Counting On Season Two - Part 2

[prayawaythefundie]

2 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

Brownie points for taking time to look all of that up. How long did that take you? I bet Michelle could not even have given you those details. 

Are you kidding? Michelle probably wouldn't have remembered all the names, let alone figured ou their respective ages.

[Four is Enough]

45 minutes ago, prayawaythefundie said:

Are you kidding? Michelle probably wouldn't have remembered all the names, let alone figured ou their respective ages.

I always thought that Michelle was, in the introduction, reading the names off a list, rather than naming all of her children in order.

[Wenny]

4 hours ago, halcionne said:

Yep. I expect Johannah to shed a few tears over losing her sister mom.

Josh was Joe's buddy; they're seven years apart. John David was Josiah's buddy; they're six and a half years apart. Jill was Joy-Anna's buddy; 6.5 year age difference again.

Why is Joy-Anna hyphenated, but John David isn't?  

Jessa was Jeremiah's buddy; six years apart. Jinger was Jed's buddy; only five years apart. Jana was Jason's buddy; they are ten years apart. I'm betting Jana was Michelle's right hand and their efforts were spread pretty thin until the other girls were a bit older and able to be more helpful. Jill took James and still had 4yo Joy-Anna.

It's at this point that Josh turned 14, and I don't need to remind anyone what was going on in the house that year. 

Jessa got Justin in addition to 5yo Jeer. Jana "asked" to take Jackson, iirc, while still looking after 5yo Jason. Perhaps someone in charge (who the fuck was in charge?) felt that 11yo Jinger wouldn't be able to manage two kids, but both Jessa and Jill had two at eleven. I'm hypothethesizing on that, just to be clear.

Jinger (now 13) got Johannah in addition to 8yo Jed. By the time Jill got Jenni at 17, 10yo Joy may have been helping 6yo James more so that Jill could help Jana cook or something (I'm guessing again). By this time, 16yo Jessa had 10yo Jeer and 6yo Justin when Michelle handed Jordyn over.

Josh, JD, Joseph, and Josiah were goofing off doing "boys' work" with JB, all this time, I suppose. 

Finally, 20yo Jana got premature Josie while still in charge of 10yo Jason and 6yo Jackson, and the howlers continued aging up into Jim Bob's *jurisdiction,* rme.

Those poor J'slaves. They basically didn't get childhoods at all.

Bolded is mine. I think Jackson may be to hyper for Jinger to handle. 5 year olds are tornadoes 

[halcionne]

3 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

Brownie points for taking time to look all of that up. How long did that take you? I bet Michelle could not even have given you those details. 

LOL it didn't take long at all, thanks to the power of my spreadsheet!  I have it set up in such a way that I can plug in any date and see everyone's ages on that date. Before anyone judges me too harshly for being such an oddball, let me say that I simply note new information as I come across it and then I can quickly refer to it when I need to remember some obscure tidbit. Because I like to have my facts straight when taking down fundies. They're really so outrageous that exaggerating is not only unnecessary, I feel it weakens one's argument.

Michelle had Teri Maxwell's Managers of Their Homes to keep everything organized. Spreadsheet beats Post-It note! 

[SassyPants]

5 hours ago, halcionne said:

Yep. I expect Johannah to shed a few tears over losing her sister mom.

Josh was Joe's buddy; they're seven years apart. John David was Josiah's buddy; they're six and a half years apart. Jill was Joy-Anna's buddy; 6.5 year age difference again.

Why is Joy-Anna hyphenated, but John David isn't?  

Jessa was Jeremiah's buddy; six years apart. Jinger was Jed's buddy; only five years apart. Jana was Jason's buddy; they are ten years apart. I'm betting Jana was Michelle's right hand and their efforts were spread pretty thin until the other girls were a bit older and able to be more helpful. Jill took James and still had 4yo Joy-Anna.

It's at this point that Josh turned 14, and I don't need to remind anyone what was going on in the house that year. 

Jessa got Justin in addition to 5yo Jeer. Jana "asked" to take Jackson, iirc, while still looking after 5yo Jason. Perhaps someone in charge (who the fuck was in charge?) felt that 11yo Jinger wouldn't be able to manage two kids, but both Jessa and Jill had two at eleven. I'm hypothethesizing on that, just to be clear.

Jinger (now 13) got Johannah in addition to 8yo Jed. By the time Jill got Jenni at 17, 10yo Joy may have been helping 6yo James more so that Jill could help Jana cook or something (I'm guessing again). By this time, 16yo Jessa had 10yo Jeer and 6yo Justin when Michelle handed Jordyn over.

