Pulse Nightclub, Orlando Domestic Terror

[infooverload]

What additional information do we know about the potential California attacker? He seems to have been forgotten largely. If people are going to stress a focus on stopping terrorist attacks shouldn't we also be focusing on terrorists of every worldview.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

42 minutes ago, infooverload said:

What additional information do we know about the potential California attacker? He seems to have been forgotten largely. If people are going to stress a focus on stopping terrorist attacks shouldn't we also be focusing on terrorists of every worldview.

https://news.google.com/news/story?cf=all&hl=en&pz=1&ned=us&q=CA+pride+guns&cf=all&ncl=d8TuF2LMJ210cNMSFsFfILrhmRJKM&scoring=n

The coverage is still very extensive - look at all the different media that have stories.

[refugee]

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but I think I heard on a newscast (an interview with one of the survivors, I think) that people could not escape because all the back doors were locked. Is this true? That just doesn't sound right, what if a fire had broken out, instead of a mass shooting?

But I might have heard wrong. I asked a couple people I know and they didn't remember hearing that.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

6 minutes ago, refugee said:

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but I think I heard on a newscast (an interview with one of the survivors, I think) that people could not escape because all the back doors were locked. Is this true? That just doesn't sound right, what if a fire had broken out, instead of a mass shooting?

But I might have heard wrong. I asked a couple people I know and they didn't remember hearing that.

This is the story I can find that would align with that:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3643430/Orlando-survivor-admits-trapping-club-goers-inside-escaped-claims-thought-doing-right-thing.html

It sounds like he was panicking.  While I think he was wrong, I can see it happening.

[infooverload]

https://news.google.com/news/story?cf=all&hl=en&pz=1&ned=us&q=CA+pride+guns&cf=all&ncl=d8TuF2LMJ210cNMSFsFfILrhmRJKM&scoring=n

The coverage is still very extensive - look at all the different media that have stories.

Interesting both men had troubled relationships and previous run in with the law. Some reports indicate the Orlando shooter may have previously been a patron of the club he attacked. The whole thing is tragic and now we have the ongoing MEME wars and commentary wars. Anymore I wait and go okay what tragedy is going to distract us in a few weeks and everybody is going to weigh in with their expert opinion.

[2manyKidzzz]

I initially heard that rear doors were padlocked. It does not seem to me that there were enough exits with good access.....I do not know why there has been no more mention of this. Why couldn't people stream out the back....instead of being trapped in the bathrooms? Only the front door was really a way out. Seems to me that was an issue for a Fire Marshall. 

Did anyone else hear any info on this

[refugee]

3 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I initially heard that rear doors were padlocked. It does not seem to me that there were enough exits with good access.....I do not know why there has been no more mention of this. Why couldn't people stream out the back....instead of being trapped in the bathrooms? Only the front door was really a way out. Seems to me that was an issue for a Fire Marshall. 

Did anyone else hear any info on this

Yes, that was what I was thinking, too. If the emergency had been a fire instead of a shooter, the loss of life might have gone even higher, with a stampede, crushing injuries, and deaths from smoke inhalation and burns for all those who couldn't get out.

But that presupposes that the information about locked doors is true.

 

 

[apple1]

9 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I initially heard that rear doors were padlocked. It does not seem to me that there were enough exits with good access.....I do not know why there has been no more mention of this. Why couldn't people stream out the back....instead of being trapped in the bathrooms? Only the front door was really a way out. Seems to me that was an issue for a Fire Marshall. 

Did anyone else hear any info on this

This WAS part of the early reporting. It seems to have been completely dropped. I really don't know whether there was truth to this piece or not. It DOES seem to need to be investigated. Somewhere early on there were also diagrams of the layout of the physical space, and I remember thinking, not enough doors (based on my outside opinion ONLY, may not be correct).

These pieces need to be reviewed and if there were issues, perhaps either new standards or new enforcement needs to happen.

Since I am a lot older than the average FJer, most of you will not remember the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire in my part of the US. Anyway - a significant outcome of the BHSC tragedy was better fire safety standards and enforcement. It would be worth considering whether any such improvements need to happen in Orlando.

Disclaimer: I do not know whether any of this actually applies to Pulse.

[PennySycamore]

@apple1, I not only remember the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire but remember the flag still being at half staff when we passed by the club a month later on my way to Cincinnati to visit my aunt.

