying that she'd prayed and prayed I'd be a girl because she knew she'd only have one kid and that's what she wanted. I was their perfect miracle baby girl. And that made it very hard for me to feel comfortable letting them know that I had always felt like a boy because I didn't want to disappoint her. 

I'm also trans, and while I snipped most of your post because I didn't have anything to add to that, I wanted to say I 100% agree with your whole post but especially this. I feel like there's a huge difference between "we chose this name/use these pronouns unless we're informed otherwise later by the kid" and "I want to have a girl, specifically, so we can wear pink and bows/have tea parties/talk about boys/etc," and I feel like gender reveal parties can sometimes be exactly that kind of thing. Like, if the parents cut the cake or whatever and it's blue, everyone's going to be talking about how the kid will be such a ladies man, and play football with his dad, and embody all of these masculine traits. It sets up parents w/expectations that, if we're being honest, will almost never be met. Most cis kids aren't walking gender stereotypes, either, and it could be pretty sad for the little guy who loves drawing and dancing if his parents don't let him engage with his passions, or give him the feeling that they aren't that supportive of his interests because he doesn't meet their gender expectations. 

Obviously not all parents who do gender reveals are like this, but there are people on my dad's side of the family and a few people I went to high school with who absolutely are, so I know they're out there. It's so sad, because they're imposing arbitrary limits on their kids that could potentially cause a lot of angst and stress later on. 

[SorenaJ]

For you the sex of the baby is just a small thing, until you got to know the baby. For Duggars, and other fundies, it's their entire world. 

I plan to give my (hypothetical, for now), baby a gender neutral name, and two middle names, one traditionally feminine and one traditionally masuciline. That way I'm covered, and they can get to choose. And I am nonbinary trans.

[VelociRapture]

10 hours ago, Archer said:

Here's my perspective on it as someone who is transgender. I can't say all other transpeople feel this way, but most I know would agree with this:

It's totally fine to name your kid something that is "gendered" and use specific pronouns based on their biological sex. As a society (American at least, that's all I can attest to), it's really hard to get by with neutral pronouns. When someone is expecting or a baby is born, the first thing everyone wants to know is "is it a boy or a girl?", and you should be able to answer easily (unless we're in intersex territory, but that's a whole other discussion). You'd be 100% correct in saying the sex is male or female. Hopefully, as someone informed, you'd know that the sex isn't necessarily congruent with the gender, and that's something you'll discover as your child grows and finds themselves.

Like has been stated above, what the appropriate thing to do is to respect your child when they tell you they feel wrong in their body, help them discover how they identify, and change names/pronouns accordingly. And making sure that your child have "boy" and "girl" toys - all children can enjoy just about any toy.

One other thing I'd say is that gender reveal parties, while obviously a ton of fun and excitement for the families, bother the crap out of me. It just sets the whole family and world up for an expectation of something that may not come to fruition. I remember my parents telling me of their struggles to conceive, and my mom saying that she'd prayed and prayed I'd be a girl because she knew she'd only have one kid and that's what she wanted. I was their perfect miracle baby girl. And that made it very hard for me to feel comfortable letting them know that I had always felt like a boy because I didn't want to disappoint her. 

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective and thoughts. Same with you @smallestnealand @SorenaJ! 

My brother is Transgender and came out publicly two years ago this spring - so I know a bit about all this thanks to him. I really appreciate when someone who is Transgender offers up information or talks about their own experience though. I feel like I always learn something new and it makes me a better big sister.  

And I agree about the gender reveals. I'm not going to tell anyone how to live or celebrate a new addition - but I personally didn't have a gender reveal for the reasons you mentioned. We took a picture of our dog posing with a chalkboard revealing our baby's sex for our families, but otherwise didn't make it a big deal. 

(My brother would likely agree with you about going based off biological sex until the child is old enough to express their gender as well.)

11 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

My grandson who is 3 is just as likely to say he's not his name. When you ask who he is he might be a favorite character or a fork lift. We're pretty sure he won't grow up to be a fork lift, but the rest is up for grabs.

Your grandson is the hero America needs right now.  

10 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I think parents need to keep an open mind and an even more open heart. You raise your child as whatever sex they are and hope that they do feel like they are in the right body. The most important thing is letting them know that you will love them no matter what they discover that they are. 

Exactly. It hasn't been an entirely smooth transition for my brother. My parents and grandparents have struggled the tiny bit to remember his new name and pronouns at times. And I think when he first came out to us that they had a bit of trouble accepting that the little girl they knew and loved is now a young man.

But they all love my brother without question and they just want him happy and healthy. And after almost two years they're all doing great at supporting him and loving him as he is... even my republican, Trump voting, former Marine father who now proudly captions photos of us on Facebook with "his daughters and son."

4 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

For you the sex of the baby is just a small thing, until you got to know the baby. For Duggars, and other fundies, it's their entire world. 

I plan to give my (hypothetical, for now), baby a gender neutral name, and two middle names, one traditionally feminine and one traditionally masuciline. That way I'm covered, and they can get to choose. And I am nonbinary trans.

I've never heard of an idea like this before - but that's actually a really cool idea! 

