Counting On- Part 10: Counting out in Central America!

[HarleyQuinn]

I'm picturing them all living in a single room in the back of a car lot, maybe with a "break room" type kitchen there. Michelle must have been grateful Jessa was such a control freak, that poor kid probably had to declutter everything.

[ophelia]

16 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I'm picturing them all living in a single room in the back of a car lot, maybe with a "break room" type kitchen there. Michelle must have been grateful Jessa was such a control freak, that poor kid probably had to declutter everything.

I wonder how they produced new blessings while all sleeping in the same room with children of different ages.

[OrchidBlossom]

55 minutes ago, ophelia said:

I really liked about him that he disagreed with their QF-lifestyle in front of the camera. It was one of the most "real" moments of the whole show (I stopped watching years ago!). I always had a feelding though that his disagreement didn't keep him from having a close connection with his grandkids and that he really tried to invest in their lifes by spending time with them or teaching them new things. If I remember correctly he taught the kids to play chess.

I don't recall this (but all the old episodes completely blur for me) what did he say?

[ophelia]

@OrchidBlossom If I remember correctly he stated that in one of the first episodes. He was interviewed in the TTH with a lot of the howler gang in the backround. He mentioned that he told JB when they had 5 (?!) kids that this is enough.

[OrchidBlossom]

Just now, ophelia said:

@OrchidBlossom If I remember correctly he stated that in one of the first episodes. He was interviewed in the TTH with a lot of the howler gang in the backround. He mentioned that he told JB when they had 5 (?!) kids that this is enough.

If only they had listened.

[ophelia]

I think it is a really personal choice if you have kids and how many you want and it's nobodys turn to comment that. But in this special case I totally agree with you.

[SassyPants]

23 minutes ago, ophelia said:

I think it is a really personal choice if you have kids and how many you want and it's nobodys turn to comment that. But in this special case I totally agree with you.

I think the "nobody's business" works to a certain logical number. There is not 1 single couple on this Earth whose logical number would be 19. There are only 24 hours in each day- that right there is the limiting factor. No 2 people (parents) can make a day last longer, so that they can handle infinite numbers of children.

Neglect comes into play-

[Shadoewolf]

Yeah nobody's business I thibk is subjective. I very bluntly confronted the friend I had to report to CPS a few months because his wife completely verbally abuses and neglects the 4 kids they already have. She is above to deliver baby #5. I was livid when he told me she was pregnant, he knew full well how she is and neither prevented it in any way. I'm sorry but if you cant (or in their case..won't) take proper care of the kids you already have, stop breeding!!

[theinvisiblegirl]

39 minutes ago, ophelia said:

@OrchidBlossom If I remember correctly he stated that in one of the first episodes. He was interviewed in the TTH with a lot of the howler gang in the backround. He mentioned that he told JB when they had 5 (?!) kids that this is enough.

He also said that Michelle's father agreed with him. I specifically remember that.

[OrchidBlossom]

1 hour ago, ophelia said:

I think it is a really personal choice if you have kids and how many you want and it's nobodys turn to comment that. But in this special case I totally agree with you.

I generally attempt to be a very nonjudgmental person, if someone can care for their kids, the number is up to them. I don't think anyone can care for 19 kids, but the Duggars definitely cannot.

[JermajestyDuggar]

29 minutes ago, theinvisiblegirl said:

He also said that Michelle's father agreed with him. I specifically remember that.

And Michelle's parents had a large family. But they had a manageable number. 

[calimojo]

22 hours ago, MatthewDuggar said:

JB's treatment of his dad when he was dying just unnerves me.  That should have been kept off camera.  I have a feeling Mary and JB's dad really didn't have the best of relationships.  I can't recall seeing any interaction on camera between them before he was terminal, but I wonder if they had a relationship like my parents.  Basically they should have divorced since I was a baby.  I never saw them kiss or hug each other, they basically co-existed. In reality they were complete opposites.  They fought on occasion but it was never violent.  As I got older my mother basically just ignored my dad.  Then as a teen, my dad was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and suddenly my mother was like Joan of Ark and made sure he got proper treatment.  Once he was stabilized she went back to ignoring him.  Eventually, she ended up coming to live with me, she suffered a fall, broke a hip, got mild dementia and died due to COPD complications.   At the funeral/ celebration of life party for her, you would have thought they had a picture-perfect marriage based on my dad's actions/mood, etc.  As far as I am concerned, I never took sides or anything.  It was stressful, but it was their relationship, not mine.   It's all so bizarre and I'm sorry for blabbering, but I just have a feeling there's a lot more to the story as to why JB feels the way he did/does.