There was also the infamous Cocoanut Grove nightclub fire in Boston in the 40s ('42 IIRC).  It was packed with soldiers and sailors on leave to over capacity.  The club was decorated with all these paper decorations as well as fabric wall hangings to make the basement club look tropical.  498 people died in the fire that started in the basement lounge.  It was the second most deadly fire in US history.

Cocoanut Grove Fire

[2manyKidzzz]

If people couldn't get out, there weren't enough exits available. I really thought situations like that had been outlawed. 

But no more mention of it on the news. If people could have easily run out the back doors, it might have been very different. 

[ChickenettiLuvr]

In light of the death and horrors of the last several days, 

Tonight's episode of NBC's Dateline (on the Charles Manson murders) is ill-timed and in very poor taste.

[samira_catlover]

I honestly don't know what the situation was at Pulse in terms of the emergency exits--whether deliberately locked, accidentally blocked, inadequate for panic evacuation, or whatever.  If there weren't enough good exits for a non-mass-panic situation (e.g., locked or blocked instead), SOMEONE had damned well better be facing a grand jury soon on felony charges, IMNSHO.

Folks, I see your Beverly Hills nightclub (1977: KY: 165 dead) AND your Coconut Grove nightclub fires (Boston, MA, 1942: 492 dead--the numbers do vary a bit), with the death tolls very substantially increased due to inadequate, locked, and/or blocked/obstructed/hidden exit doors. 

I will very personally raise and call each and every single one of you FJ readers: what about the Our Lady of the Angels (Chicago) school fire (1958: 92 kids, 3 nuns dead---locked access fences prevented fire trucks from charging right up to the school, and local people frantically tried to batter down the locked gates with sledgehammers, axes, and anything they could get!---to little avail, as children died screaming and praying the Rosary).  

Also the (NYC) Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire (1911: 146 dead--but don't sweat it too much: they were mostly just dumb immigrant wops and hebes, no big issue---it's not like they were REAL Amurican people that count).  That ghastly death toll was largely due to locked exit doors: the owners had suffered the Twooo0ly Awesomely Staggering losses of, IIRC, maybe $30 USD over a year in pilferage theft, and so doors were locked.

Oh, and can I mention the Iroquois Theater Fire (Chicago: 1903; at least 602 dead, mostly women and children, mostly because of locked, blocked, or inaccessible exit doors, plus a lethal panic stampede)?

To the latter hells with folks using remote devices--COPE with it, OK?: THIS needs a 72-point bold all-caps font (and I'd use 240-point if I had it handy):

JUST HOW MANY GODS-BE-DAMNED CORPSES DO WE NEED TO MAKE IT A FELONY TO LOCK OR BLOCK FIRE EXITS IN OCCUPIED BUILDINGS?

[Toothfairy]

This tragedy is so sad. I know people who live in that area.  I know gay people and foster lgbt youth. The comments coming from evangelical christians are so disgusting. It makes me want to cry. I hate the hate against lgbt community. 

 

I also read the story of a man texting his mom while hiding in the bathroom. I just read he's dead. Sad. I too wonder what happened to the back doors or fire escape. A bar shouldn't just gave one exit

[apple1]

@samira_catlover

I'm confused by your post. No one on FJ has minimized any previous fire tragedies. I personally mentioned the Beverly Hills Supper Club because it happened in my area, during my adult lifetime, and the hospital where I worked instituted mass casualty protocol because of it. Personal experience, not reducing nor minimizing anything else. It is not a contest.

The overall seeming tone of your post seems to indicate ire directed at FJers. Maybe that is not what you mean.

[Palimpsest]

4 hours ago, apple1 said:

@samira_catlover

I'm confused by your post. No one on FJ has minimized any previous fire tragedies. I personally mentioned the Beverly Hills Supper Club because it happened in my area, during my adult lifetime, and the hospital where I worked instituted mass casualty protocol because of it. Personal experience, not reducing nor minimizing anything else. It is not a contest.

The overall seeming tone of your post seems to indicate ire directed at FJers. Maybe that is not what you mean.

