JonBenét Ramsey

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, Fascinated said:

@laPapessaGiovanna, you should be able to watch the specials on YouTube. 

I haven't finished watching them yet but I do wonder if the new investigators worked with the pre-conceived notion that it was a family member.  It has been discussed upthread, but I think their interpretation of the 911 tape is suspect.  I certainly couldn't decipher the words they were claiming to hear.  The 911 operator did not ever, at least in the interview that I watched, say that she heard those same words.  

If Burke did it, and knows he did it, why would he even agree to be interviewed by Dr. Phil?

It's being said that they knew in advance that CBS was going to point the finger at Burke and they wanted to get out in front of it and make him sympathetic - Dr. Phil and the Ramsay's have the same libel attorney - I didn't see the whole interview so not sure if they put that up as a disclaimer.

They underestimated how off-putting his affect would be to those who think the way they process stress and trauma is the way everyone should process those things and if they deviate it must be due to guilt.

 

[ClaraOswin]

9 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

I think JB was probably already dead when they found/were told about her. When they discovered that she had been killed (by Burke IMO) they had to make it look like a crazy psychopath killed her. Not a little boy with a flashlight, hence the garrote. How can you pin a murder on a 9 year old when she was killed by a sophisticated weapon like a garrote?

I doubt they ever thought that it would be discovered that she essentially died of the head injury not the garrote.

I thought that it was discovered that her heart was still beating when she was strangled. She may have been brain dead from the blow to the head. But her heart was still pumping blood or whatever.

I think I am still on the fence about which Ramsey delivered the blow to the head. Sometimes I think Burke...partly because my brother and I used to beat up on each other or throw something out of anger.

But then I think that over the years, how the heck could a child that young not slip up on the lies??

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, ClaraOswin said:

I thought that it was discovered that her heart was still beating when she was strangled. She may have been brain dead from the blow to the head. But her heart was still pumping blood or whatever.

I read way too much about this last night and experts are still divided.  Some think the blow to the head was the cause of death, others think it was asphyxiation.  

If she was still alive when they staged the garrote (if that is what happened) they killed her.  Even if she was brain dead at that point there was NO way for the parents to know her condition was unrecoverable.  The one thing the experts seem to agree on is there was no real indication of how bad the head injury was until autopsy.  If she was unconscious but breathing with a pulse anything less than 911 immediately is criminal IMO.  For all they knew she had a chance as long as she was alive at that point.  

After reading so much I am having a hard time grasping how very lucky the Ramsay's were, if they did kill her.  The absolute cluster of the mishandled crime scene...lab mistakes with nail clippers...experts who can't agree whether there was/wasn't sexual assault and even the ones who find that there was don't all agree on whether it was ongoing or one time trauma.  Experts who can't even agree on the cause of death.  And no one got the answers to whether the marks were from blunt poking trauma or stun gun burns at autopsy?

You'd think after the botched crime scene they'd have been extra careful in the lab to make sure no more fumbles.

You'd have to work pretty hard to screw a case up this badly...I'm so not a conspiracy theorist but all these things together are pretty disturbing.  

Was there ever a tox screen on JonBenet?  Some theories (could be crazy - was up late and this is unvetted) wonder if the reason for the pineapple denial is because they had used it to give her some of Patsy's anti-anxiety meds.  It's in the transcripts that the police asked both her and John about their anti-anxiety meds and she was on Klonopin which has been known to cause seizures in children.  It's never been proven the flashlight was the blunt object of the head injury and a sudden seizure depending on how she fell (and on what) may have been the cause of that?  The rest staged so if they found her drugged they could blame it on the 'intruder."

I'll look later - just wondering if anyone knew if they did a post mortem tox screen on her. 

Another thing that is crazy to me is Patsy trying to justify the size 12 underpants as not that big on her.  No way those would have stayed up on their own...they'd have been too big to even be functional.  

And I know this has nothing to do with the murder (and then I'll shut up) but the coloring of her hair has always bothered me to the core of my being.  I have a beautiful daughter a few years younger than JonBenet and in a billion years I'd never have made her up like a mini-adult...but the hair color is particularly upsetting to me because of the message it sends.  She's too little to have even developed her own sense of self and mommy is telling her she's not good enough and has to color her hair.  Because I think that's the only take away message a 6 year old can get from having to go through that.  I'm a big fan of hair color for people old enough to make choices but she was so little...it's just setting her up to think shes not good enough the way she is.  

I hate the pageant thing and I know lots of parents do it who don't murder their kids (allegedly) but the damage to their self image that has to cause breaks my heart.  

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

48 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

I thought that it was discovered that her heart was still beating when she was strangled. She may have been brain dead from the blow to the head. But her heart was still pumping blood or whatever.

I think I am still on the fence about which Ramsey delivered the blow to the head. Sometimes I think Burke...partly because my brother and I used to beat up on each other or throw something out of anger.

