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JonBenét Ramsey


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Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Fwiw (which is nothing) my gut feeling has always been one of the parents lost it and hit her - she fell into something which caused the head injury.  I have read so much about the MacDonald case and I'm still stunned by all the data that the bedwetting thing causes some parents to rage.  If a kid is going through a period where they're having accidents you keep a plastic liner on the mattress, clean bedding/undies and jammies in easy reach and take care of it.  I've also been known to put mine in pull ups and let them sleep with me if I wasn't up to stripping the bed.  It's not something to be angry about.  Idk how old I was but I had my share of accidents at night in the era before pull ups and my mom did the same...she never got pissed.  It's part of parenting.

I always assumed Patsy, but could be my bias because in my world mom's were usually the ones on night time urine detail.  

A lot of people seem to believe kids wet the bed on purpose. I don't know why.

I'm a really deep sleeper, always have been, and have a small bladder. I wet the bed for a long time as well. (I'm also left-handed and there's this weird link between being left-handed and bed wetting, no idea why.) And I have to say my mom, despite having a bad temper, never got mad about that. You set up a system for it. I had a plastic cover on my mattress, a towel under my sheet where my pelvis would be, and she kept a stack of clean sheets and towels near the bed. She's probably had it down to five minutes flat in changing everything and when I was six or seven and it happened I did it myself.

I always find it weird when people have children and then are shocked at having to deal with puke, urine, poop, and snot. Kids are grungy little things.

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13 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

 I have read so much about the MacDonald case and I'm still stunned by all the data that the bedwetting thing causes some parents to rage.  If a kid is going through a period where they're having accidents you keep a plastic liner on the mattress, clean bedding/undies and jammies in easy reach and take care of it.  I've also been known to put mine in pull ups and let them sleep with me if I wasn't up to stripping the bed

Word to this. It's not something to lose your shit over, but I guess if there are some potential mental health issues relating to anger or control or OCD or things of that nature, it could happen. And I've known enough people with rage issues to know it can happen *very* quickly and without thought. :(

I'm still watching the documentary, but Patty definitely seems to be the one most potentially with a control issue (controlling the image of the family, controlling how JonBenet looked, etc.).

Such a sad and bizarre case all around.

And yes--thank all the Gods or the universe or whatever that we've never had to go through this. And I've certainly thought about it a lot because I, too, have a ridiculous obsession with true crime so it's always on my radar. All the what ifs, etc.

Probably not the best hobby for someone with generalized anxiety, LOL!

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The note is what convinces me there was NOT an intruder.  It makes no sense for an intruder to have taken that much time to write the note and replace the writing materials where they were found.

My guess is that it was some sort of accident and John and Patsy were protecting whoever did it.  Most likely it was one of them or Burke, but maybe it was another family member or friend. I remember reading speculation about one of John's older children from his first marriage, although I don't remember the details.

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40 minutes ago, turquoise said:

The note is what convinces me there was NOT an intruder.  It makes no sense for an intruder to have taken that much time to write the note and replace the writing materials where they were found.

My guess is that it was some sort of accident and John and Patsy were protecting whoever did it.  Most likely it was one of them or Burke, but maybe it was another family member or friend. I remember reading speculation about one of John's older children from his first marriage, although I don't remember the details.

The length of the note and the actual content are much odder to me than the amount of time it must have taken to write. If it was an intruder they could have entered the home before the Ramseys arrived and written the note at that point - they could have had a significant amount of time in which to write the note and prepare. Thre wasn't necessarily a real time crunch the way a lot of people (and the CBS show) imagine.

------

The more I read about this case the less impressed I am to be with the CBS show to be honest. It's entirely possible that it was Burke or his parents - and some of the evidence certainly points at them. But they took credit for "breakthroughs" that other people thought of first, completely disregarded potentially relevant evidence, hyper analyzed things that are highly subjective, and pursued only evidence that fit the narrative they wanted. That's lazy journalism and it's really unethical for them to flat out state they think it was Burke based off that.

Personally, I kind of hope the Ramseys win the lawsuit against CBS now - because if it wasn't Burke who killed JonBenét then they slandered an innocent man on national television just for ratings. And that's just wrong on so many levels, especially if you consider everything he must have gone through after his sister's death.

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I watched the TLC special at the gym yesterday, and had a nice long post written out on my phone. It's gone now, of course. 

I think my main points were that I had forgotten about all of the police/da/media politics that were involved, and that I needed to remind myself to look at this through a 1996 lens. 

I find it entirely possible that someone could have "scoped out" the house while it was being exhibited on the "Parade of Homes." I also find it likely that Patsy & John were buzzed/tired/distracted after the party. John carried her in through the garage door and put her to bed. Maybe they forgot to close the garage door. Maybe Patsy was distracted as well. Hell, maybe the front door was unlocked. Growing up in the 90s in a nice neighborhood, we didn't use our front door so it might have been unlocked from earlier.  JonBenet had a balcony attached to her room. 

And then there was the crime scene contamination. Fleet White over and took Burke and they made up his bed. I've also read that he helped close some doors and windows. 

If it was an intruder, then the only reason from the staged scene would be for some sort of sick 'frame the family' reason. 

But then there is the weird guy who had all of those details and "loved" JonBenet.

This case is f'in weird. That's what I got.

 

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16 hours ago, turquoise said:

The note is what convinces me there was NOT an intruder.  It makes no sense for an intruder to have taken that much time to write the note and replace the writing materials where they were found.

My guess is that it was some sort of accident and John and Patsy were protecting whoever did it.  Most likely it was one of them or Burke, but maybe it was another family member or friend. I remember reading speculation about one of John's older children from his first marriage, although I don't remember the details.

