Lori Alexander - Still Not Learning A Thing, Part 5

[OnceUponATime]

1 hour ago, lilwriter85 said:

I'm looking at website of the church Loriken attend and they have a marriage and family pastor.

what church do they attend?

 

[samira_catlover]

3 hours ago, lilwriter85 said:

I'm guessing that if they are asked about credentials, Ken ends up mentioning that he has DVM degree from Biola. For some people, they do seek out counseling from ordained ministers even if those ministers don't have psychology backgrounds.

Doctor of Veterinary Medicine? 

[slickcat79]

5 minutes ago, samira_catlover said:

Doctor of Veterinary Medicine? 

I think MDiv is what they were going for, a divinity degree. Although I've never examined Ken's educational background myself...

[usmcmom]

4 minutes ago, samira_catlover said:

Doctor of Veterinary Medicine? 

Please God in Heaven...NO!  The thought of one of those people being near my precious snooky wooky kitty cat...I JUST CAN'T. 

I have always wondered how a man with a Masters of Divinity ended up as a consultant for orthodontists. I'm thinking $$$$$$$$$.

[2xx1xy1JD]

2 hours ago, usmcmom said:

This is also part of Ken's advice:

As is usually the case, when I read their blog; I'm confused.  Hasn't Lori written a post or two in which she states she is vehemently against psychology and conflict resolution tactics?  I seem to remember there was some back and forth with Sheila (of To Love, Honor and Vacuum) over this very thing. 

Suddenly, Ken is promoting these things? 

Oh, no, not at all.  Those are just fleshy tools.

He DOES promote self-discipline, with the emphasis on discipline.  He's also explained before that if the husband and wife are in fact "one flesh", then the husband disciplining the wife is part of self-discipline.  So, he'll make a faux reasonable argument to really suggest that it's fine for a husband to demand that his wife lose weight, account for her time, do more whatever, and then constantly monitor her compliance and dole out consequences if she fails.  NOT in agreement with Sheila, at all.

[lilwriter85]

10 hours ago, slickcat79 said:

I think MDiv is what they were going for, a divinity degree. Although I've never examined Ken's educational background myself...

I meant to type this. I was busy this morning lol.

11 hours ago, OnceUponATime said:

what church do they attend?

 

They attend North Coast Calvary Chapel in Carlsbad, CA. It's a mainstream type megachurch that doesn't seem too conservative. In the past that church promoted Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll stuff.

[feministxtian]

I used to attend a Calvary Chapel church...and I don't see them tolerating the kind of crap Lori spews. At the church I attended, there were women with MDivs on staff. That doesn't sound like something Lori would stand for...

I left the CC for quite a few reasons, but doctrine wasn't one of them. They're not fundamentalist, have a pretty balanced hold on the bible, and from what I remember no official position on marriage other than it has to be man/woman (not making a judgment call there), but egalitarian, patriarchal, complementarian...it didn't matter. 

[usmcmom]

8 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I used to attend a Calvary Chapel church...and I don't see them tolerating the kind of crap Lori spews. At the church I attended, there were women with MDivs on staff. That doesn't sound like something Lori would stand for...

I left the CC for quite a few reasons, but doctrine wasn't one of them. They're not fundamentalist, have a pretty balanced hold on the bible, and from what I remember no official position on marriage other than it has to be man/woman (not making a judgment call there), but egalitarian, patriarchal, complementarian...it didn't matter. 

This is one of the many things I just don't understand about Ken and Lori.  Lori seems to disparage their church quite a bit; yet they continue to go back each week (presumably).  If a church is so out of line with their beliefs, why keep going??  Do they do so to keep up appearances?  Is it "The" church to attend - kind of a status symbol?  Do they attend specifically so they can come home and talk about how wrong the leaders are? 

Of course there are probably many members there who ask the same thing when they speak to Ken and Lori: "Why are you even here?"

[Florita]

10 hours ago, lilwriter85 said:

I meant to type this. I was busy this morning lol.

They attend North Coast Calvary Chapel in Carlsbad, CA. It's a mainstream type megachurch that doesn't seem too conservative. In the past that church promoted Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll stuff.