But then I think that over the years, how the heck could a child that young not slip up on the lies??

This - especially immediately.  That very morning they sent him to the Whites.  He could have blurted out anything then.  And later he went through life without telling anyone?  How many friends from childhood do any of us have that would keep that secret for so many years when it would be so lucrative to spill to the tabloids.  

Sending him away that morning seemed more of a move to keep him in the dark more than anything.  And screams to me that they weren't concerned about an outside threat.  

I read a notice of a missing pet and I have to go lay eyes on mine to make sure they're okay...as much as it may not be in the kids' best interest I think most parents would find it impossible to let the other out of their sight if one of their babies was missing.  

In reading the other forum (and can I say how much I appreciate FJ?  Some posters there are interesting and have some good info but the sig tags...heinous!) I noticed how some people put so much importance on absolutely everything...kind of like some here do with Duggars/Bateesessses.  Like the blanket in the suitcase in the basement belonging to the older brother with a Dr. Suess book in there.  I promise you I have weirder combos of stuff shoved in random boxes in our garage from when I hunt for something and just start tossing stuff into other boxes.  No way to know what is and isn't relevant, but not everything is and I hope the contents of my storage areas are never discussed online because I'll die of shame.  I know exactly where I've got a box with an autographed Vinnie Vincent 45, a half melted Santa candle, a little league manager trophy from 1975, and my cross stitch thread caddies.  

 

[General Jinjur]

Most of what I've read states that the garrote was applied 45 minutes to 2 hours after the blow to the head. To me, that screams coverup. As to why the Ramsey's would stage a horrific crime rather than a fall, I think that goes to Patsy being obsessed with image. Burke had a history of being violent towards JonBenet. If they staged it to look like a fall, people might question if Burke pushed her. I think it's incredibly telling that they had Burke's medical records sealed so quickly after the murder.

Burke's affect is strange for sure. I wonder how much is due to having a pageant mom  constantly telling him to smile.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, General Jinjur said:

Most of what I've read states that the garrote was applied 45 minutes to 2 hours after the blow to the head. To me, that screams coverup. As to why the Ramsey's would stage a horrific crime rather than a fall, I think that goes to Patsy being obsessed with image. Burke had a history of being violent towards JonBenet. If they staged it to look like a fall, people might question if Burke pushed her. I think it's incredibly telling that they had Burke's medical records sealed so quickly after the murder.

Burke's affect is strange for sure. I wonder how much is due to having a pageant mom  constantly telling him to smile.

It's definitely possible that he reacted that way due to his mother's influence.

I think it's mostly just who he is though. Family friends said he was much more introverted than his sister, even when he was very young. That, plus the absolute media hysteria surrounding his family for so long and the fact that his parents did what they could to shield him from the media and curious outsiders.... It probably did a real number on him and his confidence in uncomfortable social situations. And for someone who is introverted, a nationally broadcast interview about such a horrible event in your life is probably pretty uncomfortable - regardless of how understanding and nice the interviewer may be.

[sassyNoz47]

On September 20, 2016 at 11:24 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

To your bolded I have to remind myself of the same thing.  I do have a bias where I want the perpetrator to be an outsider always - because the betrayal of trust makes it so much worse. But as we all come at this from our own perspectives for me the only way a coverup makes sense is if Burke did it.  Parents pulling together to protect him is at least something I can understand, if not condone.  But not THAT coverup.  Put her st the bottom of the stairs and say she fell.  Say they were playing and accident or whatever but the garrote and sexual staging?

I can't wrap my head around how that was even a thought.  And two of them going along with that?

And besides, the coroner found cause of death strangulation so even if Burke hit her and accidentslly caused the head injury whomever tied the garrote killed her.

As a parent i think instinct would kick in and immediately call 911...and then try to figure out how the accident happened because I wouldn't be able to conceive of it being anything but an accident if it was my other child.  

If a spouse?  No coverup, no denial...for his sake he'd hope the cops would find them before I figured out what happened.

 

I'd assume my fingerprints are on every dish in our cabinets since I unload the dishwasher.  Tbh family fingerprints and lack of others doesn't mean much to me since people touch stuff all the time without leaving prints.  

What I don't get is if it's a coverup why not just say she ate some before bed?  Seems like that was a surprise to them and they didn't know how to respond.

agreed with everyone who said no way will we get a resolution, at least not without a confession...way too many mistakes from the PD to recover.

Exactly my finger prints are probably on every dish in my house. Even could explain Burkesbmaybe he moved the bowl when reaching for a different dish who knows. I can actually believe the intruder story. But I was thinking more it was someone close to the family that knew JB maybe was obsessed with her. JB favorite snack was pineapple with milk in the bowl (gag) but the brother usually had tea and just pineapple without the milk. So if this had the milk in it I can't help but wonder if a intruder who knew this could of lured her downstairs quietly for her favorite snack. Before taking her to the basement.  Maybe he has even been in the house for hours waiting for them to come home and that gave him time to write the note I don't know I'm just thinking of all possibilities. 