Josh, JD, Joseph, and Josiah were goofing off doing "boys' work" with JB, all this time, I suppose. 

Finally, 20yo Jana got premature Josie while still in charge of 10yo Jason and 6yo Jackson, and the howlers continued aging up into Jim Bob's *jurisdiction,* rme.

Those poor J'slaves. They basically didn't get childhoods at all.

I wonder why the older Jessa, had the younger twin Jer VS the older twin Jed. If this is true, how unDuggaresque.

3 minutes ago, halcionne said:

LOL it didn't take long at all, thanks to the power of my spreadsheet!  I have it set up in such a way that I can plug in any date and see everyone's ages on that date. Before anyone judges me too harshly for being such an oddball, let me say that I simply note new information as I come across it and then I can quickly refer to it when I need to remember some obscure tidbit. Because I like to have my facts straight when taking down fundies. They're really so outrageous that exaggerating is not only unnecessary, I feel it weakens one's argument.

Michelle had Teri Maxwell's Managers of Their Homes to keep everything organized. Spreadsheet beats Post-It note! 

Did not mean to exaggerate with the ages, but I also do not make spreadsheets, and was not inclined to look up the exact birthdates. TBT, on 12/31/98 Michelle WAS a great deal busier (or should have been) vs any day in 2016. And that was my point, which IMHO, is not weak.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

On 9/4/2016 at 10:04 AM, ClaraOswin said:

They are all so busy, eh? Yeah...I'll bet.

That mirror isn't going to look at itself. 

 

As to the cooking, Jana & Jill did most of the cooking I recall one of the girls Jill or Jessa passing on the bread recipe to Joy, saying she would be taking over a lot of kitchen duties. I think Jessa & Jinger did the laundry & organizing the stupid "family" closet, while Jana and Jill did the cooking.  I wonder how this house is going to run with 4 of the 5 oldest girls gone? Thankfully for Jana,  Joy is almost 19 and able to help a lot. Sadly for Johannah at what 11(?) she is going to be required to do a lot as well, But by years end they will be down to 8 kids under 18 and the youngest will be 7, the lost girls are the only ones that need real supervision any more.  The Howlers need to be educated and guided but they don't need a "baby sitter" anymore.  Michelle SHOULD be able to handle these kids on her own, but won't.  

 

[calimojo]

2 hours ago, halcionne said:

LOL it didn't take long at all, thanks to the power of my spreadsheet!  I have it set up in such a way that I can plug in any date and see everyone's ages on that date. Before anyone judges me too harshly for being such an oddball, let me say that I simply note new information as I come across it and then I can quickly refer to it when I need to remember some obscure tidbit. Because I like to have my facts straight when taking down fundies. They're really so outrageous that exaggerating is not only unnecessary, I feel it weakens one's argument.

Michelle had Teri Maxwell's Managers of Their Homes to keep everything organized. Spreadsheet beats Post-It note! 

Great info @halcionne but who was exaggerating?  It seems from what your wrote that the older kids were all shouldering some degree of responsibility for helping/raising their younger siblings by the time they were around 7-10.  And with each new birth,  their responsibilities grew.  I also suspect that in addition to having her own buddy group,  Jana was charged with more or less 'running' a lot of the day to day stuff around the house. 

 

Again,  there is nothing wrong with Kids having to help out with younger siblings, nor is there anything wrong with kids have assigned chores or jurisdictions.  But it would seem that Michelle just took it way to far and instead of still having some sort of oversight,  she turned the kids over and turned over the cooking and cleaning and that was that.  Once they could afford it,  she had tutors for homeschooling, help with laundry, in addition to a child army to do the rest.    I think Michelle was probably busy with other things.  She did a lot of public appearances and speeches, both on her own and with JB.  They 'wrote' a few books and coordinated their public life.  And JB and M might both have worked together on managing the business end of some of their properties.  I don't think Michelle is exactly lazy,  I just think she exploited her older children to raise her younger kids.  And for her to give the impression that she is some sort of ultimate SAHM is ridiculous.  She is a working mom.  She has been ever since the show started.  But, instead of using daycare, or hiring in some adult nannies who would have been equipped to help raise children,  she exploited Jill, Jana, Jessa and Jinger and left the care of her last half to them. 

And, imo,  she didn't properly monitor how well they were doing with their parenting of HER children.  We could all see how neglected Jordyn and Jenny were and how ill behaved most of the younger crew were.  And we could all see how perfectly coifed the older girls were in their 'fundie fashion rags' and long flowing hair and excessive eye liner.  They weren't paying attention to those kids adequately. 

 

But it isn't their fault.  It is JB and M's.  They fully bear the brunt of everything with these kids.  They have done far more wrong, dangerous, neglectful, hurtful, inappropriate parenting than they have done good. 