The cliff note version of the eldest son (John Andrew Ramsey) is that he was college age and lived with his mom is Florida when not at school, but had a room at his Dad's.

He was cleared of suspicion because cops were satisfied in his alibi (security camera and witnesses with no reason to lie) that he wasn't even in Colorado at the time.  But one neighbor said they thought they saw someone who looked like him the previous morning and so there are people who believe he was secretly there - because he could have had access to a private plane and there were fewer pics taken Christmas morning in the Ramsey house than usual.  Also J and P paid for lawyers for the elder kids and their mom, John's ex wife.  The mindset is why lawyer up the ex wife?  IMO a logical reason would be tha media circus and how harassed they were. And it's said relations between John and Patsy and his ex-wife were friendly.  

Dont forget, not long before John had lost one of his elder daughters to a car crash and so he and his ex had very fresh shared grief.

As far as the eldest son being there IMO it's ridiculous.  Journalists dug for any private flight plans which would have made it possible and nothing.  Unless he could teleport I give that no credence.

The other link is that the suitcase in the wine cellar contained a blanket used by the elder son and had his DNA on it.  He was a college age guy and somehow a blanket was shoved in there unwashed...the Ramsey's weren't tidy or particularly organized people.  No judgement from me, but it's not like they were Monk-like so a blanket which appeared clean with non-visible DNA on it means nothing to me.

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Just saw an advertisement for a show about JBR. The ad showed John talking about his disgust about the CBS special showing a child hitting a skull with a flashlight. Anyhoo, it is on A&E Sunday night at 9pm Arizona time.

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Dr. Werner Spitz is being sued by Burke Ramsey for defamation due to comments Dr. Spitz made on a radio show in September where he stared Burke bludgeoned his sister to death:

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/burke-ramsey-files-150m-defamation-lawsuit-over-claims-040037917.html

The article also says that a suit against CBS is being prepared now.

Thoughts or reactions?

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@VelociRapture it is my understanding that to support a defamation case, the plaintiff would have to show that the statement made was demonstrably untrue and was made with malice by the defendant. Bring it on. Put Burke on the stand, cross examine him, and while they are at it, John Ramsey as well. It's about time the only two living people who were in the house that night were put to the test. 

And before anyone says that John Ramsey was interviewed by police already, remember that it took MONTHS for him to agree to it, and the interview was only given on the basis that the Boulder police gave him and Patsy a list of all their questions in advance.  The delays in complying with the police are one of the reasons that I firmly believe that the Ramsey's are involved in this murder and cover up.

The polygraph that the Ramsey supporters wave about that shows "innocence" was one of many that they kept doing until they managed to get one that supported them and it was done by an examiner that they engaged.

One of my kids goes missing, I would grab the other one, glue them to my side and scream at the police every spare second I had to interview and eliminate us and get on with finding the culprit. Instead they shuffle Burke off with a neighbour, lawyer up and refuse to speak to anyone (except on their own terms) for months. 

Anyone still thinking that an intruder did it needs to go to Websleuths or Forums for Justice and do some background reading. There is not a scrap of creedible evidence for the intruder theories. On the other hand there is a mountain of evidence that one or more (or all) of the Ramsey's were involved. 

This is a very odd family. Burke was/is a very disturbed child (look up the faeces smearing including on walls and in JonBenet's bed, and on her Christmas chocolates). His interview with the child psychologist was disturbing enough but look at his demeanour at JB's funeral. He was laughing and skipping.

Will stop now because I could go on for hours, but I encourage you to please do your own reading.

I don't think we will ever know exactly who did what in that house that night, but I'm convinved there was no intruder involved.

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@BlahblahThe only reason malice would come into play is if Burke were a public figure. Considering the fact that he has consistently avoided the spotlight for almost twenty years and only spoke with the press once, recently, in that entire time period his lawyer could make the case that he is a private individual and the malice portion does not apply. Whether the Judge will rule in his favor or not remains to be determined - but if they do it could make his lawsuit much easier.

 

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@VelociRapture I think the public figure argument will be interesting. The leap into the public eye was pretty spectacular and done completely voluntarily. I have no experience or knowledge of case law on this point, but the counterpoint argument that I would put is that twenty years of silence is irrelevant given that he recently firmly placed himself in the public eye in a huge way, thus making himself a public figure. Not sure on the timing of the Spitz interview, but even if the Dr Phil  interview hadn't aired the publicity for it was already being shown I think.

The Dr Phil interview is largely responsible for the enormous public interest in this case thanks to the world wide exposure and Dr Phil's publicity machine. The CBS special was publicized but would have appealed to a smaller market than Dr Phil. I think Burke is on shaky ground.

i also think, sadly, that the truth will never come out no matter how much court time is wasted and how much money changes hands.

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I watched the A&E show. It definitely made me reconsider the Ramseys' involvement. I may just be easily swayed though because after the CBS thing I was convinced they were guilty. Aargh. I guess that's why the case is unsolved and will probably remain so. 

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It just occurred to me that JonBenet is about the same age as one of my cousins and a couple friends of mine.  It does make me wonder what would have been if she lived. 

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On 10/8/2016 at 0:44 AM, 47of74 said:

It just occurred to me that JonBenet is about the same age as one of my cousins and a couple friends of mine.  It does make me wonder what would have been if she lived. 

Jon Benet is the same age as my youngest daughter and, yes, it does make you think about what she would have been like.

Last night, they had a show on a repeat of Criminal Minds that must have been inspired by the Ramsey case.  The older brother of a bed-wetting kid gets mad because he broke his brother's model and maybe hits him in his fury.  He also stuffs broken model parts down the little brother's  throat.  A cop friend of the family help the parents cover it up, but not for long.  He's found out.

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