They have switched churches. Lori said this in the comments 11/13/15:

Quote

We attended a Calvary Chapel for a while but have gone back to an Evangelical Free church since all of our family goes there. The program that both of these churches offer for those needing deliverance is called Celebrate Recovery. 

 

[lilwriter85]

1 hour ago, Florita said:

They have switched churches. Lori said this in the comments 11/13/15:

 

Interesting. I wonder if it is this one.

http://www.faithstreet.com/church/the-fields-carlsbad-california

[louisa05]

I attended two different Evangelical Free churches (long ago, granted). I can't see those churches lining up to Lori's nonsense either. At the one I went to in college, the associate pastor's wife had a full time job with two kids at home. Most of the women in the congregation worked as well.  I don't recall any modesty nonsense being talked about by anyone in either church, either. Nor was much attention given to complementarianism/wifely submission or gender roles. I'm not sure there was any official position about it. 

[slickcat79]

I am completely sure Lori is a totally different person IRL than the one she plays on her blog. It's a lot easier to spew her kind of garbage from behind a computer screen than to another person's face. It wouldn't surprise me if she were able to put up with a fair bit of "doctrinal difference" in exchange for a whole new flock to gossip about. You know she spends way more time judging the rest of the congregation than listening to the sermon or anything else.

That said, she wouldn't be able to keep her trap shut for long. I'm sure they church-hop a fair bit because Lori's gotten into another unrecoverable snit with the rest of the women. 

[lilwriter85]

4 minutes ago, slickcat79 said:

I am completely sure Lori is a totally different person IRL than the one she plays on her blog. It's a lot easier to spew her kind of garbage from behind a computer screen than to another person's face. It wouldn't surprise me if she were able to put up with a fair bit of "doctrinal difference" in exchange for a whole new flock to gossip about. You know she spends way more time judging the rest of the congregation than listening to the sermon or anything else.

That said, she wouldn't be able to keep her trap shut for long. I'm sure they church-hop a fair bit because Lori's gotten into another unrecoverable snit with the rest of the women. 

I doubt this would ever happen. It would be crazy if Ken and Lori became more extreme and moved to Arizona and joined PP's church.

[polecat]

38 minutes ago, lilwriter85 said:

I doubt this would ever happen. It would be crazy if Ken and Lori became more extreme and moved to Arizona and joined PP's church.

I can't see that ever happening. She wants to out-holy everyone, but Zsu is the real deal when it comes to hyper-fundamentalism. Lori is just a pathetically angry, vindictive wannabe fundy. 

[feministxtian]

I'll give her half a brownie point for mentioning Celebrate Recovery. My husband and I are both active in CR. Lori wouldn't like it though...the pastor who is the head of the ministry is an x-junkie, x-alcoholic with tons of tattoos and gages in his ears, who's also has an alphabet soup of letters after his name. He's been known to slip and drop a 4-letter word or three. Its full of junkies, alcoholics, sex addicts, people with tattoos, felony records, on probation, bikers, and people who are generally screwed up (yep, I'm one of those). Lori's bullshit would NEVER fly in CR...EVER. 

[Koala]

This is going to be a LONG post, but I fear Lori and Ken will eventually delete these comments.

The lady with the older kids who are having accidents commented again.  Ken gave his very NON expert advice (some of it involving spanking, which is horrifying when it's so obvious that these folks are wayyyyyy off the beaten path), but in the end he finally told them to get help and stop hitting their kids for soiling themselves.  He even admits at one point that if spanking isn't effective they should try something else.

Ken gives shitty advice, but I am grateful that Lori wasn't allowed to escalate the abuse these kids are clearly already experiencing.  This would have been another of her "if you hit hard enough, it will work" posts.

On the other hand, Ken is advocating for repeat spanking every time they come out of the closet.  I have no idea why the hell he would suggest these loons put their kids in a closet, so there's that.