 

It is funny and don't laugh too much, but I have recently watched a few re-runs of Petticoat Junction. That show re-ran all the time when I was little and I loved it then.  Anyway,  in a recent episode that I watched,  the Mom is talking about her youngest, who is getting married.  She makes a rather progressive statement about parenting that basically says,  You give them your love and your guidance,  you show them what is wrong and right, but you can't give them your thoughts.  They have to think for themselves.  This was a show that was the epitome of family values in the late 1960's and despite lots of typical gender expectations it showed a great deal of tolerance in other ways.  (And of course I don't think there was anyone of color on the entire series).  Anyway,  when I heard what the mom said about thoughts,  It just made me think of the Duggar kids.  From Birth,  they have had their thoughts AND then feelings regulated.  And while M and JB weren't hands on about raising them,  they still must have been involved with the indoctrination in some way. 

[iweartanktops]

4 hours ago, halcionne said:

LOL it didn't take long at all, thanks to the power of my spreadsheet!  I have it set up in such a way that I can plug in any date and see everyone's ages on that date. Before anyone judges me too harshly for being such an oddball, let me say that I simply note new information as I come across it and then I can quickly refer to it when I need to remember some obscure tidbit. Because I like to have my facts straight when taking down fundies. They're really so outrageous that exaggerating is not only unnecessary, I feel it weakens one's argument.

Michelle had Teri Maxwell's Managers of Their Homes to keep everything organized. Spreadsheet beats Post-It note! 

This is fabulous! I really, really want to see these spreadsheets. 

It's great to see you posting again! 

[halcionne]

On 9/4/2016 at 0:15 PM, iweartanktops said:

When you pop in to post facts, I always picture a bunch of spreadsheets. I'm so curious about how you file and organize your fundie information.

It's just one page* and it's a mess, but here's a screenshot. I blurred the DOBs even though they're practically a matter of public record.

*with over a thousand lines 

6 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I wonder why the older Jessa, had the younger twin Jer VS the older twin Jed. If this is true, how unDuggaresque.

Did not mean to exaggerate with the ages, but I also do not make spreadsheets, and was not inclined to look up the exact birthdates. TBT, on 12/31/98 Michelle WAS a great deal busier (or should have been) vs any day in 2016. And that was my point, which IMHO, is not weak.

Sorry, Sassy, that comment wasn't directed at you. I was trying to justify my strange addiction hobby.  I'm the one who's prone to exaggerate when I don't have my notes!

[prayawaythefundie]

@halcionne: Very impressive! You might be mistaken for a stalker by some but us Fjers know it's all for fundy analysis

[anotherone]

40 minutes ago, halcionne said:

It's just one page* and it's a mess, but here's a screenshot. I blurred the DOBs even though they're practically a matter of public record.

 

If you search the Duggars on Wikipedia they list all the birthdays.  It's funny you were showing more respect for them (by trying to keep bdays private) than they show their own kids.

[backyard sylph]

I read a lot of the show discussion, but still haven't watched last week's. I turned it on thinking I'd listen while working on a blog post about life, death, August, and George Benson, what it all means, but I have to keep pausing because I feel like my fingernails are being pulled out.

I'm thinking I need to watch it on mute with closed captioning, but then I can't really work on my blog post.

Here is where I am paused. Jeremy has just said something about "delaying the physical." I'm a very physical person, so I'd be all over that guy if I didn't probably dislike him a great deal and also he'd probably say things that annoyed me. So I guess I feel for Jinger, as she must have an inkling by now what comes next. Endlessly talking about not having sex, and then having it, I mean.

Don't get me wrong; if people want to have sex only in marriage, that's for them to say. Just maybe less often on TV. But at least most people are having hand sex, only not in the creepy sign language way of Josh and Anna. I really don't know what my point is, at this point.

Do I keep watching, muted, or keep mostly just listening, or just give up? I can't decide.

Okay, he's actually saying it in a way that is logical and sensible. These are real reasons for strict personal boundaries. I'm just bored of hearing about it, and slightly creeped out.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, halcionne said:

It's just one page* and it's a mess, but here's a screenshot. I blurred the DOBs even though they're practically a matter of public record.

*with over a thousand lines 

Sorry, Sassy, that comment wasn't directed at you. I was trying to justify my strange addiction hobby.  I'm the one who's prone to exaggerate when I don't have my notes!

No problem :)!!

[HarleyQuinn]

I know Johannah is Jinger's buddy, but they don't seem very close, do they? I can recall Jackson running to Jana after he got lost at the airport. Jenni crying for Jill on more than one occasion. And Jordyn sitting on Jessa's lap or cuddling quite a bit, but never anything with Johannah and Jinger.

