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JonBenét Ramsey


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Exactly, @HerNameIsBuffy! I would much rather believe someone entered the house and did those terrible things to JonBenét. I want that to be true. Sadly, I don't know how any reasonable person could look at all the evidence, do some research, and read the books, and decide it was an intruder. No offense to anyone, but it baffles me. 

My heart goes out to Burke, no matter what happened. In my opinion, he had shitty parents, too. 

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I watched the interview with Dr. Phil. I don't think it gives off the impression that he's guilty. I mean .. this is the only interview he's ever done about his sister, and that has to be difficult for him. Secondly, I'm the same type of person when I'm nervous or talking about something tough. I grin like a doped mental patient and get the giggles at the worst possible times. It's just how the anxiety presents itself. 

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I don't recall what year but after the murder, while Burke was still a minor, they were robbed and said they didn't have the alarm on.

if parents were convinced it was an intruder how would they ever leave the house alarm off as long as their son was still home?  

Watching part 1 now.  

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@HerNameIsBuffy If you are watching the CBS Special from last night, just wait. They will get to it.

Also, I apparently got my facts wrong. It has been determined that JB was NOT sexually assaulted. Therefore I will alter my scenario, but not my suspect. I still think Burke had/has some issues and is responsible.

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I hadn't formed an opinion as to who killed her before reading this thread. It seems unlikely that this case will be solved, but I'm having a hard time believing it wasn't either her mother, father or brother. 

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2 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

@HerNameIsBuffy If you are watching the CBS Special from last night, just wait. They will get to it.

Also, I apparently got my facts wrong. It has been determined that JB was NOT sexually assaulted. Therefore I will alter my scenario, but not my suspect. I still think Burke had/has some issues and is responsible.

I watched last night's and tonight.  I didn't see it but maybe I missed it?  That's one of the weird mysteries to me as why we don't know definitively by now?  People still go back and forth on whether they can hear it or not - I'd think we'd have the technology to clean up the tape by now?  

 

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Yep, the show last night had it cleaned up and bunches of people listening to it. They also talked to the 911 operator that took the original call. Interestingly enough, she was interviewed one time and was told she was under a gag order and has not discussed it in 20 years, until now. She heard two other voices....the conclusion was a male voice saying "We are not speaking to you", Patsy saying "What have you done...Dear Jesus" (or something about Jesus) and another voice asking (Burke?) "What did you find"

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Just now, Chickenbutt said:

Yep, the show last night had it cleaned up and bunches of people listening to it. They also talked to the 911 operator that took the original call. Interestingly enough, she was interviewed one time and was told she was under a gag order and has not discussed it in 20 years, until now. She heard two other voices....the conclusion was a male voice saying "We are not speaking to you", Patsy saying "What have you done...Dear Jesus" (or something about Jesus) and another voice asking (Burke?) "What did you find"

Thanks, I must've missed a lot.  Now I'm seeing each episode is in 2 parts I know I watched both of tonight but maybe missed part two of last night?  Idk - I'm kind of brain foggy at the moment due to pain meds so will check tomorrow.  

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The CBS special isn't the end all. There is a lot of confirmation bias and other click bait type journalism. 

Part of the reason I can't rule out an intruder is because of my interest in crime. Knowing how the east area rapist/original night rapist would hide in the house in advance. Or the other girl from JonBenet's dance studio was serially assaulted by someone who hid in the house for up to six hours. 

Also, police are lazy. They want to close cases, that's what they are rewarded for. So they will find someone who looks suspicious and make the evidence match. In this case, the responding officers were also incompetent. Or at the very least, inexperienced and biased.

Which is why I can't rule out an intruder. Though I have ruled out the theory that John Ramsey is a lizard person who sold JB into sex slavery and is covering for a vast international ring of pedophilia and government. 

I was 13 or so when this happened. I didn't care at the time. So what if some rich white girl who did pagents was killed. But sometime in my 20s, the mystery took hold. I'm still not quite as captivated by it as I am with The Springfield Three, but it's close. 