I hope the rage was directed at locked or blocked exit doors not at other members here.  I'm not sure what remote devices have to do with it.  Some of us do know about those other fires.  The tragedy of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory wasn't ignored.  It lead to legislation requiring safety measures for all factory workers.  The Our Lady of Angels fire wasn't ignored either - it lead to many schools being brought up to code.  Criminal negligence certainly.  I don't know whether criminal charges were filed in either of those cases, but they should have been.

I'll add The Station (RI), 2003 to the list of nightclub tragedies through fire.  They are still tragedies even if they didn't occur in schools and factories.  The Station had inadequate and blocked exits, flammable foam insulation that was not up to code, and a band manager who did not get permission to use pyrotechnics.  The owners and the band manager all faced criminal charges and did jail time.  Not enough jail time, IMO.

I really hope it doesn't turn out that the exits to Pulse were locked or blocked.  When will people learn?

[samira_catlover]

5 hours ago, apple1 said:

The overall seeming tone of your post seems to indicate ire directed at FJers. Maybe that is not what you mean.

TY for the tag and for allowing a clarification.  

No, I am not raging at FJ readers, but am tearing my hair and shrieking in horror and rage against ALL the people of all lands who do NOT demand major public accountability in the aftermath of so-called "disasters".  All gods all damn it:  hate, HATE, hate the idea of people innocently dead because of carelessness, crappy local codes, stupidity, and inaction---the body count issue totally sucks!

Speaking just for myself, I am nauseated and infuriated that we seem to depend on the concept of "tombstone technology": we only need to really change laws and life and safety codes when there is a quantity sufficient of dead bodies piled up and they are just-too-damned-inconvenient to ignore.

In 1912, there was a formula in Britain for how many lifeboats were needed relative to the number of passengers. After the Titanic (1500+ dead, but heck, lots of them were only Irish or low-class Brits)---the sea rules got changed: "lifeboats for every living soul on board".  

In the aftermath of the Iroquois fire came a mandate that exit doors need to open outward, and preferably should have panic bars (no knobs or fuss).  The school fire at Our Lady Of The Angels triggered demands for fire doors that would swing shut to slow fire and smoke passage, put an effective stop to overdoor transoms, and also pushed for building-based alarms to be connected to the local fire departments.  

In the Triangle fire, the totally shocking concept was advanced that employers DID need to be careful about the safety of their workers, even if they're only freaking furriners and emigrants that aren't like US---and ****  your possible theft losses: Don't lock exit doors!  

If you've been in a public building where there was a sign posted "occupancy by no more than X is allowed, per the fire marshal"---you reap the benefits of the Boston Coconut Grove fire.  If you've ever wondered why a public building had a revolving door (loved by architects for environment control) and redundant outward-opening swing doors for fast access---give a thought to Boston, because a jammed revolving door played a major part in those deaths.

I'm just sick of the stupid, needless, murderous slaughter of helpless humans in public spaces---and IF it turns out that Pulse had locked exit doors that limited escape...there needs to be a grand jury hearing, for starters.

How many corpses does it take to make a change?

 

[violynn]

I'm late with this, but I want to share my heartbreak, sorrow and feelings of anger and helplessness that LGBQT communities are still targets of hate so strong it leads to murder.  It is absolutely sickening.  What is wrong with humanity that there still exists this kind of ignorance, intolerance, hatred and callous respect for human life?  

[2manyKidzzz]

I brought up the locked door scenario because I heard it on ....I think NBC, that the doors were padlocked. And then no more mention. I find that strange. There was one door in an alley that was crowded by a fence or something. I think this is tragic and I am very surprised the news outlets have not mentioned it again. Strange to me. 

[47of74]

I see two Marines in California are in trouble now

marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2016/06/16/west-coast-marines-under-investigation-social-media-post-threatening-attack-gay-bars/85989868/

Quote

Two active-duty Marines are under investigation in connection to a social media post purportedly threatening to attack gay bars following Sunday's deadly mass shooting in Florida.

The California-based I Marine Expeditionary Force launched a command investigation after a photo surfaced on social media showing a corporal in uniform holding a rifle with his finger near the trigger. The words “Coming to a gay bar near you!” appear at the bottom of the photo.

The picture was posted recently to Camp MENdleton resale, a closed Facebook group for male Marines with more than 25,000 members. The person who purportedly posted it also wrote “Too soon?”

The post follows Sunday's terror attack on a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, that killed 49 people and left 53 wounded.

