Sectarianism

[JesusFightClub]

Not sure if this folder is the right one, but I wonder is there a lot of Protestant vs Catholic sectarianism in the US? If so, how does it manifest itself? And, are fundies involved?

I was born and brought up on the west coast of Scotland and we borrowed a lot of problems from the Troubles in Northern Ireland. It was always and still is a big thing are you Protestant or Catholic, stuff like what school do you go to, what football team do you support. You don't have to know anything about religion to sing sectarian songs in the town centre after a night out.

It gets all tied up with politics and other things. But I know many Americans supported the IRA in the form of NORAID. Not judging, just saying. How did (does) the conflict appear to Americans? What would a fundy think?

[FaustianSlip]

Well, I was an Irish studies minor as an undergrad and wrote my Master's dissertation on sectarianism and segregation in Belfast since the Good Friday Agreement. I'm also, at present, neither Protestant nor Catholic, so my views might be a little different than the "average" American view. I think in most places, certainly the places I've lived, the Protestant/Catholic thing, as it manifests itself in places like N. Ireland and western Scotland, isn't on most people's radar, perhaps because the conflict has cooled significantly (or so it seems to most of us in the States- I'm aware that it's not really that simple). In places like Boston, you will sometimes hear people say things (or see bumper stickers) about getting the six counties back or whatever, but most of them are clueless and don't know much (anything?) about the politics involved in the conflict as it is today, or the fact that I don't think Dublin particularly wants to inherit the North, given that they've got their own problems at the moment.

What you say about not needing to know anything about religion to sing sectarian songs and get caught up in the culture is completely true. Belfast, for instance, has had an influx of immigrants from both Eastern Europe and Asia, people who don't really have a vested interest in the conflict, which you'd think would help ease segregation, right? Not so much. When I did my graduate research, I ran across a lot of studies indicating that because the two communities are so thoroughly segregated now, down to things as basic as sports teams, youth activities, particular roads and shops and so on, new immigrants are basically forced to pick a side and throw their allegiance in with one community or the other as a means of integrating. So you get Chinese immigrants who don't likely know or care about plantation or Ulster Scots or anything like that who end up siding with one community or the other because there's virtually no way to walk the line between the two. Also interestingly, Belfast is actually more segregated now than it was in the 1940s or 50s. The violence had a ratchet effect, where outbreaks would happen, people would segregate more, and even after it died down, they would never really reach the previous levels of integration. Depressing, really.

When I look at N. Ireland, I draw a lot of comparisons between Israel and Palestine. On the one hand, it gives me some hope that there might be some kind of peace in that region, but on the other, I can only hope it doesn't take hundreds of years to get there. I lived in the UK as a kid when the IRA were setting off bombs in London, and I had a good friend from Ireland proper who drove through the Omagh city center very shortly before that bomb went off. I have no patience for the whole IRA as freedom fighters trope, but likewise, there were some pretty terrible things done to people in the North at the hands of the British, so I don't think anyone's free from guilt, really. I've also found it interesting that some Brits I've met who have had very, very strong feelings of opposition to the IRA and Republicanism are quite happy to vilify Israel and side with the Palestinians, to the point of saying that bus bombings and such are justified and excusable. They haven't generally been very pleased when I've asked whether they feel the same about the Real IRA.

[maybeizfundie]

All of the above is really interesting. And I've always thought that there were plenty of people who weren't fighting out of religious belief necessarily--that at some point it became cultural so even people for whom the religious part meant little stuck with the divisiveness.

Although there is certainly anti-Catholicism here in the States, I've never seen sectarianism anything close to like what went on in Ireland. Jack Chick (those icky cartoon "tracts") is probably the worst of what we have here.

There are plenty of Protestants who believe Catholicism is seriously flawed, theologically and socially, and vice versa. And plenty of heated internet debates, lol. But ultimately I don't think it affects daily life in any large way. In our area, there's a good mix of Catholics and Protestants (of all types). There might be particular families who would strongly object to an intermarriage or something, but in general where someone goes to church on Sundays doesn't affect how they interact with the rest of the community on a day to day basis. Protestants regularly send their children to Catholic schools around here, and even among the fundie-lite group, when it comes to social issues/ministry, it's not uncommon for them to work with local Catholic parishes.