I don't know if it's likely that an intruder did it, but I can't rule it out. Patsy or John writing the weird ransom note makes no sense. An intruder writing that note makes no sense. Unless he got  there early and wrote it to mess with the family. 

I suspect that Patsy and John were buzzed, if not drunk when returning from the party the night before, so I take the "we put her right to bed" with a grain of salt. I also believe that they had no idea if JB would get up and eat pineapple. Nor do I believe patsy did the grocery shopping, so her not knowing things about her kids diet doesn't bother or phase me. 

This case is so weird. 

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@HerNameIsBuffy, the 911 call is pretty much the beginning of the first episode. 

@Maggie Mae, the Springfield Three has me totally perplexed! It's just so strange.

As far as the intruder theory, you have to be careful of what your source is. Team Ramsey did a fantastic job of getting in front of this with witnesses. And they were successful in skewing facts, like the DNA, to help their case. I'm not sure why an intruder would spend so much time in the house. If IDI, they would have been there for hours. I've never read another case when a kidnapper hung around the house for a while, used items from the house, and left the child in the house deceased. 

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11 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I missed the special last night - going to watch tonight's and then catch up with the first.  I've been reading about this since it happened and have never bought in to the BDI theory - so interested to see how it's presented.  For me it was always the ransom note and the fact that they didn't care about the timeline or nervous about how obvious it was they called cops and everyone in Boulder immediately.

i know it's creepy becusse real people, but I've always been fascinated by true crime stuff.  We so need threads on Lizzie Borden and the Jeffrey McDonald case.

eta I didn't see the Dr. Phil special yet but I co-sign @VelociRapture 's thoughts that demeanor in interview doesn't mean anything.  I'd come off like a total sociopath on tv, too, especially if the subject matter was deeply personal to me.

5

Add me to this. I'm an introvert by nature, and nearly everything out of my mouth is awkward and uncomfortable-sounding. 

That said -- 

I tend to draw on my own experiences to understand things, and it's probably not the best way to do stuff, but I do it. Anyway, when I was a kid, my sister and I -- who actually didn't get along all that well -- tended to draw close together when the world was tumultuous and our parents were fighting or our mom was in a manic rage. JBR was frequently going and getting into Burke's bed at night. That doesn't mean that JBR and Burke were BFFs as kids, but it definitely doesn't sound like he was her primary abuser. It sounds more like she got comfort from him at least from time to time.

Of course it couuld also be argued that he was tired of her constantly crowding into his bed and underfoot, invading his privacy.

Not knowing anyone involved and having precious few insights as to most of their personalities, it's not easy to say. 

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Oooh true crime. My secret guilty pleasure. I lurk at Webslueths a lot.

As for poor JonBenet, her family was completely dysfunctional with external appearances trumping everything else. I'm favouring accidental death due to Burke whacking her with the flashlight and JR stage managing PR in the cover up to protect the family image.

PR was a self-obsessed nut job who probably thought the ransom note would be taken at face value despite it being completely over the top. 

The most telling part of the CBS show for me was the interpretation of the language and body language in the interview JR and PR did - i.e. the only convincing bit was where they both denied killing their child. All else was mumbled, convoluted and confusing statements. And PR had lots of "tells" - shaking her head "no" when speaking and closing her eyes when she spoke.

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9 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

Yep, the show last night had it cleaned up and bunches of people listening to it. They also talked to the 911 operator that took the original call. Interestingly enough, she was interviewed one time and was told she was under a gag order and has not discussed it in 20 years, until now. She heard two other voices....the conclusion was a male voice saying "We are not speaking to you", Patsy saying "What have you done...Dear Jesus" (or something about Jesus) and another voice asking (Burke?) "What did you find"

I just finished up the first episode - the recording cut short and I had to watch it again On Demand to see the end. The "cleaned up" recording was still so incredibly unclear to me. I don't know how on earth they managed to hear anything at all. I guess that's why they're the professionals?