[Snarkle Motion]

Loving the gender debate. Is the baby watch thread officially starting? She's due next week right?

[SorenaJ]

10 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I've never heard of an idea like this before - but that's actually a really cool idea! 

Thanks. I just know how happy I've been that my (quite feminine) name has a gender neutral nickname, that I liked, so I didn't have to go out and find a whole new name. 

[Carm_88]

17 minutes ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Loving the gender debate. Is the baby watch thread officially starting? She's due next week right?

I'd say Baby Seewald watch 2017, is at least getting geared up. 

[front hugs > duggs]

I personally want desire to pop out a baby unicorn one day, but if a boy or girl comes out instead, I supposed I'll find a way to stifle my disappointment 

 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

10 hours ago, Archer said:

One other thing I'd say is that gender reveal parties, while obviously a ton of fun and excitement for the families, bother the crap out of me. It just sets the whole family and world up for an expectation of something that may not come to fruition. I remember my parents telling me of their struggles to conceive, and my mom saying that she'd prayed and prayed I'd be a girl because she knew she'd only have one kid and that's what she wanted. I was their perfect miracle baby girl. And that made it very hard for me to feel comfortable letting them know that I had always felt like a boy because I didn't want to disappoint her. 

I also feel like they do this even if the kid might not be trans. They create expectations on what the child will be like as a person based on Jender roles. I've seen so many of these parties with invites saying suff like 'Football or Fairies?' and 'Ballet or Basketball'. The child might be a CIS gender girl who likes to play basketball and hates ballet the same way the child might be a CIS gender boy who would rather do ballet than play basketball. I feel like the same people who have these parties are the people who'd hate it if their son wasn't interested in football and wanted to be a 'ballet fairy' and would force their daughters into pink frills even if they don't want to.

And goes without saying that they'd be shitty about it if their kid was trans.

[Carm_88]

I don't like gender reveal parties because they seem pointless. If you want to know what you're having find out but don't make a big thing out of it. Seems like a gift grab. But that's me. 

[VelociRapture]

42 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

I personally want desire to pop out a baby unicorn one day, but if a boy or girl comes out instead, I supposed I'll find a way to stifle my disappointment 

 

I told people who asked that we were going for a Velociraptor (because built in security system), but we'd settle for a human too.  I got some really priceless reactions out of that. 

-----

Jessa will spawn exactly two days after her due date. Baby will be male and he will weigh over 9 pounds. Jessa will spawn him at home like she did with Spurgeon. The name will either be as out there as Spurgeon or ridiculously normal (like Gabriel.) 

[Queen]

3 hours ago, smallestneal said:

I feel like there's a huge difference between "we chose this name/use these pronouns unless we're informed otherwise later by the kid" and "I want to have a girl, specifically, so we can wear pink and bows/have tea parties/talk about boys/etc," and I feel like gender reveal parties can sometimes be exactly that kind of thing. Like, if the parents cut the cake or whatever and it's blue, everyone's going to be talking about how the kid will be such a ladies man, and play football with his dad, and embody all of these masculine traits. It sets up parents w/expectations that, if we're being honest, will almost never be met. Most cis kids aren't walking gender stereotypes, either, and it could be pretty sad for the little guy who loves drawing and dancing if his parents don't let him engage with his passions, or give him the feeling that they aren't that supportive of his interests because he doesn't meet their gender expectations. 

Oh I hate it when people go all "I want a boy so I can play fotball/soccer with him" or "I want a girl so I can go shopping with her!".  Kids of any gender can play sports and shop for clothes, and I feel really bad for these people's kids because it is very likely they'll feel lots of pressure conforming to rigid gender roles. 

 

[nst]

31 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I told people who asked that we were going for a Velociraptor (because built in security system), but we'd settle for a human too.  I got some really priceless reactions out of that. 

-----

Jessa will spawn exactly two days after her due date. Baby will be male and he will weigh over 9 pounds. Jessa will spawn him at home like she did with Spurgeon. The name will either be as out there as Spurgeon or ridiculously normal (like Gabriel.) 

i really hope she is preparing spud for the arrival otherwise he will be sad and that kid is too cute to be sad 

[Archer]

I love all the support here. I live in Texas so, while I have more people support me than I ever thought possible, I'm in a less open-minded environment than I'd like. 

I just think it's sad how our society here/fundie society is so ruled by gender expectations. Have y'all ever watched gender reveal videos on youtube? I have out of gross fascination. But half the time you can see one of the parents is really disappointed, and I think that's so sad - sad that the baby's genitals can possibly mean so much to the parent and because that child may someday see the video and see that disappointment on their parent's face. That can be as damaging as it was for me to feel like I had to stay female for the sake of mine for so long.

Considering the number of children these fundie families have, there's no doubt that there's a transperson among at least one or two of them collectively, not to mention how many of them might be gay or bisexual. I can't even imagine how horrifying it would be to grow up in a family like that. At least I was never told that I'd go to hell for feeling that way. There's no way they could ever come out without being sent to some horrible camp to try to convert them.

 

[Bad Wolf]

I remember Josh and Anna preparing Mackie with a doll, teaching her to be gentle, etc. I wold guess Spuddy is getting the same preparation.