[JesusFightClub]

Well, I was an Irish studies minor as an undergrad and wrote my Master's dissertation on sectarianism and segregation in Belfast since the Good Friday Agreement. I'm also, at present, neither Protestant nor Catholic, so my views might be a little different than the "average" American view. I think in most places, certainly the places I've lived, the Protestant/Catholic thing, as it manifests itself in places like N. Ireland and western Scotland, isn't on most people's radar, perhaps because the conflict has cooled significantly (or so it seems to most of us in the States- I'm aware that it's not really that simple). In places like Boston, you will sometimes hear people say things (or see bumper stickers) about getting the six counties back or whatever, but most of them are clueless and don't know much (anything?) about the politics involved in the conflict as it is today, or the fact that I don't think Dublin particularly wants to inherit the North, given that they've got their own problems at the moment.

What you say about not needing to know anything about religion to sing sectarian songs and get caught up in the culture is completely true. Belfast, for instance, has had an influx of immigrants from both Eastern Europe and Asia, people who don't really have a vested interest in the conflict, which you'd think would help ease segregation, right? Not so much. When I did my graduate research, I ran across a lot of studies indicating that because the two communities are so thoroughly segregated now, down to things as basic as sports teams, youth activities, particular roads and shops and so on, new immigrants are basically forced to pick a side and throw their allegiance in with one community or the other as a means of integrating. So you get Chinese immigrants who don't likely know or care about plantation or Ulster Scots or anything like that who end up siding with one community or the other because there's virtually no way to walk the line between the two. Also interestingly, Belfast is actually more segregated now than it was in the 1940s or 50s. The violence had a ratchet effect, where outbreaks would happen, people would segregate more, and even after it died down, they would never really reach the previous levels of integration. Depressing, really.

When I look at N. Ireland, I draw a lot of comparisons between Israel and Palestine. On the one hand, it gives me some hope that there might be some kind of peace in that region, but on the other, I can only hope it doesn't take hundreds of years to get there. I lived in the UK as a kid when the IRA were setting off bombs in London, and I had a good friend from Ireland proper who drove through the Omagh city center very shortly before that bomb went off. I have no patience for the whole IRA as freedom fighters trope, but likewise, there were some pretty terrible things done to people in the North at the hands of the British, so I don't think anyone's free from guilt, really. I've also found it interesting that some Brits I've met who have had very, very strong feelings of opposition to the IRA and Republicanism are quite happy to vilify Israel and side with the Palestinians, to the point of saying that bus bombings and such are justified and excusable. They haven't generally been very pleased when I've asked whether they feel the same about the Real IRA.

OMG, FaustianSlip, excellent post. You will obviously totally know your stuff! What attracted you to make such a study?

My background is partly Northern Irish Protestant originally. My immediate family aren't churchgoers though. Births, marriages and funerals is about it. The older men are Masons and Orange Order. My granny was Eastern Star and could sing a variety of "anti Papist" songs. Her views on the Catholics would be generally unprintable.

In more recent generations we relaxed so much we even had people marrying Catholics (though a fair amount of disapproval persisted) one Celtic fan and me. I went to the other side politically if not religiously. I tend not to bring this up in conversation. ;)

It's interesting you should mention the disparity between the belief in the Palestinian cause and the Irish one. I haven't seen this so much, supporters of one side that I know also tend to support the other. Told you I crossed the floor, and I suspect we will strongly disagree about this, so I will leave it up to you if you want to discuss this one further. I would be super interested to get a knowledgeable US take.

Th issue of Israel/Palestine and the NI situation as you know are tied in a lot of people's minds. You still get Rangers fans with Israeli flags and Celtic fans with Palestinian ones at games. There used to be a banner saying "IRA/PLO, TWO PEOPLES ONE STRUGGLE" which Celtic fans would hold. Even now that division strongly persists. At this point it is really not about religion at all but a whole bunch of things mixed in together.

There has recently been an increase in Scottish football of racism and especially sectarianism, so much so that our government contemplated emergency powers to act on it...did you see that?

[JesusFightClub]

All of the above is really interesting. And I've always thought that there were plenty of people who weren't fighting out of religious belief necessarily--that at some point it became cultural so even people for whom the religious part meant little stuck with the divisiveness.

Although there is certainly anti-Catholicism here in the States, I've never seen sectarianism anything close to like what went on in Ireland. Jack Chick (those icky cartoon "tracts") is probably the worst of what we have here.

There are plenty of Protestants who believe Catholicism is seriously flawed, theologically and socially, and vice versa. And plenty of heated internet debates, lol. But ultimately I don't think it affects daily life in any large way. In our area, there's a good mix of Catholics and Protestants (of all types). There might be particular families who would strongly object to an intermarriage or something, but in general where someone goes to church on Sundays doesn't affect how they interact with the rest of the community on a day to day basis. Protestants regularly send their children to Catholic schools around here, and even among the fundie-lite group, when it comes to social issues/ministry, it's not uncommon for them to work with local Catholic parishes.