[calimojo]

I agree, Jinger has never been shown doing much with her buddies.  LIke I said,  I never got the feeling that Jinger was as baby crazy as Jill for example.  And of course none of us know this for sure, but if she isn't just imagine how she must dread the idea of having baby after baby.  I truly hope that if she is not interested in having a bunch of kids, that she and Jeremy have time to privately discuss that before they are fast tracked down the aisle. 

[nst]

30 minutes ago, calimojo said:

I agree, Jinger has never been shown doing much with her buddies.  LIke I said,  I never got the feeling that Jinger was as baby crazy as Jill for example.  And of course none of us know this for sure, but if she isn't just imagine how she must dread the idea of having baby after baby.  I truly hope that if she is not interested in having a bunch of kids, that she and Jeremy have time to privately discuss that before they are fast tracked down the aisle. 

i think it's because she has a dead soul and has no life 

her birthday wishes to Jeremy solidify that for me 

ok not quite a dead soul - more someone who has no personality what so ever and it's evident on what she says and it's a soul depressing 

[calimojo]

I don't want to judge Jinger's personality or lack thereof based on these lame videos.  They are all so stiff and unnatural in those ridiculous videos.  And she has JB and M as her role model and these are the people who say the same three things about each of their children.  I just wish they would stop with the stupid videos.  It isn't like she didn't call and talk to him personally on his birthday.  They shared their own birthday greeting.  But it is so  dumb to post a video as if they are actually talking to that person.    Every time I see one of these painful videos, I just imagine how much the kids much hate doing these. 

 

But to your point @nst, Why don't they try to do something more personal?   Even just one or two small unique comments would make the messages more personal. 

 

What I like about how Jinger is handling things so far: 

• She kept the relationship under wraps for quite some time.  Good for her.
• She hasn't started posting on social media.  Maybe that means she isn't going to start doing that or she is only going to share with intimate friends and family
• She seems fairly relaxed in terms of physical contact with him.  I don't much like the guy, from what I have seen, but I do think that physically, they are much more affectionate than the others have been.  They haven't done that weird hand holding that Josh and Anna did.  And she isn't all stiff and rigid like Jessa was.  I don't remember about Jill much. 
• She seems to be sticking to her desire to have a smaller (by comparison) wedding.  This isn't known for sure yet since the details aren't really being shared, but she hasn't  yet been pimping out every detail along the way to People magazine. 

What I dislike:

• That incessant staring at her man every time he opens his mouth. 
• The fake 'infatuation" stuff.  Some is probably real, but I think it is being exaggerated for the show and I hate that she feels she has to do that
• Her making a point of saying "I love kids.  I want a whole houseful of kids".  Again,  not sure what choice she has but to say that at this point, but it would just be so incredibly refreshing if one of those kids would say "I don't know how many kids we will want, but we definitely want to take a few years to really get to know each other before we start"  Or "I probably only want a few kids".   I think Josh actually said something about having a 'few' kids one time, but he must have been corrected because he went back to the family line soon after that. 
• The silly, immature infatuation stuff.  There is a way they could show her being totally in love without making her seem like a 12 year old
• That whole idea that because she is in love she can't simultaneously do anything else.  People in the real world fall in love, Plan weddings, work through grief, Deal with Disappointment, continue their education, etc all while also working full or part time, working around the house, etc. 

 

[Lizzybet]

15 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

Brownie points for taking time to look all of that up. How long did that take you? I bet Michelle could not even have given you those details. 

I have some recollection of Jim Bob being asked the days of birth for each of the kids, and he managed it, pretty well, in fact. 

I wondered then and now how he did it, because aside from not seeming at all bright, I didn't think he'd care enough about each of the kids to even try to file away that information.

i wish I could remember the context. It was quite a trick!

 

[nst]

Rewatching Jinge's video to Jeremy 

the public broadcast again - why for the world if not for the tv show

why do we have to fear god - these people think fearing god is the be all and end all and jinge in particular 

ok we don't know what she prayed for as a child and i don't care - you care because you are broadcasting to the world 

why is it so important that Jeremy knows Christ and we have to hear it - she is attracted to a man who tries to be God - I think they are taught to want that - fine - but keep it to yourself - unless they have a show - would she go on about this 

regarding the coming days reference - I think it's just a euphemism  - 

[Bim]

Does anyone know where else I can watch Jinger's video for Jeremy's birthday? The link on the Duggar website just isn't working. 

[MarblesMom]

https://www.facebook.com/duggarfamilyofficial/

They are nothing, if not ever true, to their FB presence.