Reader:

Quote

Choosing happiness is the hardest one for me. My children are poorly trained, smacking does not seem to do anything as they repeat the misbehaviour, my house, if not in a constant state of mess, when I try to clean it, they go along behind me and mess it up again, they scream,whine,fight(sometimes quite physical) tattle, raid my pantry and then whine when we run out of food. (They get thru childproof locks, go figure) my 10 year old and six year old Ds mess themselves several times a day and at night. ( no medical reason found) the older ones are really behind on schoolwork, (we spend so much time cleaning and trying to find schoolwork that it is often too late in the day to do it) they break everything, irrespective of who it belongs to, they call each other names etc, etc. I find it impossible to find any joy or happiness. I'd train my younger kids first. But my older ones desperately need it too. My husband has left it all up to me as he cant cope anymore. And I feel so weak in so many areas that I can't do it on my own. I have no other support. My kids will behave and even stay clean and dry for other adults. But muck up a treat for my husband and I. They are quicker to obey him cause he is more forceful. I try to be more firm. But it never seems to be firm enough to have an effect. Our marriage is ok. At least in the bedroom. But can be tense when it comes to the house or kids. I desperately want things to improve. But at a loss for where to start. We have ttuac and most resources from mike and Debi,but it all seems overwhelming, especially when you have to do it on your own with a large number of children. I do my bible study and prayer each morning. And occasionally listen to mike preaching. I would love to be happy. But I think it's hiding from me lol.

Ken's (long effing winded advice):

Quote

Wow Anonymous! This sounds like you have quite a challenge on your hands. 

I would be curious to know where this all begins because it doesn't happen overnight to get to this place. Can I assume you never were able to gain control of #1 then #2 child then rest just followed along? 

Regardless you have quite a challenge now, but all can be restored IF you and your husband get on the same page and use firm and consistent discipline. I suggest you both get together and pray about this, and think about what your lives are going to look like in their teen years if you cannot consistently enforce discipline. That ugly potential needs to motivate you two to sit the kids down and spend an hour or so laying down the ground rules and the consequences that are coming if they do not strictly adhere to these new standards. Show the the "time out" area where the child will go that has nothing for them to do but sit there. Maybe clean out a couple of closets and leave the doors open, but make them sit there and miss out on family life for any misbehavior, and let the time frame fit the crime. 

Try to have lots of fun things the family is doing together this weekend. Their favorite foods, their favorite movies, games, everything they like to do and start in with doing them. Give one reminder each time they break the new standard then tell the offender to go to the time out area for 5, or 10 minutes with each infraction. You may need 2-4 time out areas, but each time they are missing out on family life. Maybe as soon as one gets in trouble, all the others are rewarded with a treat for being good and not having to be sent to time out. 

Have treats set out that they get each hour they are well behaved and have no time outs. When the ones who went to time out have to watch the others all enjoy their hourly treat and not get anything they will start thinking twice about acting out. 

One or more will test you, and come out of the closet and not stay put. Mom and dad both take them into a room and give them a sound spanking with Dad's hand on their bottom. then put them back in time out. If they come out again, repeat the spanking and back to time out. If one parent has to sit in the closet insuring that the child completes their time out, take that time to talk about obedience and love and discipline and try reasoning with the child. In no way let get out of serving the consequences once you give them. 

This exercise may test you both parents, but I can't believe that if the two of you will show a consistent united front ... make this weekend a fun time for the kids for training in discipline for those who behave, and consistent discipline for those who do not behave, but back into family time when they have paid their penance. 

It is so important that when you bring the child back out of time out that you ask them what they did wrong and make sure they understand clearly what it was, and agree not to do it again this weekend. If they do, the consequences must escalate, and if spankings are ineffective, find other creative and reasonable consequences. 

Don't underestimate the power of positive reinforcement. Give treats regularly to those who are behaving and watch the power of a few M & M's or other treats. But be careful with too much sugar and search for sugar free alternatives. Some kids are out of control because their diet is awful. You can't give a kid a can of Coke then fault them for going wild. 

I am sorry to say, but these kids are their parents responsibility and you are not loving them properly if you are letting them get away with regular disobedience. You must set proper and consistent standards and have consistent consequences for each time they misbehave. You must win so they cannot win, but everything I read in what you write tells me you and your husband gave up some time back. It is not an option to give up on the training of our children if we are Christians. You and your husband have no greater purpose or service to the Lord than to love your children, and loving them means training them to live disciplined obedient lives. You also cannot say you do not have the strength to train consistently as God tells us He will never test us beyond what we are capable of doing, but will give us the strength we need. There is NOTHING more important now than gaining the upper hand so you can gain control of your children. You have proven then can behave because they do so around others, but they have found their parents to be weak and the are taking advantage of this.

cont... 
If there is a godly family with well behaved kids that lives near you, go there with your family and do with your children exactly what they tell you to do if the child misbehaves. I can tell you that with all the consistent consequences I am advocating, nothing is more important than talking to your children and reasoning with them as best you can, especially after disciplining them. It should all end in a good talk and hugs and loves. My kids often got 10-15 minute lectures sitting on Dad's lap after misbehaving. No yelling or put downs, I was often laughing with them as I explained clearly to them that they will never win. Mom and Dad will ALWAYS win when it comes to their misbehavior so it is best to start behaving and get the treats and blessings that come from it. 