-------

As of right now - I don't think her parents had anything to do with her actual death. Gut feeling if I'm being honest - they were too adamant and convincing about that part for me to believe either of them actually harmed her that night.

There are a few details that have me unable to disregard the intruder theory at the moment:

- the brutality of the attack

- the broken window

- the suitcase by the broken window

It could have been staged, but those details just seem so... Off to me. 

The fact that she was wrapped in a blanket is very interesting to me to be honest. They didn't address that on night one, but I'd be interested in hearing their opinions on it. It could be seen as an involuntary protective or maternal gesture - you know, snuggling a child to comfort them or something. I know when my nephew was younger, I would snuggle him in a blankie to try and comfort him when he was crying. Or maybe someone couldn't stand to see what had happened. 

I mean, the blanket could mean absolutely nothing. It's just a detail I find interesting.

Off to watch episode two now.

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Here's the thing that sticks with me -- and granted, I only watched the DP interviews so far, I haven't had the opportunity to watch the rest -- what about the pineapple? She had undigested pineapple in her stomach. Who got it for her? Why did she get up? That bothers me. 

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16 hours ago, polecat said:

I don't think he intentionally killed her. I think the head trauma was inflicted accidentally, and everything else was staged to cover up the initial crime. 

Burke maybe CAN'T remember everything. I think it's entirely possible that his parents have thoroughly muddied his memories. They were really good at dissembling and obfuscating the press and the police; I can't even imagine what fuckwittery they exposed their kid to on a day-to-day basis. I'm not necessarily defending him -- but I grew up in a family with a lot of abuse and gaslighting, and I get how it can happen.

Sorry if this forces speculation into really creepy territory--but how do you think John accidentally inflicted the head trauma? Her skull is pretty smashed, and I would think an adult would understand that a blow like the could kill someone (unlike a child). And I'm not sure how trauma like that would happen from molestation. Do you think he was angry about something and became violent? 

I agree about everything else being staging to distract from what happened.

And now you guys got me falling down the rabbit hole of the Springfield Three...

And some more true crime recommendations: The Lori Erica Ruff case is so weird. And the William Herbert Wallace one is an oldie but a goodie. And it seems that some people have recently pretty much solved it.

 

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Ok. I'm at the end of the second episode. They made a very strong case for Burke in my opinion - especially in piecing together the potential chain of events that Christmas night. 

I am relieved that they kind of ruled out sexual abuse in general. That was a massive roadblock for me being able to accept that her parents had taken part in a coverup - I just couldn't wrap my mind around a parent willingly sexually assaulting their child's corpse as part of a coverup. Anything is possible of course, it was just a massive roadblock for me. One of the Doctors kind of ruling out sexual abuse clears the way for me to be able to understand and accept the coverup angle better.

So, my general thoughts after this particular show-

I believe its most likely that someone within the family was involved directly in her death. It's possible that one of both of her parents were involved, but I find Burke may be the most likely out of the three. 

I do find myself agreeing with Dr. Lee's opinion - I don't think anyone intentionally meant to kill or severely harm JonBenét. Like they pointed out earlier, Burke had hit his sister before and nothing had happened. I think it's entirely realistic to imagine that a 9 year-old wouldn't think twice about hitting an obnoxious sibling and not realizing they could cause significant harm in doing so. 

I think it's incredibly likely that Patsy and John panicked completely upon seeing what had happened - I mean, what parent wouldn't panic to a certain extent in that situation? They likely wouldn't have known about the alleged laws preventing a child under 10 from being prosecuted for that type of crime in Boulder when the death occurred either - meaning there probably wasn't a need for a coverup if Burke was responsible. I think it's clear from interviews that they loved both their children a great deal. And I do think it's entirely possible they could have done what they could to protect their remaining child while also deeply morning the loss of their daughter. 

At the end of the day, I highly doubt there will ever be a real resolution to this case. Too much time has passed and there were too many fuck ups - from the Police to the DA to the media and to the family. I doubt that poor child will ever get justice at this point.