I remember the BTK killer had a couple victims that he sat and waited in the house for hours for them to return. I'm fairly local to the BTK home town. I actually played with his kids as a child when visiting my cousins , that case always intrigued me then to find out it was someone you actually had interacted with at one point was mind blowing. 

Anyway I'm just saying it's possible , I'm a true crime freak and I admit ... I actually went to the Ramsey's house in Boulder and snooped around the out side it was several years after the fact but the layout was still the same. They had just changed the actual address. I believe collage kids were living in it at that time. My parents live in Denver and my dad knew John through work he did. Not well but enough to insist in his opinion there was no way he was involved. But who knows. That house was massive it didn't have a clear through alley at the time we went so I remember going down the alley or what we thought was one and having to back out it was more like a field. Anyway I got out and looked in Windows from the back of the house just being nosey I guess. And not one person in the area even questioned us or really could see us from the back at all. The house sits a little back from the street to. But just from the little I saw , that was the first time I could believe that a intruder could of easily hid out in that house. But what do I know really. 

As for her brother I just don't see a child that young doing this. I'm with some others I question if Burke has aspergers or something. That would totally explain his demeanor and lack of emotions and such. I'd love to see this case solved but I don't think it will be. But then again look at the BTK case. 

Has anyone ever seen any interviews at all with johns older children? I have not and that always kind of seemed odd for them to of never spoke out. 

[sassyNoz47]

8 hours ago, Fascinated said:

@laPapessaGiovanna, you should be able to watch the specials on YouTube. 

I haven't finished watching them yet but I do wonder if the new investigators worked with the pre-conceived notion that it was a family member.  It has been discussed upthread, but I think their interpretation of the 911 tape is suspect.  I certainly couldn't decipher the words they were claiming to hear.  The 911 operator did not ever, at least in the interview that I watched, say that she heard those same words.  

If Burke did it, and knows he did it, why would he even agree to be interviewed by Dr. Phil?

I could not make out anything said on the tapes either. Not even close to what they were claiming to hear. And the 911 operator really didn't give any valuable information. She claimed to of heard 2 voices but couldn't make out what they said. It almost seemed to me like that when interviewing her they were telling what they heard being said .. Like they were leading her to maybe agree that is what she heard . But she didnt give any indication she agreed with what they claim to of heard . 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

6 hours ago, nausicaa said:

@laPapessaGiovanna Since you're Italian, I'd love to hear your take on the Amanda Knox case. 

I prefer to call it the Meredith Kercher case. She was a wonderful girl whose death will never receive full justice. 

I don't like foxy knoxy she's a fakey sociopathic viper (she lied on many accounts and tried to make an innocent person seem guilty) and I think she's as guilty as Guede and Sollecito, but I fully admit evidence against her wasn't as rock solid as those against the other two. I think that the Massei papers (the explained resons for the first sentencing that you can read in English, in full form or summed up as you prefer,here) is the best and more sensed reconstruction of what happened that night.

Rumours here say that the American embassy and the then Secretary of State now presidential candidate meddled with our politicians to influence our judicial system. I don't know and I don't even want to know if this may be possible, it's just something that would piss me off terribly if she was released because she's a white American girl with a charming face. For Sollecito absolution I have not found a plausible explanation (imho), good evidence pointed to him being complicit and present on the scene. Some commentators say that it happened because in the facts reconstruction the prosecution tied his position to Knox's therefore the court absolving Knox had to absolve Sollecito too, but I don't think this makes sense, the court can propose its own interpretation of facts that doesn't necessarily have to be identical to the ones proposed by the prosecution or by the defence.

ETA now in exchange you can tell me what you think about the Chico Forti case, I don't know all the facts and I don't have an opinion but many here say he is innocent. 

[General Jinjur]

1 hour ago, sassyNoz47 said:

As for her brother I just don't see a child that young doing this. I'm with some others I question if Burke has aspergers or something. That would totally explain his demeanor and lack of emotions and such. I'd love to see this case solved but I don't think it will be. But then again look at the BTK case. 

Has anyone ever seen any interviews at all with johns older children? I have not and that always kind of seemed odd for them to of never spoke out. 

There are plenty of instances of children Burke's age or younger killing. I don't think it was premeditated murder, just that Burke lost his temper and hit her too hard (then the parents covered it up).

I used to babysit two kids. The brother was absolutely brutal to his little sister (way beyond normal siblings fighting), and I was terrified that he'd accidentally kill her some day. The parents downplayed it, but it was truly awful to witness. Fortunately, the sister grew up and moved far away from her family.

@VelociRapture I'm an introvert and awkward as hell. I can't imagine having to go through that media circus.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

9 hours ago, Fascinated said:

 

@laPapessaGiovanna, you should be able to watch the specials on YouTube. 