I remember the episodes when JL was sick. There were some brief shots here and there of Mary caring for him and being quite tender with him.  And I remember one scene, where JB teared up, and I think held on to Jessa briefy while he composed himself.  It actually felt like a fairly genuine expression of his grief. 

 

That being said, I have often wondered if the negative comments about JB's dad were more to add drama to their backstory.  Michelle as the flirty teenager, tempting her neighbor, JB as the good son who had to overcome a bad relationship with his dad, and of course the Caleb story for why they stopped using birth control and started their crazy journey.

 

I do think it is interesting now, though that Mary is apparently not at the TTH anymore.  I wonder if that was before or after the scandals broke?  If it was after, I wonder if the scandals had anything to do with it?  We know that she wasn't displaced by Anna as we saw that she was bunking with the girls.  Perhaps, John has been allowed to have his own private room now as an enticement to keep him in the fold. 

 

 

[SilverBeach]

Where is GMA Mary and why did she leave the TTH? Presumably there is still a shitton of laundry to do around there .

[MatthewDuggar]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

Where is GMA Mary and why did she leave the TTH? Presumably there is still a shitton of laundry to do around there .

I'm interested in more details on this as well.  

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

Where is GMA Mary and why did she leave the TTH? Presumably there is still a shitton of laundry to do around there .

They have Joy and Hannie for that-

[SilverBeach]

9 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

They have Joy and Hannie for that-

There were always Jslaves for that! Fewer now.

[theinvisiblegirl]

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

And Michelle's parents had a large family. But they had a manageable number. 

And there was also a pretty large gap between kids, wasn't there? Wasn't her older sister pregnant at the same time as her mother? We never saw her after that early special, did we?

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Where is GMA Mary and why did she leave the TTH? Presumably there is still a shitton of laundry to do around there .

(Messed up the quote >.>)

@SilverBeach I'd be interested in knowing this, too. Maybe she's "retired"?

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, theinvisiblegirl said:

And there was also a pretty large gap between kids, wasn't there? Wasn't her older sister pregnant at the same time as her mother? We never saw her after that early special, did we?

(Messed up the quote >.>)

@SilverBeach I'd be interested in knowing this, too. Maybe she's "retired"?

Yeah I remember Michelle saying her mom was pregnant with her while her oldest sister was. She was talking about being pregnant at the same time as Anna of course.

8 kids all spread out is way more manageable than 19 kids born In a 21 year span.

[sophie10130]

23 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I think this happens quite a bit in religious extremeism generally, I wouldn't be surprised to hear IBLP is no exception. Especially emotional abuse. One thing that starkly stands out to me is in Sierra's description of her husband (where she calls him a bucket of cold water on her firecracker personality, which is also troublesome) she says:

This appears to not be describing one incident, but several, based on context. This is abusive behavior. Gaslighting/denying the other person's feelings, pretending to leave the person without notice so that they begin to doubt their behavior and are willing to cede more ground when you (inevitably) return, dismissing the argument (And by so doing, dismissing the other person's reasons for starting an argument), and otherwise distracting the person from continuing the discussion or making them feel like they are at fault for being upset is abusive behavior. It's a control tactic. If someone challenges you and steps out of line and you know they have a point, you either make it about why they are hurting you/hurting the relationship by being upset or you avoid the argument altogether by manipulating them into feeling compelled to drop it. The key is, Sierra probably feels like the argument was resolved. He says "its okay" and "we love each other". But he doesn't have to listen to her feelings or her needs. He just has to ditch and come back when she is most vulnerable. Lather, rinse, repeat until she stops arguing because she knows what will happen and she knows how terrible it will make her feel (but she blames herself). 

 

There is a wide range of abusive behavior, from sexual to physical to emotional. I think that Sierra's story is a good example of how biblical submission/fundie-ism preps women to rationalize abuse. This happens to be emotional but I am sure it takes many forms depending on the couple in question.

This is why if Anna and Josh are seeing a fundie therapist I'm still not happy about it. What Sierra describes would be considered being open and having good communication skills to these people. He says all the right things, but they aren't solving anything. That's not real communication. I'm sure some girls wilt at the thought of their husbands coming back and saying things like "we love each other" and twirling her around. It sounds like a romcom. And he didn't hit her in his anger, so he can't be THAT bad, right? /s

Good communication skills means good apology skills. Not just "I'm sorry you feel that way." but "I'm sorry I hurt you. I'm sorry I upset you. What can I do to not do that in the future?"