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10 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Ok. I'm at the end of the second episode. They made a very strong case for Burke in my opinion - especially in piecing together the potential chain of events that Christmas night. 

I am relieved that they kind of ruled out sexual abuse in general. That was a massive roadblock for me being able to accept that her parents had taken part in a coverup - I just couldn't wrap my mind around a parent willingly sexually assaulting their child's corpse as part of a coverup. Anything is possible of course, it was just a massive roadblock for me. One of the Doctors kind of ruling out sexual abuse clears the way for me to be able to understand and accept the coverup angle better.

So, my general thoughts after this particular show-

I believe its most likely that someone within the family was involved directly in her death. It's possible that one of both of her parents were involved, but I find Burke may be the most likely out of the three. 

I do find myself agreeing with Dr. Lee's opinion - I don't think anyone intentionally meant to kill or severely harm JonBenét. Like they pointed out earlier, Burke had hit his sister before and nothing had happened. I think it's entirely realistic to imagine that a 9 year-old wouldn't think twice about hitting an obnoxious sibling and not realizing they could cause significant harm in doing so. 

I think it's incredibly likely that Patsy and John panicked completely upon seeing what had happened - I mean, what parent wouldn't panic to a certain extent in that situation? They likely wouldn't have known about the alleged laws preventing a child under 10 from being prosecuted for that type of crime in Boulder when the death occurred either - meaning there probably wasn't a need for a coverup if Burke was responsible. I think it's clear from interviews that they loved both their children a great deal. And I do think it's entirely possible they could have done what they could to protect their remaining child while also deeply morning the loss of their daughter. 

At the end of the day, I highly doubt there will ever be a real resolution to this case. Too much time has passed and there were too many fuck ups - from the Police to the DA to the media and to the family. I doubt that poor child will ever get justice at this point.

I agree with all of this. Too many fuck ups for anyone to really know.  However, I do believe Patsy had more to do with the cover up with John. I think he only found out after the fact. All those interviews, I just don't get the vibe from him that he had anything to do with it. 

 

Also, I wonder why Johns other children were never questioned. They're much older and could have talked about their baby siblings behavior and interactions. Soooooooo many things went wrong with this case. I just hope after all this 20th anniversary stuff people can finally let JonBenet rest in peace.

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Patsy and Burke's fingerprints were found on the pineapple bowl. I think the most likely scenario is that Patsy fixed Burke a snack (it was fresh pineapple), and JB took some (it was her favorite snack). As for why JB was strangled and not taken to the hospital? Maybe they just panicked, but maybe they knew Burke would say too much in court-ordered counselling about family issues. I hope it's the former.

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30 minutes ago, OyToTheVey said:

I agree with all of this. Too many fuck ups for anyone to really know.  However, I do believe Patsy had more to do with the cover up with John. I think he only found out after the fact. All those interviews, I just don't get the vibe from him that he had anything to do with it. 

 

Also, I wonder why Johns other children were never questioned. They're much older and could have talked about their baby siblings behavior and interactions. Soooooooo many things went wrong with this case. I just hope after all this 20th anniversary stuff people can finally let JonBenet rest in peace.

I'm leaning towards John knowing about how she died from the very start - I don't think he witnessed his daughter's death, but I do think he knew immediately and actively took part in the coverup from the start. I don't see why else he would have ordered their plane made ready right after JonBenét's body was found, why he would help Patsy stonewall the police, how he could have immediately found his daughter's body in that basement, etc.

 

22 minutes ago, 16strong said:

Patsy and Burke's fingerprints were found on the pineapple bowl. I think the most likely scenario is that Patsy fixed Burke a snack (it was fresh pineapple), and JB took some (it was her favorite snack). As for why JB was strangled and not taken to the hospital? Maybe they just panicked, but maybe they knew Burke would say too much in court-ordered counselling about family issues. I hope it's the former.