 

Thank you but I have limited bandwidth and once subtracted my daughter's monthly cartoons allowance I need to choose carefully what I watch on the tube, after @Velocirapture review I don't think I miss much not watching them.

[nausicaa]

41 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

ETA now in exchange you can tell me what you think about the Chico Forti case, I don't know all the facts and I don't have an opinion but many here say he is innocent. 

Oooh, I've never heard of this case. Have to go read up on it now.

[Chickenbutt]

@ClaraOswin You are right....I was thinking brain dead and typed dead. Sorry for the confusion.

[polecat]

On 9/20/2016 at 2:05 PM, bingbangboom said:

The cbs special said there was milk in the bowl of pineapple. I've never heard of anybody doing this, which makes the pineapple seem even weirder. 

what are the odds an intruder would eat the same (yucky sounding) snack with JB?

 

It was reported as cream way, way back in the day. Are they saying it was milk now? 

Pineapples and cream are actually a pretty tasty snack, fwiw. Pineapples and milk, probably not so much.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

Oooh, I've never heard of this case. Have to go read up on it now.

It is not as interesting as JBR's or Kercher's, but I heard of it on Italian media and a well known criminologist swears by Forti's innocence. Italian media are pretty skewed towards the miscarriage of justice hypothesis, but reading English language forums leaves me very dubious. Either way I can't find an unbiased source and most of the English language sources are actually originally written in Italian and badly automatically translated into a poor English (some even translate his last name in Mr Strong).

[polecat]

On 9/22/2016 at 7:40 AM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I read way too much about this last night and experts are still divided.  Some think the blow to the head was the cause of death, others think it was asphyxiation.  

If she was still alive when they staged the garrote (if that is what happened) they killed her.  Even if she was brain dead at that point there was NO way for the parents to know her condition was unrecoverable.  The one thing the experts seem to agree on is there was no real indication of how bad the head injury was until autopsy.  If she was unconscious but breathing with a pulse anything less than 911 immediately is criminal IMO.  For all they knew she had a chance as long as she was alive at that point.  

After reading so much I am having a hard time grasping how very lucky the Ramsay's were, if they did kill her.  The absolute cluster of the mishandled crime scene...lab mistakes with nail clippers...experts who can't agree whether there was/wasn't sexual assault and even the ones who find that there was don't all agree on whether it was ongoing or one time trauma.  Experts who can't even agree on the cause of death.  And no one got the answers to whether the marks were from blunt poking trauma or stun gun burns at autopsy?

You'd think after the botched crime scene they'd have been extra careful in the lab to make sure no more fumbles.

You'd have to work pretty hard to screw a case up this badly...I'm so not a conspiracy theorist but all these things together are pretty disturbing.  

Was there ever a tox screen on JonBenet?  Some theories (could be crazy - was up late and this is unvetted) wonder if the reason for the pineapple denial is because they had used it to give her some of Patsy's anti-anxiety meds.  It's in the transcripts that the police asked both her and John about their anti-anxiety meds and she was on Klonopin which has been known to cause seizures in children.  It's never been proven the flashlight was the blunt object of the head injury and a sudden seizure depending on how she fell (and on what) may have been the cause of that?  The rest staged so if they found her drugged they could blame it on the 'intruder."

I'll look later - just wondering if anyone knew if they did a post mortem tox screen on her. 

Another thing that is crazy to me is Patsy trying to justify the size 12 underpants as not that big on her.  No way those would have stayed up on their own...they'd have been too big to even be functional.  

And I know this has nothing to do with the murder (and then I'll shut up) but the coloring of her hair has always bothered me to the core of my being.  I have a beautiful daughter a few years younger than JonBenet and in a billion years I'd never have made her up like a mini-adult...but the hair color is particularly upsetting to me because of the message it sends.  She's too little to have even developed her own sense of self and mommy is telling her she's not good enough and has to color her hair.  Because I think that's the only take away message a 6 year old can get from having to go through that.  I'm a big fan of hair color for people old enough to make choices but she was so little...it's just setting her up to think shes not good enough the way she is.  

I hate the pageant thing and I know lots of parents do it who don't murder their kids (allegedly) but the damage to their self image that has to cause breaks my heart.  

 

8

They did do a post mortem tox -- no alcohol or drugs were found, but some drugs have to be specifically screened, and it doesn't say what exactly they looked for, as far as I can see.