Maybeiz, totally agree. It is not really about religion IMO. It seems that is just a cloak for many factors.

Having said that Jack Chick tracts are really creepy for me when it comes to Catholicism as I was told some of the things he says when I was growing up. Didn't believe it as it seemed a bit daft even when I was a kid, but I dislike the reminders.

America sounds a lot more sensible than we are on these matters. A debate on theology, or a disagreement on theology, I would pick any day over a fight in the town centre because someone shouted "Fenian bastards" or "Tiochfaidh ar la" or "Huns" or pretended to play the flute, or sang the chorus of a pro IRA song...

[JesusFightClub]

Hahaha, English, haz u it. It wouldn't be the same someone doing all of those, unless they had a death wish. "Tiochfaidh ar la" is an Irish republican slogan which means something like "tomorrow is ours". Playing the flute is a reference to Apprentice Boys/ Orange Order marches, so that is the other side of the divide.

[docmom]

I was born and brought up on the west coast of Scotland and we borrowed a lot of problems from the Troubles in Northern Ireland. It was always and still is a big thing are you Protestant or Catholic, stuff like what school do you go to, what football team do you support. You don't have to know anything about religion to sing sectarian songs in the town centre after a night out.

I also grew up in the West of Scotland. I remember wondering why some of my friends (my parents were very liberal and let us play with ebil catholicks) went to one school and I went to another. Our schools were right next to each other- ours on top of the hill and the Catholic one at the bottom (symbolism anyone?) so it didn't make much sense to me. My grandparents were more deeply steeped in the old sectarianism. I think if you're near the bottom of the social scale, it makes you feel good to be able to look down on someone else. My granny was quite happy when I married a Black man because he isn't Catholic.

[sugaree]

Grew up in America, in an area with a lot of descendents of Irish Catholics and Scots-Irish Presbyterians, and I never saw any Catholic/Protestant divide. Really, the strongest anti-Catholic sentiments I saw came from recent converts to fundamentalism or Jehovah Witnesses.

I feel like the sectarianism melting-potted itself out by the time I was born, and then revived a bit with the introduction of new sects.

[doe]

Just chiming in to say that where I see the most hostility toward Catholics in the US (at least in my experience) are from some of the conservative Baptist types.

Now I've heard criticism of Catholicism from various sources, but it seems that certain Baptists do so with seething vitriol. But I haven't heard any of them calling to take out anyone (except teh gays & abortionists). They figure God will take care of the Catholics for them.

[JesusFightClub]

r

I also grew up in the West of Scotland. I remember wondering why some of my friends (my parents were very liberal and let us play with ebil catholicks) went to one school and I went to another. Our schools were right next to each other- ours on top of the hill and the Catholic one at the bottom (symbolism anyone?) so it didn't make much sense to me. My grandparents were more deeply steeped in the old sectarianism. I think if you're near the bottom of the social scale, it makes you feel good to be able to look down on someone else. My granny was quite happy when I married a Black man because he isn't Catholic.

I wonder if we grew up near each other. This was exactly the same with me.

Although my grandparents were, um, less than PC, I reckon the Catholicism thing would have worried them more than race. My sibling hit the jackpot by getting together with a black Catholic, but g'parents had passed away by then. We also had another marriage at a Catholic church, at first my dad would not even drive into the parking lot, as he wouldn't believe anyone in our family would let themselves be married in a Catholic church.

[liltwinstar]

I've seen some anti-Catholic bias from time to time. My parents invited my husband and I to their Presbyterian church for a service featuring bagpipes; Mr. Liltwinstar's family heritage is Scottish (and Catholic) and we thought it would be fun to go and hear the music. We were both pretty offended when the pastor of the church used the sermon to get some digs in at Catholics. In retrospect, I shouldn't have been that surprised - it's a Presbyterian church, after all - but in the US, in my current secular life, I don't expect to hear stuff like that.

When I was younger and my parents were involved in Operation Rescue (a "pro-life" organization that was quite active in the early 90s), I got the sense that the Protestants there used the Catholics, since Catholics are (usually) anti-abortion. We would pray together to end abortion and go and protest and stuff, but there wasn't any real...sense of community, I guess, and any Catholic priests who led prayers did so in a Protestant-friendly manner (basically, they didn't read from a prayerbook in front of the Protestants). The Protestants definitely ran the show, but they were more than happy to use Catholic churches for meeting and take money from Catholic donors.