I hope this is helpful to you and please get into Lori's Facebook chat room where hundreds of godly women can help coach and motivate you. Your kids will rise up and call their parents blessed if you train them to lead disciplined well behaved lives or may grow up to resent you if you do not. God would not have given you these precious gifts if you were not capable of doing this important work in their lives. Have 3-4 weekends like I have suggested and get Dad on board to be consistent with you and you will win their minds and hearts, and then their good behavior will soon follow. Keep it going during the week, and use treats a lot to motivate.

The mom replies:

Quote

Thankyou Ken, 
I have some ideas of the standards my husband wants set. But I feel that, for now. They might be a little high. He tries to spend quality time with our sons, but usually he returns home early because at least one of them have soiled themselves. I have asked him 'how do you think I best deal with x child?' And he just responds he doesn't know. I think part of my problem is my emotions get in the way and I question if I am making the right choice when I choose to spank. Or am I being too harsh. Or because there's so many of them I they manage to slip away unnoticed. And then I have to go search them out. My husband has also been known to call me from the other end of the house, where I am busy, to spank a child for something he saw them do. It frustrates me. And I've told him so. (Respectfully) and asked him if he saw the misdeed and I am busy, could he please be the one to deliver the spanking. And refrain from calling me. (Unless he is genuinely unable to do it himself) I've been reading To train up a child again and I'm praying about what to do. Thankyou for your advice Ken. I'm ashamed to admit I live in constant fear the authorities will come and step in if things don't change.(as in child services) and I can't stand it. I know this post was about marriage. But for me these are issues that can strain a marriage, if not dealt with properly. 
God bless

Ken replies again:
 

Quote

I am sympathetic to your plight and as you have more than one child with daytime wetting themselves I suggest you visit the doctor, and child psychologist. For sure do all the research you can on the Internet and try various recommendations. The possibility exists that there is something physical going on that the children can't help, so disciplining them for this is probably not appropriate. It is enough punishment just to have to deal with the aftermath embarrassment, so understanding is essential. 

It makes no sense for a husband to call his wife to discipline a child. You must try to get him on board to be the primary disciplinarian when he is around the kids. It might be better to do the other way around and you call him to discipline a child when he is home as the kids will shape up much faster if Mom can say, "wait until your Dad gets home," when the kids are misbehaving. 

So what makes you think Dad is out of line with the discipline standards he wants. So long as he is in there disciplining with you, generally you should be following his lead. Is that maybe part of the issue that you think he may be too tough, so he backs off and lets you handle things alone? 

I wish you the best. Find some good counselors on this and read the breathe of professional information on the wetting issues. Your story is nothing I have heard of before, so I can't help more than to tell you to stay consistent and don't give up on your precious gifts. They may seem a bit difficult now, but keep loving them and doing the best you can. It is amazing how well many kids turn out in spite of poor discipline training at a young age. We have to leave room for God's intervention to protect his children. Keep teaching them about Jesus as He rescues us all. These younger years will be over quickly.

Ken, you could have saved yourself a LOT of typing by telling her to seek professional help in the first place.