I'm nervous that these people are getting fake skills. Skills that aren't really helpful. Like walk away when you're angry. Sure, that's a good tactic if you're about to get physically violent, but walking away isn't the same thing as coming to an agreement so that something like that never happens again. It's tool to use immediately so you can calm down enough to eventually talk it out. It's not a solution. And it's so clear that Sierra thinks it is, and I'm sure Anna and Josh are getting the same shit.

I'm not saying that some arguments can't be solved by getting some alone time. There are times where I'm grumpy and everything is making me mad and I just need to take a trip to Target to walk around. But when I come back I say I'm sorry for being a grump. I ask for forgiveness. I admit that I will probably be a grump in the future, but I will try my best to not let it affect me enough to get into petty arguments, and we move on. I'm a little sheepish for a while, but eventually we laugh about it.

[TheDuggarnaut]

12 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I believe they still suck at keeping clutter at bay. They just have a shit load of buildings to hold all of their crap.

Yes, that warehouse they have is ridiculous. The one they showed for the yard sale episode.

[apandaaries]

Ahh!  I just watched a CA clip on the TLC site.  It looks as though DerJill, Duggarlings, etc. are donating medical supplies to a nearby clinic.  That's fine, but then it appears that the doctor thanks them while Derick responds, "gracias a ti."  It's an edited clip, so I'm not totally sure if that's what took place, but FFS, Derick.  If that's how it was (and not how it was edited) you are addressing a doctor in a foreign land.  Use terms of respect.  Why not "gracias a usted"?  I shall hope against the odds that he was addressing a child walking by, and not the doctor, nor any other medical professional working there.  Shameful. 

[nastyhobbitses]

4 hours ago, amandaaries said:

Ahh!  I just watched a CA clip on the TLC site.  It looks as though DerJill, Duggarlings, etc. are donating medical supplies to a nearby clinic.  That's fine, but then it appears that the doctor thanks them while Derick responds, "gracias a ti."  It's an edited clip, so I'm not totally sure if that's what took place, but FFS, Derick.  If that's how it was (and not how it was edited) you are addressing a doctor in a foreign land.  Use terms of respect.  Why not "gracias a usted"?  I shall hope against the odds that he was addressing a child walking by, and not the doctor, nor any other medical professional working there.  Shameful. 

I don't know about the cultural norms in Presumably El Salvador, but in some Latin American/South American countries, using the "tú" form with someone you aren't intimate with/is older than you/is your professional superior is a massive no-no. I've also heard that in some places, conspicuously "tuteando" someone is a way of saying "I'm above you and therefore I can use informal ways to address you". Or "I'm flirting with you by acting like we're on more familiar terms than we actually are".

[ksgranola1]

On the subject of GMA Mary; Daughter Deanne is alone Hubby left, Amy married; seems pretty logical to me. I am Mary's age & heavy things like laundry and gaggles of whirling kids was ok 10 years ago. But now, I really prefer a comfortable chair and a book. Maybe Deanne was lonely & asked her mother to come keep her company.

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 hours ago, ksgranola1 said:

On the subject of GMA Mary; Daughter Deanne is alone Hubby left, Amy married; seems pretty logical to me. I am Mary's age & heavy things like laundry and gaggles of whirling kids was ok 10 years ago. But now, I really prefer a comfortable chair and a book. Maybe Deanne was lonely & asked her mother to come keep her company.

I would imagine no matter your age, anyone would prefer living with Deanna to a house full of screaming children. Even if they are you beloved grandkids. That's what's beautiful about grandchildren. You can play with them all day long and then send their wild asses home with mom and dad.

[lascuba]

18 hours ago, calimojo said:

I remember the episodes when JL was sick. There were some brief shots here and there of Mary caring for him and being quite tender with him.  And I remember one scene, where JB teared up, and I think held on to Jessa briefy while he composed himself.  It actually felt like a fairly genuine expression of his grief. 

 

That being said, I have often wondered if the negative comments about JB's dad were more to add drama to their backstory.  Michelle as the flirty teenager, tempting her neighbor, JB as the good son who had to overcome a bad relationship with his dad, and of course the Caleb story for why they stopped using birth control and started their crazy journey.

 

I do think it is interesting now, though that Mary is apparently not at the TTH anymore.  I wonder if that was before or after the scandals broke?  If it was after, I wonder if the scandals had anything to do with it?  We know that she wasn't displaced by Anna as we saw that she was bunking with the girls.  Perhaps, John has been allowed to have his own private room now as an enticement to keep him in the fold. 

 

 

That's always been my assumption. Fundies especially love to dramatize their life stories to make their "saved by Jesus" anecdotes pop more. It's why you have fundie teens going on about how they were saved from sin when they were 5 years old.