When I was much younger and we went to Reconstructionist church, they talked a lot about the Protestant Reformation and how great/necessary it was, how silly the Catholics were with their butter indulgences and whatnot, and how cruel the Catholics were to Protestants, particularly in France. I started to see Protestants as victims of Catholic politics, but then I read a book on the Scottish Covenanters and realized they could dish out the violence, too, and then I didn't really know what to think. Neither side seemed particularly Christian to me :?

[CanticleoftheTurning]

I'm a Catholic who married a Presbyterian(who's converting to Episcopalianism bc the local Presby church sees anyone less liberal than they are as stupid.) My ancestors were largely Irish, while his were largely Scottish. My parents kept asking DH when he was going to convert to Catholicism (!), and I think his denomination is one of the reasons why they disowned me. Aside from a few prejudiced people (ahem my parents ahem) it's really not that big a deal.

I do tease DH and warn him not to wear orange on St. Patrick's Day.

[Rosa]

I grew up in the American Midwest in a town that seemed to be evenly balanced between Catholics, mainline Protestants, and Baptists-and-fundier-than-that (significant minority of JWs and nondenominationals). I never ran into any anti-Catholic sentiment except that, because the Baptist kids used "Christian" to mean "Baptist", if you asked a Catholic kid if they were Christian they'd say no.

On the other hand, in my grandfather's generation (b. 1910) anti-Catholic sentiment wasn't uncommon, in the same way anti-Black, anti-Jewish, and anti-Asian sentiment wasn't uncommon.

Catholicism in the US is really associated with ethnic identity, I think - the Polish, Irish, & Italian descended Catholics I know, if they're not very devout they still all seem to think of the church as a part of their family identity and are a little surprised to run into similarly ethnic families that *aren't* Catholic.

[dawbs]

I think, in the US, what I've seen is generational. Or at least in my 'mostly protestant' area of the Midwest it is.

My parents traipsed me through dozens upon dozens of different churches growing up (we traveled summers and went to church wherever we were. So name a protestant denomination, I've probably visited one of their churches, somewhere in the US) but never, EVER to a catholic church. My dad is 'old fashioned' on such things--more liberal than his (baptist) parents on the subject but he harbors a bit of a 'us vs. them' mentality.

I've seen that mentality on people born in the 50's or earlier who are protestant (I've seen it in older Catholics too, but I have less exposure there)--but I see it significantly less in younger protestants.

I know my grandmother specifically fought w/ the school board about serving fish on Friday's in school--she thought it was catering to the ebil minority. I also have her 'library' which includes an awful little book called "Demon Experiences" which tells stories and includes a tale of native children speaking Latin to the missionary there was obvious evidence of Catholic Demons. :roll:

(I'll also say that the fact that people are 'culturally catholic' adds to the adversity, IME)

[NurseNell]

I grew up in a small town Western New York. I was the only Catholic in my grade from K thru 12. This was in the 1950's when there was school prayer. Every school day started with the Protestant form of the Our Father. When I asked if we could sometimes say the Hail Mary I was told NO in no uncertain terms. The neighbor kids weren't allowed to play with us, they were Baptist. We had Old Order Amish, they were the only kids who would play with us. Later the neighbors did come to realize we weren't dangerous people and the kids could play with us.

In high school Catholics could not participate in the baccalaureat service, which is something seniors do. We weren't allowed to join Hi Y, a club that was part of the YWCA and YMCA (Young Men Christian Association or Young Women). When the Gideons came each year to hand out bibles Catholics weren't allowed to attend but that was at the direction of our parish priest.

When my great grandmother emigrated here from Ireland she was met with signs that said No Irish Need Apply Here. But that was more than a hundred years ago and hasn't been true for a long time.

Nell

[Witsec1]

Nurse Nell - I wish the people who think America went to the dogs when we "took God out of school" would understand what it was like for minority religions to be forced to participate in stuff like that, or be excluded.

I think a lot of the religious sectarianism has faded away. Even my mother recently told me that she now thinks that Catholics can be "saved" w/o leaving Catholicism.