I think they might have known she was dead at that point. I know the exerts said on the show that she could have appeared alive when she was actually dead due to the heart continuing to beat after the fatal traumatic brain injury... But that makes more sense with an intruder theory if an intruder really wanted to ensure she was dead. If her parents had suspected even the tiniest bit that she was still alive I think she would have been taken to the Hospital immediately - not strangled to death or staged in the basement to appear she had been killed by an outsider.

I think it's possible that John and Patsy really had gone to bed and Burke went downstairs to get a snack at some point. Patsy could have cut the fruit up earlier and placed it in the fridge - my in-laws do that all the time to save time and keep the fruit fresh.

That would explain both sets of fingerprints on the bowl, but only Burke's on the spoon. It would also explain why Burke may have allegedly poked his sister hard with some object (like the train track) after she received the fatal blow - he was alone and wasn't sure if his sister was ok, so he poked her to see if she was just faking.

I don't know how long it would take for her heart to stop beating, but it's possible it had stopped by the time his parents found out what happened and the strangling was staged as a way to draw attention away from the actual cause of death. 

(Disclaimer: All this is just a theory.)

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Regarding the broken window, how does one climb through a window, but there are still cobwebs everywhere? And that intruder must be very thin. 

1 hour ago, 16strong said:

Patsy and Burke's fingerprints were found on the pineapple bowl. I think the most likely scenario is that Patsy fixed Burke a snack (it was fresh pineapple), and JB took some (it was her favorite snack). As for why JB was strangled and not taken to the hospital? Maybe they just panicked, but maybe they knew Burke would say too much in court-ordered counselling about family issues. I hope it's the former.

Perhaps it was one of these. I'd also like to add that they are obsessed with their image. They may not have taken her in or called 911 right away, because they didn't want people to look at them differently. Also, if there was prior abuse, that's a common reason for parents to cover up an accidental death. 

Another point I have to continue to remind myself of, is that just because I can't imagine parents doing certain things, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I follow many child murders. You'd be surprised and disgusted by what some parents have done to their children. :(

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So I just finished watching the Dr. Phil episode I missed yesterday. What strikes me is that vast differences in interpretations of the evidence. Candice DeLong just dismissed the theory of Dr. Lee that the DNA on the panties could have come from the manufacturing process of the panties. In fact she compared it to aliens coming down and being involved. Yet last night, Dr. Lee took a brand new pair of panties out of the package and found DNA on them. That is just one example of the disparity in interpretation. So strange.

I agree that this case will never be solved. There are too many mistakes by everyone involved, PD, DA, media, Ramsey family etc.

Did anyone else find John Mark Carr the creepiest of creepy?

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i wonder about some things i have recently read and heard and have some thoughts...the underwear was a much too big size 12, probably not Jonbenet's, she was probably a size 6-7 or so. where did they come from? did she have an accident at the Christmas party (or somewhere else even) and someone gave her a pair of their child's underwear? maybe the White's had an old pair there for some reason? maybe that's where foreign dna could have come into play...but...wasn't dna found under her fingernails? who's could that have been? the dna is a real sticking point for me, but...my theory is that Burke was having some pineapple, something happened and he hit Jonbenet with the flashlight...she is unconscious, but he doesn't know what is happening. after a bit he tried to wake her, maybe he was shaking her and then he poked her hard with the traintrack, thinking surely that would wake her up. eventually he had to wake the parents and tell them and they did everything from there. 

and yeah, John Mark Carr is scary creepy, but i found the gardener creepy too...does anyone know where i can watch the dr phil interviews?

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The DNA under her fingernails....I am trying to think of an alternative explanation. I wonder about the Christmas party at the White's house. Were the kids with the adults? Could JB have been playing with other kids? Playing tag, reaching out to grab another kid and drug her fingers across his skin? There could be so many explanations.

I cannot imagine that if it was an intruder, that this was his only crime, or he has never been caught and his DNA is not in the system. Who has a clean past, commits this crime, then goes on to never commit another crime? Or at least never get caught?

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