 

Spoiler

NAME: RAMSEY, JONBENET AUTOPSY NO. 96A-155
DOB: 08/06/90 DEATH D/T: 12/26/96 @ 1323
AGE: 6Y AUTOPSY D/T: 12/27/96 @ 0815
SEX: F ID NO: 137712
PATH MD: MEYER COR/MEDREC#: 1714-96-A
TYPE: COR

FINAL DIAGNOSIS:
I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow of neck
B. Abrasions and petechial hemorrhages, neck
C. Petechial hemorrhages, conjunctival surfaces of eyes and skin of face
II. Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion
B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull
C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral hemisphere
D. subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage
E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes
III. Abrasion of right cheek
IV. Abrasion/contusion, posterior right shoulder
V. Abrasions of left lower back and posterior left lower leg
VI. Abrasion and vancular congestion of vaginal mucosa
VII. Ligature of right wrist
Toxicologic Studies
blood ethanol - none detected
blood drug screen - no drugs detected

CLINOCOPATHOLIGICAL CORRELATION:
Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.
John E. Meyer M.D.
Pathologist
jn/12/27/96

The body of this six year old female was first seen by me after I was called to an address identified as 755 - 15th street in Boulder, Colorado, on 12/26/96. I arrived at the scene approximately 8 PM on 12/26 and entered the house where the decedent's body was located at approximately 8:20 PM.

A brief examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and a ligature around the right wrist. Also noted was a small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear on the lateral aspect of the right cheek. A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck. After examining the body, I left the residence at approximately 8:30 PM.

EXTERNAL EVIDENCE OF INJURY: Located just below the right ear at the right angle of the mandible, 1.5 inches below the right external auditory canal is a 3/8 x 1/4 inch area of rust colored abrasion. In the lateral aspect of the left lower eyelid on the inner conjunctival surface is a 1 mm in maximum dimension petechial hemorrhage. Very fine, less than 1 mm petechial hemorrhages are present on the skin of the upper eyelids bilaterally as well as on the lateral left cheek. On everything the left upper eyelid there are much smaller, less than 1 mm petechial hemorrhages located on the conjunctival surface. Possible petechial hemorrhages are also seen on the conjunctival surfaces of the right upper and lower eyelids, but liver mortis on this side of the face makes definite identification difficult.

A deep ligature furrow encircles the entire neck. The width of the furrow varies from one-eight of an inch to five/sixteenths of an inch and is horizontal in orientation, with little upward deviation. The skin of the anterior neck above and below the ligature furrow contains areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3 x 2 inches. The ligature furrow crosses the anterior midline of the neck just below the laryngeal prominence, approximately at the level of the cricoid cartilage. It is almost completely horizontal with slight upward deviation from the horizontal towards the back of the neck. The midline of the furrow mark on the anterior neck is 8 inches below the top of the head. The midline of the furrow mark on the posterior neck is 6.75 inches below the top of the head.

The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of the midline, a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width of 0.75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral. The remainder of the abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow are nonpatterned, purple to rust colored, and present in the midline, right, and left areas of the anterior neck. The skin just above the ligature furrow along the right side of the neck contains petechial hemorrhage composed of multiple confluent very small petechial hemorrhages as well as several larger petechial hemorrhages measuring up to one-sixteenth and one-eight of an inch in maximum dimension. Similar smaller petechial hemorrhages are present on the skin below the ligature furrow on the left lateral aspect of the neck. Located on the right side of the chin is a three-sixteenths by one-eight of an inch area of superficial abrasion. On the posterior aspect of the right shoulder is a poorly demarcated, very superficial focus of abrasion/contusion which is pale purple in color and measures up to three-quarters by one-half inch in maximum dimension. Several linear aggregates of petechial hemorrhages are present in the anterior left shoulder just above deltopectoral groove. These measure up to one inch in length by one-sixteenth to one-eight of an inch in width. On the left lateral aspect of the lower back, approximately sixteen and one-quarter inches and seventeen and one-half inches below the level of the top of the head are two dried rust colored to slightly purple abrasions. The more superior of the two measures one-eight by one-sixteenth of an inch and the more inferior measures three-sixteenths by one-eight of an inch. There is no surrounding contusion identified. On the posterior aspect of the left lower leg, almost in the midline, approximately 4 inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored. They measure one-sixteenth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch and one-eight by less than one-sixteenth of an inch respectively.

On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule. Inside the vestibule of the vagina and along the distal vaginal wall is reddish hyperemia. This hyperemia is circumferential and perhaps more noticeable on the right side and posteriorly. The hyperemia also appears to extend just inside the vaginal orifice. A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm hymeneal orifice. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora is a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue discloses no hemorrhage. A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault. No recent or remote anal or other perineal trauma is identified.

REMAINDER OF EXTERNAL EXAMINATION: The unembalmed, well developed and well nourished Caucasian female body measures 47 inches in length and weight an estimated 45 pounds.

No scalp trauma is identified. The external auditory canals are patent and free of blood. The eyes are green and the pupils equally dilated. The sclerae are white. The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous material. The teeth are native and in good repair. The tongue is smooth, pink-tan and granular. No buccal mucosal trauma is seen. The frenulum is intact. There is slight drying artifact of the tip of the tongue. On the right cheek is a pattern of dried saliva and mucous material which does not appear to be hemorrhagic. The neck contains no palpable adenopathy or masses and the trachea and larynx are midline. The chest is symmetrical. Breasts are prepubescent. The abdomen is flat and contains no scars. No palpable organomegaly or masses are identified. The external genitalia are that of a prepubescent female. No pubic hair is present. The anus is patent. Examination of the extremities is unremarkable.