Another reader suggests that perhaps the children are being abused:

Quote

I'm sorry that you are having a hard time. This situations seems like it may not be able to be fixed just through advice from a blog or even through friends. The situation seems out of control and it must be solved if your children have any chance. I think that Ken is right that the children, especially the 2 oldest, must be seen by a doctor and a child psychologist to get to the bottom of them soiling themselves. I'm worried that they children could possibly be being abused and they are soiling themselves. This reaction is common in these types of situations. The abuser could be a family member, close friends or even their father and you may not be aware of it. At this point you must do right by your children and get them the help they need and not "try" to fix the problem. If your husband is not on board with helping or try to hind your children from getting help from outside people then this is a time when you must override him because your children needs have to be taken care of. I hope that you get the help that you need and immediately. If you go to your family doctor, they should have advice or recommendation for psychological help in your area

The mom replies:

Quote

Hi Emily, 
Thankyou for your concern. Firstly. I am 99% sure there is no sexual abuse going on. The children spend most of their hours with me, as their father is working. If they go on play dates we supervise and give strict instructions they are not allowed to move out of our sight. They don't have sleepovers and quite frankly the whole idea angers and repulses our family. And I've taught my children to yell and tell. (But I'm ok with you asking.:-) ) My oldest son has always had a melancholy personality. From the time he was a baby. And always seems to learn things the hard way. He was born during a difficult period in our marriage and there was a lot of tension. I tend to think it's emotional. We really struggle with him and he is one of those hard to love or like kids.so ithink he is craving positive attention. The 6 year old I think in part because he is copying big brother. It's a coping/attention mechanism. Both are sweet boys and when they behave they are such a joy to be around. My husband is a Godly man, hardworking, and really wants to spend time with the kids. But he just struggles when they act up. He controls them better than I do. But as a perfectionist he struggles with their destructiveness. He just wants to enjoy his kids and I tend to think it's me who needs to brush up on the parenting skills. Which is odd cause I'm the one who reads all the parenting books. But putting it into practise is another matter. I give up too easily. Other than than the occasional odd parenting technique, my husband is the better parent. 

Sorry if I've hijacked your post Ken. That wasn't my intention.

Again, sorry for the long post, but Ken and Lori have no business doling out advice in such a serious situation.

[Florita]

9 hours ago, lilwriter85 said:

Interesting. I wonder if it is this one.

http://www.faithstreet.com/church/the-fields-carlsbad-california

Based on FB "likes" by Lori & family I think it is this one: http://seacoast-church.org/

[OnceUponATime]

9 hours ago, Koala said:

Again, sorry for the long post, but Ken and Lori have no business doling out advice in such a serious situation.

So right. And if they want to give advise it should be along the lines of 1) see some more professionals 2) think about putting your oldest kids in school for a year to give yourself a breather - you seem overwhelmed 3) go to a professional to get some help

[VodouDoll]

My god! Those people need to get their kids to a child psychologist stat. Family therapy and parenting classes would not be amiss either. Why haven't they DONE that yet? Don't they want to help their kids? If your ten year old regularly has to be brought home from outings early because he's shit his pants, that child is positively SCREAMING for help. What kind of parents care more about avoiding CPS than helping their obviously troubled son? I'm so upset and disturbed.

[older than allosaurs]

I so hope that this mother is writing to other godly mentors besides Lori. Perhaps someone else is giving her the counsel she desperately needs. Or maybe someone will recognize the family from the description and start calling local authorities.

[Koala]

The same woman posted in early November:

Quote

Hi Lori, 
I have 8 children. The oldest is 12 and the youngest is 20 months. I regret to say that I have not trained them properly. Pretty much everything that comes into my house gets broken by the kids, food gets taken without asking for it, my 7 year old,4 year old 3 year old and almost 2 year old are screamers, I have children that have been potty trained but refuse to keep themselves clean, and they are old enough to know better, (and yes, we have made sure it's not a medical issue), they refuse to help with chores except my 12 year old. And even then has enough of helping once in a while, I'm constantly breaking up fights, my 5 year old is a tattle tale. And about half of I'my kids are habitual liars. And we struggle to get thru schoolwork each day. As my house is constantly a mess and we have to clean before we can do anything, except cleaning takes all day. And then it doesn't look like we have done much at the end of the day. I'm all for smacking, but I get to a point where I feel like an ogre or I'm asking too much of them for their age. Or I'm being unfair. Or that I am smacking too much. And some vindictive friends have reported us to Dhs ( they made up a bunch of false accusations and I found out later it was because they were jealous of our family size) before and they were so harsh it has left me extreemly nervous. They never found anything as there was nothing to find. But it really affected me and I don't want to go thru that again. This is an issue I really want resolved, but I don't know where to start. I have read to train up a child,created to be his helpmeet, listened to Michael pearls starting over, read raising Godly tomatoes and I'm just left feeling overwhelmed. When I try and put it into practise I'm left feeling exhausted and extreemly emotional by lunchtime. My husband has asked that I keep the kids sitting up at the table but then one of them will ask to go to the bathroom, so I escort them to make sure that a) they aren't lying and they come back. While I am doing that, all the younger ones up and leave the table and I end up chasing them around the backyard trying to get them inside. By that time the older ones have left the table and I have to start all over again. I have tried offering rewards for good behaviour but it's like they don't care. I agree with all you said, but putting it into practise is so hard. And that's only a few issues we have! My husband is stricter than I but I sometimes feel like he is being too harsh or makes a bad judgement call without knowing the full story beforehand. Any encouragement or wisdom would be great.