[nastyhobbitses]

19 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

That mirror isn't going to look at itself. 

 

As to the cooking, Jana & Jill did most of the cooking I recall one of the girls Jill or Jessa passing on the bread recipe to Joy, saying she would be taking over a lot of kitchen duties. I think Jessa & Jinger did the laundry & organizing the stupid "family" closet, while Jana and Jill did the cooking.  I wonder how this house is going to run with 4 of the 5 oldest girls gone? Thankfully for Jana,  Joy is almost 19 and able to help a lot. Sadly for Johannah at what 11(?) she is going to be required to do a lot as well, But by years end they will be down to 8 kids under 18 and the youngest will be 7, the lost girls are the only ones that need real supervision any more.  The Howlers need to be educated and guided but they don't need a "baby sitter" anymore.  Michelle SHOULD be able to handle these kids on her own, but won't.  

 

At this point, Michelle probably barely knows them from Adam, and they likely have a minimal bond with her. She spent most of their childhoods schtupping Jim Bob to make a new Precious Blessing, occasionally pretending to be affectionate with them for the cameras, and otherwise never really bothering to raise them (except for Precious Second Coming Miracle Golden Child Josie). It's a bit like a reverse Sunk Cost Fallacy: she's put minimal investment into these kids thus far, why start now?

And as much as I snarked on Carlin and the other Bates girls for their teeth-gnashing and wailing when Michael moved to Chicago, I do wonder how much the Duggar kids are affected by their sister-moms leaving home and having their own biological children. We know that Jenni was hit pretty hard by Jill leaving, but I wonder how the other kids might feel about the women who raised them basically running off with a strange man and then "replacing" them with new babies.

[nokidsmom]

7 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

At this point, Michelle probably barely knows them from Adam, and they likely have a minimal bond with her. She spent most of their childhoods schtupping Jim Bob to make a new Precious Blessing, occasionally pretending to be affectionate with them for the cameras, and otherwise never really bothering to raise them (except for Precious Second Coming Miracle Golden Child Josie). It's a bit like a reverse Sunk Cost Fallacy: she's put minimal investment into these kids thus far, why start now?

And as much as I snarked on Carlin and the other Bates girls for their teeth-gnashing and wailing when Michael moved to Chicago, I do wonder how much the Duggar kids are affected by their sister-moms leaving home and having their own biological children. We know that Jenni was hit pretty hard by Jill leaving, but I wonder how the other kids might feel about the women who raised them basically running off with a strange man and then "replacing" them with new babies.

Interesting observation about the kids' reactions when their sister-mom sibling leaves home to get married and start their own families.   It's closer to watching their own parent get married and have other children versus watching a sibling.  Relying on the buddy system, which to some degree is needed in mega families, when taken too far appears to make the children bond more with their sibling-parent thereby causing real turmoil when they are separated from that sibling. 

In spite of being an intact family, these reactions to a sibling moving out is closer to what children would experience when a divorced parent remarries and has a child with a stepparent.

[nastyhobbitses]

1 minute ago, nokidsmom said:

Interesting observation about the kids' reactions when their sister-mom sibling leaves home to get married and start their own families.   It's closer to watching their own parent get married and have other children versus watching a sibling.  Relying on the buddy system, which to some degree is needed in mega families, when taken too far appears to make the children bond more with their sibling-parent thereby causing real turmoil when they are separated from that sibling. 

In spite of being an intact family, these reactions to a sibling moving out is closer to what children would experience when a divorced parent remarries and has a child with a stepparent.

That's exactly the analogy I had in mind with this situation. Most of the stepfamily situations I am intimately familiar with had some turmoil, but the stepparent always made a very conscious effort to show that his/her stepchildren were just as much his/her children and family as the new biological child was. I don't see Ben, Derick, or Jeremy doing that. The interactions I've seen between the SILs and the sibling-children seem more like the interactions I'd have with my uncles when they first married into the family and didn't know me that well than like essentially a father figure bonding with essentially stepchildren.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

19 hours ago, halcionne said:

It's just one page* and it's a mess, but here's a screenshot. I blurred the DOBs even though they're practically a matter of public record.

*with over a thousand lines 

Sorry, Sassy, that comment wasn't directed at you. I was trying to justify my strange addiction hobby.  I'm the one who's prone to exaggerate when I don't have my notes!

Your spread sheets make my OCD very happy!  There is NOTHING I hare more than sloppy spreadsheets, all your columns are centered (I like them to be either all centered, all right justified or left justified).  Logical color coding, everything capitalized, I'm a freak about spreadsheets and will spend too much time fixing other peoples to make them look acceptable to me.