The fingernails of both hands are of sufficient length for clipping. Examination of the back is unremarkable. There is dorsal 3+ to 4+ livor mortis which is nonblanching. Livor mortis is also present on the right side of the face. At the time of the initiation of the autopsy there is mild 1 to 2+ rigor mortis of the elbows and shoulders with more advanced 2 to 3+ rigor mortis of the joints of the lower extremities.

INTERNAL EXAM: The anterior chest musculature is well developed. No sternal or rib fractures are identified.

Mediastinum: The mediastinal contents are normally distributed. The 21 gm thymus gland has a normal external appearance. The cut sections are finely lobular and pink-tan. No petechial hemorrhages are seen. The aorta and remainder of the mediastinal structures are unremarkable.

Body Cavities: The right and left thoracic cavities contain approximately 5 cc of straw colored fluid. The pleural surfaces are smooth and glistening. The pericardial sac contains 3-4 cc of straw colored fluid and the epicardium and pericardium are unremarkable. The abdominal contents are normally distributed and covered by a smooth glistening serosa. No intra-abdominal accumulation of fluid or blood is seen.

Lungs: The 200 gm right lung and 175 gm let lung have a normal lobar configuration. An occasional scattered subpleural petechial hemorrhage is seen on the surface of each lung. The cut sections of the lungs disclose an intact alveolar architecture with a small amount of watery fluid exuding from the cut surfaces with mild pressure. The intrapulmonary bronchi and vasculature are unremarkable. No evidence of consolidation is seen.

Heart: The 100 gm heart has a normal external configuration. There are scattered subepicardial petechial hemorrhages over the anterior surface of the heart. The coronary arteries are normal in their distribution and contain no evidence of atherosclerosis. The tan-pink myocardium is homogeneous and contains no areas of

fibrosis or infarction. The endocardium is unremarkable. The valve cusps are thin, delicate and pliable and contain no vegetation or thrombosis. The major vessels enter and leave the heart in the normal fashion. The foramen ovale is closed.

Aorta and Vena Cava: The aorta is patent throughout its course as are its major branches. No atherosclerosis is seen. The Vena Cava is unremarkable.

Spleen: The 61 gm spleen has a finely wrinkled purple capsule. Cut sections are homogeneous and disclose readily identifiable red and white pulp. No intrinsic abnormalities are identified.

Adrenals: The adrenal glands are of normal size and shape. A golden yellow cortex surmounts a thin brown-tan medullary area. No intrinsic abnormalities are identified.

Kidneys: The 40 gm right kidney and 40 gm left kidney have a normal external appearance. The surfaces are smooth and glistening. Cut sections disclose an intact corticomedullary architecture. The renal papilae are sharply demarcated. The pelvocaliceal system is lined by gray-white mucosa which is unremarkable. Both ureters are patent throughout their course to the bladder.

Liver: The 625 gm liver has a normal external appearance. The capsule is smooth and glistening. Cut sections disclose an intact lobular architecture with no intrinsic abnormalities identified.

Pancreas: The pancreas is of normal size and shape. Cut sections are finely lobular and tan. No intrinsic abnormalities are identified.

Bladder: The bladder is contracted and contains no urine. The bladder mucosa is smooth and tan-gray. No intrinsic abnormalities are seen.

Genitalia: The upper portions of the vaginal vault contain no abnormalities. The prepubescent uterus measures 3 x 1 x 0.8 cm and is unremarkable. The cervical os contains no abnormalities. Both fallopian tubes and ovaries are prepubescent and unremarkable by gross examination.

Gallbladder: The gallbladder contains 2-3 cc of amber bile. No stones are identified and the mucosa is smooth and velvety. The cystic duct, right and left hepatic duct and common bile duct are patent throughout their course to the duodenum.

G.I. Tract: The esophagus is empty. It is lined by gray-white mucosa. The stomach contains a small amount (8-10 cc) of viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material without particulate matter identified. The gastric mucosa is autolyzed but contains no areas of hemorrhage or ulceration. The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple. No hemorrhage is identified. The remainder of the small intestine is unremarkable. The large intestine contains soft green fecal material. The appendix is present.

Lymphatic System: Unremarkable.

Musculoskeletal System: Unremarkable.