I also think that instead of specifically sectarian prejudice, it was replaced by ethnic prejudice. Even if they shared a sectarian identity, most immigrants worshipped separately, in their own language. So in lots of towns in the US, you'll have St. Famous Martyr of the Old Country with a congregation from one ethnic group, and St. Famous Martyr of Another Old Country, with a different ethnic congregation. They were more closely allied with their ethnic group than with the catholic (small c) church. Same with Protestant churches, but probably even more so. My father grew up listening to sermons in German, in too-tight hand-me down shoes (he had to soak his feet in ice water to get them to fit). He didn't understand a word because his parents didn't speak German at home. To this day, one of the reasons he loves the smell of coffee is because the aroma of coffee wafting up from the church basement was a signal that the agony was about to end.

My grandmother started an English-language Sunday School for English-only speakers in the community where my parents grew up. It amuses me to think that according to Dougie P., et. al, she was a wicked feminist jezebel for doing so.

Edited to make sense

[GenerationCedarchip]

Nurse Nell - I wish the people who think America went to the dogs when we "took God out of school" would understand what it was like for minority religions to be forced to participate in stuff like that, or be excluded.

I think a lot of the religious sectarianism has faded away. Even my mother recently told me that she now thinks that Catholics can be "saved" w/o leaving Catholicism.

I also think that instead of specifically sectarian prejudice, it was replaced by ethnic prejudice. Even if they shared a sectarian identity, most immigrants worshipped separately, in their own language. So in lots of towns in the US, you'll have St. Famous Martyr of the Old Country with a congregation from one ethnic group, and St. Famous Martyr of Another Old Country, with a different ethnic congregation. They were more closely allied with their ethnic group than with the catholic (small c) church. Same with Protestant churches, but probably even more so. My father grew up listening to sermons in German, in too-tight hand-me down shoes (he had to soak his feet in ice water to get them to fit). He didn't understand a word because his parents didn't speak German at home. To this day, one of the reasons he loves the smell of coffee is because the aroma of coffee wafting up from the church basement was a signal that the agony was about to end.

My grandmother started an English-language Sunday School for English-only speakers in the community where my parents grew up. It amuses me to think that according to Dougie P., et. al, she was a wicked feminist jezebel for doing so.

Edited to make sense

I agree with this. We actually have Catholics who attend my PC(USA) church now because: (1) we're tolerant and don't give them grief about being Catholic and (2) they don't want to go to the Catholic church because of all the hispanic immigrants there. I think it's sad, but it certainly goes on.

[AlexIsAwake]

I was raised as an Independent Fundamental Baptist, and we merely distrusted Protestants but hated Catholics. It's been my experience that most anti-Catholic sentiment in my area of the country (the south) does come from Fundamentalist types. I lived in the midwest for a while, and found that Catholocism was MUCH more common up there and there was much more tolerance for everything: religion, diversity, race, sexual orientation, etc. The Bible belt can be a difficult place to be for those who defy the status quo, however there would never be anti-Catholic demonstrations or any type of fighting in the streets over it. People like to run their mouths, but they generally aren't passionate enough about religion to physically fight over it. Talk sh*t about a college football team though, and you better watch out...that is what people get passionate about.

[Witsec1]

I agree with this. We actually have Catholics who attend my PC(USA) church now because: (1) we're tolerant and don't give them grief about being Catholic and (2) they don't want to go to the Catholic church because of all the hispanic immigrants there. I think it's sad, but it certainly goes on.

Oh, for sure it does. My husband is an ebul Cathlick (lapsed) and once while visiting the in-laws we sat through a homily by the priest where he basically tore some in the Anglo congegration a new one for complaining about the Spanish masses he had started. I was like, preach it brother!

[NurseNell]

Nurse Nell - I wish the people who think America went to the dogs when we "took God out of school" would understand what it was like for minority religions to be forced to participate in stuff like that, or be excluded.

Whenever someone brings that topic up I share my experience. I felt very out of place. I don't want school prayer to come back to public schools.

I go to a Spanish speaking parish now. It helps me learn Spanish better'

Nell

[CanticleoftheTurning]

I agree with this. We actually have Catholics who attend my PC(USA) church now because: (1) we're tolerant and don't give them grief about being Catholic and (2) they don't want to go to the Catholic church because of all the hispanic immigrants there. I think it's sad, but it certainly goes on.

That's interesting--my husband used to be PC(USA) and his old church had this strong undercurrent of anti-Catholicism even though on the surface they cooperate with the local Catholic cathedral for some events. It was the PC(USA) church to go to in town, too. The rest of the Presbyterian churches in town are apparently worse. They just made pretenses of openess but they really were extraordinarily close-minded about anybody who was less than flaming liberal, so my moderately-liberal husband felt really out of place. So, the prejudices are sometimes still there--just kind of a hidden undercurrent that masks itself as other issues, like ethnicity. As in your experience, I wouldn't be surprised if people joined the Presby church because it is largely white while there's a ton of Black and Hispanic and Asian and multi-ethnic people in the Catholic churches.