I hope both of these jerks get a Big Chicken Dinner or at the very least an Other Than Ham dinner.  They put the armed forces in a bad light and our military doesn't need people like that.

[refugee]

2 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

I brought up the locked door scenario because I heard it on ....I think NBC, that the doors were padlocked. And then no more mention. I find that strange. There was one door in an alley that was crowded by a fence or something. I think this is tragic and I am very surprised the news outlets have not mentioned it again. Strange to me. 

I brought it up for the same reason. Heard it on a newscast, early on, and then no more. But the survivor accounts seem to indicate that there was no way out. I imagine those -- unfortunate seems too little of a word -- people hiding, hearing the shots coming closer. The guy who hid in the bathroom, who had time to text his mom before the shooter came to where he was. I keep wondering why they couldn't get out? Why they had to wait there, horrible to contemplate. But I haven't heard it addressed.

[SpoonfulOSugar]

I have been looking and there is nothing that says any doors were locked.  Again, there were reports that a man held a door, so that people could not get out (linked up thread.)

The Washington Post had a story earlier today about what reporters saw/heard that mentioned the topic, but I've been unable to find it.

What I did find was this:

If you look, you can see that the restrooms are far left - and they didn't have any exits.  So it wasn't that people couldn't get out, per se, as that they retreated into a dead end and were hemmed in.

The accompanying article describes some of this - it is worth reading:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/orlando-shooting/?tid=a_inl

(That link also has the original graphic with key areas identified.)

[MatthewDuggar]

I have't heard anything regarding locked doors, but if there were could it have had to do with underage people sneaking inside?  I heard there was a cop outside dealing with an 18 year old prior to the massacre, plus at least one of the victims was under 21.

[2manyKidzzz]

I definitely heard on a major network that doors were padlocked. Doesn't look like there were many doors. Fire codes should have meant that there were doors which were easily accessible to go out. Clearly, going into the bathrooms made it a dead end. 

[VelociRapture]

If like to caution people for a moment -

Media reports aren't always accurate in the early hours or days of reporting on stories like this. They're under huge pressure to give the public information fast and that can lead to errors. I've also read that Law Enforcement has been a bit tight lipped about this specific investigation for some reason... which of course leads to a ton of questions and speculation and rumors. 

My general philosophy is this - if the article doesn't quote a named Law Enforcement official as stating something as fact, I don't believe it's true. I would have to look at the articles claiming the doors were locked to determine whether it passes that personal test or not.

@Coconut Flan, I too was highly confused by your initial post. So thank you for the clarification.

Code adherence and safety has always been a problem, as you know. Even if it turns out not to have been a contributing factor in this situation, it is still a major concern in many places. My Grandfather is an Engineer and he takes these things very seriously - especially when he inspects buildings or projects for towns or cities. My sister and I both had him do the inspections for our first homes because he has so little trust and faith in home inspectors (plus he's extremely intelligent and good at what he does.)

I think education - such as what you're doing here - is incredibly important. People should be aware of these horrific situations and the changes they brought up as well. I think that educational standards for Engineering programs should be looked at closely as well, in addition to laws and regulations - maybe even Budiness programs too (so anyone interested in running a business would be well aware of what the current codes are for their areas when it's time for them to build or renovate.) It's all well and good to change the law, but if Engineers aren't being properly educated and prepared it won't mean anything.

[47of74]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

If like to caution people for a moment -

Media reports aren't always accurate in the early hours or days of reporting on stories like this. They're under huge pressure to give the public information fast and that can lead to errors. I've also read that Law Enforcement has been a bit tight lipped about this specific investigation for some reason... which of course leads to a ton of questions and speculation and rumors. 

My general philosophy is this - if the article doesn't quote a named Law Enforcement official as stating something as fact, I don't believe it's true. I would have to look at the articles claiming the doors were locked to determine whether it passes that personal test or not.

Yeah it used to be that reporters wanted to be first but more importantly wanted to be right.  I'm too young to really remember the attempt on Reagan but I've been told I was rather upset that Mr. Rodgers had been pre-empted.  That was back in the days when we had four channels and sometimes five if the weather was a certain way.  I read later how upset Frank Reynolds got when he didn't have the right information, and admonished his staff to get it nailed down, to get it right.