Lori seizes the opportunity to brag on herself:

Quote

The key is to train and discipline them when they are young. Each of our children only had one temper tantrum. Ken and I dealt with the first one swiftly and refused to let them continue having a tantrum. They learned quickly that this behavior was not tolerated in our home and never had another one. It took a lot of time and consistency but it was SO worth it. They learned that what we said we meant. You must ALWAYS follow through with your discipline. Children know if their parents mean what they say and what they can get away with. Our children learned from a very young age that we were boss. Your children have not learned this valuable lesson and this is why you struggle

Seriously, that's her reply.  She never says another word.  Never even mentions getting professional help.  I guess in Lori Land it's totally normal for a 10 and 5 year old to be soiling themselves.

More from the mother:

Quote

My husband packed up all their toys long ago, as he was sick of them breaking them or fighting over them.

.

Quote

We are probably the strictest family around. 

.

Quote

I'm not sure how to deal with the boys that mess themselves. They are 5 and almost 10. My husband says to smack them several times and then ask them to clean up their mess and have a shower.

 

[VodouDoll]

Their son is regularly shitting himself, and they smack him around for it instead of trying to understand why and get him therapy, yet the neighbors turned them in to CPS because they were jealous of their family size? Oh, I'm sure that was it.

 

Christ Almighty. This is terrible. Those poor children. And it sounds like she's not educating them either because she's decided it's more important to clean all day? What is the matter with this couple? The fact that she's asking a couple of bloggers for help instead of a psychologist shows that she has terrible, terrible judgment.

[Koala]

Yes, she mentioned twice that she cleans all day in favor of schooling the children.  She also seems very concerned with them "stealing food" and monitoring their trips to the bathroom.  

There are 8 kids involved.  According to her they soil themselves, break everything in sight, fight each other, scream, and steal.  Why on earth would anyone be jealous?  No it's much more likely that they were horrified by the situation and were trying to get intervention for the children.
This whole situation highlights the fact that Lori is either:

A ) Unable to recognize abuse

B ) Recognizes abuse and doesn't care.  

Either way, she has no business doling out parenting/marriage advice.

[polecat]

Something is going terribly wrong in that household. Just reading about it makes my skin crawl -- it sounds utterly chaotic on so many levels, and children of that age having daytime toileting accidents is absolutely not normal unless there is a serious medical or emotional problem. Kids don't WANT to soil themselves, ffs. She may not want CPS involved, but I think they NEED to be involved if for no other reason than to get those kids the resources to which they are entitled. These children have a RIGHT to be raised in a safe, secure, healthy environment. And mom needs to get that through her thick skull and get some help for them. (And I'm not entirely convinced dad isn't more culpable than mom believes -- a kid on a fun outing with dad isn't going to ruin that fun by shitting himself unless there's a darn good reason for it.)

 

eta: And that tattletale thing bugs me. She repeatedly calls him a tattletale. Reminds me of the whole Josh Duggar thing. *shudder

 

[Koala]

9 minutes ago, polecat said:

 

eta: And that tattletale thing bugs me. She repeatedly calls him a tattletale. Reminds me of the whole Josh Duggar thing. *shudder

 

Makes me wonder what he/she's telling that mom doesn't want to hear.  

It sounds like the kids have been abused.  The day and nighttime soiling in multiple older children sends up all kinds of red flags for me.

I think mom is totally checked out.  It's easier to clean a house than to figure out how to care for/educate 8 children.  Something is wayyyyy off, but Lori's main concern was bragging on herself.

It's awful.