Skull and Brain: Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area. This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7 x 4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization. At the superior extension of this area of hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area forward to the right frontal area across the parietal portion of the skull. the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures approximately 8.5 inches in length. On removal of the skull cap there is found to be a thin film of subdural hemorrhage measuring approximately 7-8 cc over the surface of the right cerebral hemisphere and extending to the base of the cerebral hemisphere. The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture. Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. No inflammation is identified. There is a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. On the right cerebral hemisphere underlying the previously mentioned linear skull fracture is an extensive linear area of purple contusion extending from the right frontal area, posteriorly along the lateral aspect of the parietal region and into the occipital area. This area of contusion measures 8 inches in length with a width of up to 1.75 inches. At the tip of the right temporal lobe is a one-quarter by one quarter inch similar appearing purple contusion. Only very minimal contusion is present at the tip of the left temporal lobe. This area of contusion measures only one-half inch in maximum dimension. The cerebral vasculature contains no evidence of atherosclerosis. Multiple coronal sections of the cerebral hemispheres, brain stem and cerebullum disclose no additional abnormalities. The areas of previously described contusion are characterized by purple linear streak-like discolorations of the gray matter perpendicular to the surface of the cerebral cortex. These extend approximately 6 mm into the cerebral cortex. Examination of the base of the brain discloses no additional fractures.

Neck: Dissection of the neck is performed after removal of the thoracoabdominal organs and the brain. The anterior strap musculature of the neck is serially dissected. Multiple sections of the sternocleidomastoid muscle disclose no hemorrhages. Sections of the remainder of the strap musculature of the neck disclose no evidence of hemorrhage. Examination of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage and hyoid bone disclose not evidence of fracture of hemorrhage. Multiple cross sections of the tongue disclose no hemorrhage or traumatic injury. The thyroid gland weights 2 gm and is normal in appearance. Cut sections are finely lobular and red-tan. The trachea and larynx are lined by smooth pink-tan mucosa without intrinsic abnormalities.

MICROSCOPIC DESCRIPTION: (All Sections Stained with H&E)

(Slide Key) - (A) - scalp hemorrhage, (B) - sections of vaginal mucosa with smallest fragment representing area of abrasion of 7:00 position, (C) - heart, (D-F) - lungs, (G) - liver and spleen, (H) - pancreas and kidney, (I) - thyroid and bladder, (J) - thymus and adrenals, (K-L) - reproductive organs, (M) - larynx, (N-T) - brain.

Myocardium: Sections of the ventricular myocardium are composed of interlacing bundles of cardiac muscle fibers. No fibrosis or inflammation are identified.

Lungs: The alveolar architecture of the lungs is well preserved. Pulmonary vascular congestion is identified. No intrinsic abnormalities are seen.

Spleen: There is mild autolysis of the spleen. Both red and white pulp are identifiable.

Thyroid: The thyroid gland is composed of normal-appearing follicles. An occasional isolated area of chronic interstitial inflammatory infiltrate is seen. There is also a small fragment of parathyroid tissue.

Thymus: The thymus gland retains the usual architecture. The lymphoid material is intact and scattered Hassall's corpuscles are identified. Mild vascular congestion is identified.

Trachea: There is mild chronic inflammation in the submucosa of the trachea.

Liver: The lobular architecture of the liver is well preserved. No inflammation or intrinsic abnormality are identified.

Pancreas: There is autolysis of the pancreas which is otherwise unremarkable.

Kidney: The overall architecture of the kidney is well preserved. There is perhaps mild vascular congestion in the cortex but no inflammation is identified.

Bladder: The transitional epithelium of the bladder is autolyzed. No significant intrinsic abnormalities are seen.

Reproductive Organs: Sections of the uterus are consistent with the prepubescent age. The ovary is unremarkable.

Adrenal: The architecture of the adrenal is well preserved and no intrinsic abnormalities are seen.

Brain: Sections of the areas of contusion disclose disrupted blood vessels of the cortex with surrounding hemorrhage. There is no evidence of inflammatory infiltrate or organization of the hemorrhage. Subarachnoid hemorrhage is also identified. Cortical neurons are surrounded by clear halos, as are glial cells.

Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen.

EVIDENCE: Items turned over to the Boulder Police Department as evidence include: Fibers and hair from clothing and body surfaces; ligatures; clothing; vaginal swabs and smears; rectal swabs and smears; oral swabs and smears; paper bags from hands, fingernail clippings, jewelry, paper bags from feet; white body bag; sample of head hear, eyelashes and eyebrows; swabs from right and left thighs and right cheek; red top and purple top tubes of blood.

END OF REPORT

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

BTW what sort of name is JonBenét? I don't know if it's because I am a foreigner bur it sounds just so strange.

[Maggie Mae]

40 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

BTW what sort of name is JonBenét? I don't know if it's because I am a foreigner bur it sounds just so strange.

She's named after her father, John Bennett. 

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, polecat said:

It was reported as cream way, way back in the day. Are they saying it was milk now? 

Pineapples and cream are actually a pretty tasty snack, fwiw. Pineapples and milk, probably not so much.

In the old interviews with Bennett the woman asks him if JonBenet likes pineapple and milk. I'd never heard of it before then either.

[Blahblah]

2 hours ago, nausicaa said:

In the old interviews with Bennett the woman asks him if JonBenet likes pineapple and milk. I'd never heard of it before then either.