[Chickenbutt]

16 minutes ago, Archer said:

But half the time you can see one of the parents is really disappointed, and I think that's so sad - sad that the baby's genitals can possibly mean so much to the parent and because that child may someday see the video and see that disappointment on their parent's face.

My DIL is due to deliver in April. We were all hoping against hope for a boy. We are having another girl. My DIL cried at the ultrasound. We were all disappointed, but have come around and are happily preparing for another girl.

We wanted a boy to carry on our name. Our two boys are the last to pass on the name. People may not understand this, but it is important to Mr. Butt. Our youngest son has not had children yet and we tease him about being the last one able to carry on the name...no pressure there. It is all in good fun, but I can't say we wouldn't be disappointed.

So yes, in our case genitals matter. Not in the gender identity sense, but for an entirely different reason.

ETA: and there are no videos or gender reveal business

[front hugs > duggs]

52 minutes ago, Queen said:

Oh I hate it when people go all "I want a boy so I can play fotball/soccer with him" or "I want a girl so I can go shopping with her!".  Kids of any gender can play sports and shop for clothes, and I feel really bad for these people's kids because it is very likely they'll feel lots of pressure conforming to rigid gender roles. 

 

I kind of want a daughter (one day) to play soccer with! (Of course, if she hated soccer, I'd never force her to play). Most of you have dreams of your kids being president or supreme court justices, but I would be pretty proud if my daughter played for the US Women's National Soccer team and got paid EQUALLY/FAIRLY unlike the superstar women today.

Also @VelociRapture, our co-ed adult soccer team may or may not have Velociraptor in our team name...so I've always loved your name

[Jana'sHairScrunchie]

@Chickenbutt Is it a possibility that one of your granddaughters can carry on the name? My dad and his 2 brothers only have 2 girls between them and no other children, so I decided to gkeep our last name when I got married. Though I don't plan to have children, if I do someday, they will probably at least have a hyphenated last name. Not all hope is lost.

[karen77]

3 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

I kind of want a daughter (one day) to play soccer with! (Of course, if she hated soccer, I'd never force her to play). Most of you have dreams of your kids being president or supreme court justices, but I would be pretty proud if my daughter played for the US Women's National Soccer team and got paid EQUALLY/FAIRLY unlike the superstar women today.

Also @VelociRapture, our co-ed adult soccer team may or may not have Velociraptor in our team name...so I've always loved your name

YOu can hang out with my daughter, she wants to be a scientist and a professional soccer player!!! (she's 8 and dad plays soccer, not professionally, and I'm an engineer...go figure)

[Chickenbutt]

@Jana'sHairScrunchie (tagging thingie not working again) It is possible. We are a pretty traditional family, but you never know what will happen.

[lumpentheologie]

2 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

My DIL is due to deliver in April. We were all hoping against hope for a boy. We are having another girl. My DIL cried at the ultrasound. We were all disappointed, but have come around and are happily preparing for another girl.

We wanted a boy to carry on our name. Our two boys are the last to pass on the name. People may not understand this, but it is important to Mr. Butt. Our youngest son has not had children yet and we tease him about being the last one able to carry on the name...no pressure there. It is all in good fun, but I can't say we wouldn't be disappointed.

So yes, in our case genitals matter. Not in the gender identity sense, but for an entirely different reason.

ETA: and there are no videos or gender reveal business

Genitals aren't really related to carrying on a name any more than they are to wanting to play football or go shopping.  Just another social construct of gender, and one that seems pretty arbitrary to me. My boyfriend has his mother's last name, and I plan to pass on mine to at least some of my (hypothetical) children. My parents (and especially their parents) would never have seen that coming, but who knows what the world will be like by the time kids born now start considering having children of their own.   

It's sad to me that we so closely associate being a boy/girl with doing certain things that parents can get really disappointed if they're having the 'wrong' kind of baby.  If you really want your kid  to carry on your name/play football/go shopping with you then by all means express that to the kid and hope it affects their decisions -- don't just give up because 'only girls' or 'only boys' can do those things. 

[Chickenbutt]

Like I said, we are a pretty traditional family, but we never know what is going to happen in the future with the kids. We have no idea what they will like/do/embrace etc. But for the time being, we would like a grandson to carry on the name. If you see this a social construct of gender, then so be it. We see it as tradition and it fits our family.

As to gender roles, our girls play basketball and soccer. They are also taking piano lessons. They have previously taken dance class and hated it. So we stopped. We are not so traditional that we would deny our kids any experience that they want to try whether it be sports, shopping (which they both hate), music or art.

Every family is different and every family has things that are important to them regardless of social construct. Having said that, we would like a boy to carry on our name.

[Denim Jumper]

Some friends of mine recently had a gender reveal party; I didn't go, but they posted on FB a video of the moment of the reveal. They have 5 boys and tried for baby #6 with the near-desperate hope they would finally have a girl for baby #3... and 4... and 5... and 6. No doubt they will love that baby to pieces either way, but it was really uncomfortable to watch them their facial expressions when it turned out the baby #6 is a boy.