[Turtle]

Whenever someone brings that topic up I share my experience. I felt very out of place. I don't want school prayer to come back to public schools.

I go to a Spanish speaking parish now. It helps me learn Spanish better'

Nell

ITA agree about prayer in public schools. I also occasionally attend Spanish mass to keep practice my Spanish. When I was in college, there were about 15 Catholic seminarians in my Spanish class one semester. Apparently it is now a policy in that diocese that all newly ordained priests be fluent in English and Spanish.

Anyway, I was raised Baptist, and there was definite anti-Catholic vibes. Once my parents signed me up for a "cults" class that met for an hour every Sunday and highlighted a different "cult" each week so we could better witness to those of that "cult". I remember Catholicism being one...imagine presuming you can cover the entire Catholic faith, why it is wrong and how to convert Catholics to Baptists in one hour long class. Lol.

[julie paradox]

Nurse Nell: what constitutes the Catholic version of the Lord's Prayer?

(or is this another one of those times where "protestant" doesn't actually include "anglican"?)

[FaustianSlip]

OMG, FaustianSlip, excellent post. You will obviously totally know your stuff! What attracted you to make such a study?

I did a three-week summer program when I was a Freshman in high school at Dublin City University; one of those things where you get to spend a summer taking a university-level class to see what it's like. I took an Irish history class and loved it. I felt like Irish history had a little bit of everything, and modern Irish history in particular fascinated me, so I stuck with it. My family does have some Irish ethnicity back on my mom's side, but we're more of English and Scottish stock, if anything, with a heavy dose of German.

It's interesting you should mention the disparity between the belief in the Palestinian cause and the Irish one. I haven't seen this so much, supporters of one side that I know also tend to support the other. Told you I crossed the floor, and I suspect we will strongly disagree about this, so I will leave it up to you if you want to discuss this one further. I would be super interested to get a knowledgeable US take.

Eh, I'm personally not a hard-line supporter of Israel for a wide variety of reasons and support a two-state solution, myself. Most of the time, I think the Israelis are their own worst enemies, though I suppose that often goes for the Palestinians, as well. It kills me to watch the Israeli government screw up what seems like the simplest, most obvious things because they're too busy catering to far-right elements (a lot of whom won't even join the IDF and defend the country in the first place), because I want Israel to succeed, but... yeah, it isn't often a source of the warm fuzzies for me. And that's about all I'll say on that. Heh. Oh, and when I say "Brits," I almost exclusively mean "English." It struck me as very bizarre that people who had grown up in London when people were literally getting blown up on the street by IRA bombs were sitting there defending Palestinians taking a similar approach in Israel. I suppose it's always different when it's something happening in your own back yard.

Th issue of Israel/Palestine and the NI situation as you know are tied in a lot of people's minds. You still get Rangers fans with Israeli flags and Celtic fans with Palestinian ones at games. There used to be a banner saying "IRA/PLO, TWO PEOPLES ONE STRUGGLE" which Celtic fans would hold.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of photos of murals in places like (London)Derry that co-opt the Israeli and Palestinian flags as stand-ins for Unionists and Republicans. It's kind of disturbing to me on a variety of levels; I always wonder if that practice fosters anti-Semitism (I would say "and anti-Islam," but I suspect that as in most places, there's plenty of that to go around, regardless of what murals you're putting up). And it certainly casts the conflict in a pretty hopeless light, choosing to use the symbology of another horribly bloody, long-term, sectarian conflict.

There has recently been an increase in Scottish football of racism and especially sectarianism, so much so that our government contemplated emergency powers to act on it...did you see that?

Not that specifically, but I remember reading a few articles a little while back about some really nasty, racist incidents in Belfast involving families who had moved in from... India, I think it was. And I know there have been several bad incidents at football matches in Europe over the last several years. It's pretty disgusting, really.

[NurseNell]

Nurse Nell: what constitutes the Catholic version of the Lord's Prayer?

(or is this another one of those times where "protestant" doesn't actually include "anglican"?)

Now the Catholic and non-Catholic version are the same but when I was growing up Catholics did not say "For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours. Now and for ever. Amen" When the prayer was said in school Catholic students did not say this part. And We started with the sign of the cross and ended with the sign of the cross, another thing that made us different.

I don't know what Anglicans or Episcopalians said, or say today.

Nell