I've read elsewhere that it was condensed milk. I haven't heard of that either and still wouldn't eat it, but it makes more sense than regular milk. If it was a frequent snack for them they would probably just call it "milk" rather than say "condensed milk" every time. Most families would have short hand speech for familiar things. 

[FundieFarmer]

This case always fascinated me because JBR was so close to my age. I heard about her when I was young, and have always wanted to know more.

I think that John, Patsy, and Burke did it as well. The clues are so disjointed and seem like more than one person with more than one strength, style, and plan contributed. It would be hard to pinpoint one killer when there were multiple who were so different.

[polecat]

10 hours ago, Blahblah said:

I've read elsewhere that it was condensed milk. I haven't heard of that either and still wouldn't eat it, but it makes more sense than regular milk. If it was a frequent snack for them they would probably just call it "milk" rather than say "condensed milk" every time. Most families would have short hand speech for familiar things. 

 

In one of Patsy's interviews, it didn't sound like pineapple was a frequent snack of either JBR's OR Burke's. I'll have to see if I can hunt it up. 

Here's part of it but not the part I wanted. Still, it has some interesting info -- http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-menu.htm

Ah, here it is (but the source might be questionable?): http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TVL52VGC1BRAELJ9E

I did find this while searching and thought it made some interesting points (for those who aren't sold on CBS' version of events): http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/3-big-ways-the-case-of-jonbenet-ramsey-got-it-wrong-w440970

 

And I'm sure I now sound like a complete nutter. 

[FundieFarmer]

On September 20, 2016 at 9:57 AM, nausicaa said:

And some more true crime recommendations: The Lori Erica Ruff case is so weird. And the William Herbert Wallace one is an oldie but a goodie. And it seems that some people have recently pretty much solved it.

 

OT but they figured out who she is! Here you go: http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/special-reports/my-god-thats-kimberly-online-sleuth-solves-perplexing-mystery-of-identity-thief-lori-ruff/

[EyeQueue]

On 9/22/2016 at 7:40 AM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

And I know this has nothing to do with the murder (and then I'll shut up) but the coloring of her hair has always bothered me to the core of my being.  I have a beautiful daughter a few years younger than JonBenet and in a billion years I'd never have made her up like a mini-adult...but the hair color is particularly upsetting to me because of the message it sends.  She's too little to have even developed her own sense of self and mommy is telling her she's not good enough and has to color her hair.  Because I think that's the only take away message a 6 year old can get from having to go through that.  I'm a big fan of hair color for people old enough to make choices but she was so little...it's just setting her up to think shes not good enough the way she is.  

And that's like the second thing Patty says on the 911 tape:  "She's blonde."

That struck me as strange. Of course, I never know how I would react in a situation like that, but I would not just leave the physical description of my daughter as:  "She's blonde" (or "She's a blonde"...I can't remember which she said).

It would be more like: She's 17. She has long blonde hair and green eyes and is medium build, about 5'5" and was last wearing blah blah blah outfit.

The hair dying speaks to me of an image issue, but maybe also a control issue. And maybe if JonBenet was bedwetting, one of the parents got really angry and accidentally hit her. (And this also reminds me of the Jeffrey MacDonald case that I think Buffy mentioned upthread).

[HerNameIsBuffy]

36 minutes ago, EyeQueue said:

And that's like the second thing Patty says on the 911 tape:  "She's blonde."

That struck me as strange. Of course, I never know how I would react in a situation like that, but I would not just leave the physical description of my daughter as:  "She's blonde" (or "She's a blonde"...I can't remember which she said).

It would be more like: She's 17. She has long blonde hair and green eyes and is medium build, about 5'5" and was last wearing blah blah blah outfit.

The hair dying speaks to me of an image issue, but maybe also a control issue. And maybe if JonBenet was bedwetting, one of the parents got really angry and accidentally hit her. (And this also reminds me of the Jeffrey MacDonald case that I think Buffy mentioned upthread).

Always thought the blonde thing was weird too...she didn't mention her daughter's name but got haircolor in there?  

Thank God we will never know what it's like to go through this, but I think if I was going to toss a descriptor in there I'd instinctively do size.  Emphasis on how little she is because I would be tormented by how small and vulnerable she is.

Fwiw (which is nothing) my gut feeling has always been one of the parents lost it and hit her - she fell into something which caused the head injury.  I have read so much about the MacDonald case and I'm still stunned by all the data that the bedwetting thing causes some parents to rage.  If a kid is going through a period where they're having accidents you keep a plastic liner on the mattress, clean bedding/undies and jammies in easy reach and take care of it.  I've also been known to put mine in pull ups and let them sleep with me if I wasn't up to stripping the bed.  It's not something to be angry about.  Idk how old I was but I had my share of accidents at night in the era before pull ups and my mom did the same...she never got pissed.  It's part of parenting.

I always assumed Patsy, but could be my bias because in my world mom's were usually the ones on night time urine detail.